12-05-17 11:31 AM
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  1. conite's Avatar
    @BurningPlatform, how do you explain the thousands upon thousands of Z10 returns in the first few months? Ads were everywhere on TV (keep moving). There was a lot of hype, but the apps weren't there.

    Also, explain this: Netflix and Instagram (and countless others) did not even bother spending 5 minutes to port their ALREADY WORKING apps to BB10.

    The fact is, developers were not interested in a third ecosystem. Period. Full stop.
    01-05-17 05:01 PM
  2. tre10's Avatar
    BB10 devices weren't selling because hardly anyone knew they existed. An overwhelming majority of people I ever showed my Z10 to were SHOCKED that such a device and OS existed as it was the first time ever they've seen or heard anything about it. Not just in 2013, but also in 2014 or 2015. General awareness about BB10 was so poor that even in 2016 when I was buying a screen protector for my wive's Z10, people in the company selling them were amazed that it was running BlackBerry's own OS as they always thought it was an Android phone and they never had it in their hands. And when now in late 2016 or 2017 I show my Passport to people, it is the first time they see it as they have not seen it ever before in any commercial, newspaper, web ad, etc. Shortly speaking, hardly anyone knew anything about such a thing as "BB10". So how could people be buying something they didn't even know it existed at all, let alone ever having been told what advantages it can offer them.

    For an average Android or iOS user, "BB10" has always meant JUST AS LITTLE as the tiny Jolla / Sailfish OS. No difference whatsoever, same sh*tty promotion and no attempts to ever let them know anything more than that and thus ever get interested to even just check it out.

    With such DISASTROUS promotion during the ENTIRE BB10 lifetime right from the beginning (and ESPECIALLY at the beginning), it is actually a miracle that BlackBerry sold even what it sold.



    I did not negate that it was a financial disaster. I only insist that it wasn't because of anything related to the OS itself, but because of absolutely no promotion. BlackBerry did NOTHING to make everyone know that such a thing existed and to make them willing at least to try it and see what it is. My memory serves me well and I do remember how literally everyone I showed my BB10 phone to was seeing it for the first time in his life. It was so in 2013, 2014, and not much changed even by today.

    As for lack of apps, just as I wrote, if you choose to have Android compatibility on your new platform then you must realize that you are putting all native developers in an AWFUL position, because even before they can release their very first native app they are already facing competition with MILLIONS of Android apps, most of them already established and famous, extremely cheap (due to the Android market being so huge and thus allowing such low prices) and so on. Add to it an app store that never distinguished or promoted native apps over Android ones in ANY way, instantly got flooded with tens of thousands of Android rubbish making lots of native apps almost undiscoverable (and thus unsellable), and on top of that - as if it wasn't enough - BlackBerry's DISASTROUS policy to mostly only feature a few chosen Elite developers on the Carousel, and you get the full picture. It was a competition that most of developers on such a new and small platform just COULDN'T BEAR, so they quit. Again, absolutely nothing to do with the product itself, but solely because of horrible strategy.

    Right after I ported my apps from the already discontinued and DYING Symbian and MeeGo to BB10, I was amazed that what on the dead Symbian and tiny MeeGo was still selling in hundreds of copies a month, on BB10 was bringing.... $10 revenue a month. Very quickly I realized that it was so because simply no one could find my apps burried under TONS of Android junk. BlackBerry NEVER promoted any of them until late 2015 or so when I managed to establish some PERSONAL contacts with them so they never appeared on the Carousel, and finding them by an average user was mission impossible.

    Every new platform with Android compatibility is simply DOOMED to fail when it comes to development of native apps, as it makes it totally unprofitable, unless native apps are extraordinarily supported and strongly promoted (e.g. clearly distinguished / favorized in the app store). And unless the OS maker right at launch invests enough money into simply paying all important social media vendors and online services to provide native clients and always keep them up to date. It's the LEAST an OS vendor just HAS to do if it intends to offer Android compatibility, otherwise it is just GUARANTEED that development of native apps will just collapse under unbearable Android apps competition.

    While Android compatibility initially looks as such new platforms' SAVIOR (as in general opinion it allows to have lots of apps from the start) and a simple recipe for success, in a longer term it prevents such platforms from ever having a decent number of native apps and because of that it eventually kills them.
    Some visual aides for conite's point on marketing.





    How does one miss those billboards? I can also provide links to video ads if you need
    01-05-17 06:36 PM
  3. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    @BurningPlatform, how do you explain the thousands upon thousands of Z10 returns in the first few months? Ads were everywhere on TV (keep moving). There was a lot of hype, but the apps weren't there.
    Thousands upon thousands... what number is that on a market with well over billion Android devices? Even tiny Jolla sells (and probably also gets back) "thousands upon thousands", i.e. nothing. Small sales and even smaller returns. And I dare to say that many of the returns were actually caused by small sales as people simply didn't want to have a niche product, and not because they didn't like the actual OS or device.

    As for ads, maybe it was so in your country. In lots of European countries (where a few hundred million people live) there were none whatsoever.

    Also, explain this: Netflix and Instagram (and countless others) did not even bother spending 5 minutes to port their ALREADY WORKING apps to BB10.
    Quite simply, this is yet another negative phenomenon of Android compatibility. If an Android version kind of works (usually much worse than a native app would do, but still), companies don't see it worth their time to make (and then have to maintain) a native one. But if Android version couldn't be used then they would have made a native one, like they had to do for Windows Phone.

    The fact is, developers were not interested in a third ecosystem. Period. Full stop.
    Worn out slogan. I am a developer, I know lots of developers. I know what I and lots of my colleagues were or were not interested in. I knew dozens of developers who moved to BB10 from Symbian and MeeGo, and I know why they eventually gave up on BB10.

    Developing for a new platform like BB10 (as long as it is not harmed by Android compatibility and therefore having to compete with millions of Android apps) can actually be MUCH MORE PROFITABLE than trying luck on any of the huge platforms, where every app you could make already has its equivalent and first you need to work your fingers to the bones to even just be noticed in that Google or iOS app store filled up with apps (of which 80% no one has ever found and downloaded even just once). Whereas, on the contrary, on a new platform people are hungry for new apps and as it is just the beginning it is much easier to make people know about you and your apps. If only you are not being permanently scared away by unbearable competition with Android apps, and native apps not being in any way favorized and promoted, that is.

    Belive me, on a new platform with 1 million users hungry for apps it is often much EASIER to have yourself discovered and therefore sell much more copies than on a platform with 1 billion users but so crowded with developers and apps that no one will even notice your and your apps' existence unless you first spend $100,000 on promoting yourself.

    I thought it's obvious, but apparently not.
    Last edited by BurningPlatform; 01-05-17 at 08:37 PM.
    stlabrat and Daniel Montanaro like this.
    01-05-17 08:13 PM
  4. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    How does one miss those billboards? I can also provide links to video ads if you need
    Believe me, the US of A is not the whole world. Try to find a picture of such billboard from 2013 from e.g. any Central or Eastern European country, Russia, most of South America, etc. For a global success it takes global advertising, not just the US.
    qmishery likes this.
    01-05-17 08:16 PM
  5. early2bed's Avatar
    I did not negate that it was a financial disaster. I only insist that it wasn't because of anything related to the OS itself, but because of absolutely no promotion. BlackBerry did NOTHING to make everyone know that such a thing existed and to make them willing at least to try it and see what it is. My memory serves me well and I do remember how literally everyone I showed my BB10 phone to was seeing it for the first time in his life. It was so in 2013, 2014, and not much changed even by today.
    So, out of all those people who you showed your BB10 phone to over the past three years, how many of them went out and bought one? You obviously took care of the awareness issue for them and presumably told them all about what they were missing. If that's all that was needed then you should be surrounded by BB10 users.
    01-05-17 08:22 PM
  6. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Thousands upon thousands... what number is that on a market with well over billion Android devices? Even tiny Jolla sells (and probably also gets back) "thousands upon thousands", i.e. nothing. Small sales and even smaller returns. And I dare to say that many of the returns were actually caused by small sales as people simply didn't want to have a niche product, and not because they didn't like the actual OS or device.

    As for ads, maybe it was so in your country. In lots of European countries (where a few hundred million people live) there were none whatsoever.



    Quite simply, this is yet another negative phenomenon of Android compatibility. If an Android version kind of works (usually much worse than a native app would do, but still), companies don't see it worth their time to make (and then have to maintain) a native one. But if Android version couldn't be used then they would have made a native one, like they had to do for Windows Phone.


    Worn out slogan. I am a developer, I know lots of developers. I know what I and lots of my colleagues were or were not interested in. I knew dozens of developers who moved to BB10 from Symbian and MeeGo, and I know why they eventually gave up on BB10.

    Developing for a new platform like BB10 (as long as it is not harmed by Android compatibility and therefore having to compete with millions of Android apps) can actually be MUCH MORE PROFITABLE than trying luck on any of the huge platforms, where every app you could make already has its equivalent and first you need to work your fingers to the bones to even just be noticed in that Google or iOS app store filled up with apps (of which 80% no one has ever found and downloaded even just once). Whereas, on the contrary, on a new platform people are hungry for new apps and as it is just the beginning it is much easier to make people know about you and your apps. If only you are not being permanently scared away by unbearable competition with Android apps, and native apps not being in any way favorized and promoted, that is.

    Belive me, on a new platform with 1 million users hungry for apps it is often much EASIER to break through and therefore sell much more copies than on a platform with 1 billion users but so crowded with developers and apps that no one will even notice your and your apps' existence unless you first spend $100,000 on promoting yourself.

    I thought it's obvious, but apparently not.
    C'mon.

    If there was money to be had developing for BB10, developers would have flocked to it.

    Developers aren't stupid. You're a developer, so you know this.

    Developing for BB10 just didn't make sense for most developers, understandably so. Of course, the port-a-thons were YUGE successes for devs that had the compunction to post scores of, uh, city guide apps LOL.
    DrBoomBotz likes this.
    01-05-17 08:40 PM
  7. conite's Avatar
    Sorry @BurningPlatform, history has proven you wrong on every point.
    01-05-17 10:11 PM
  8. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    So, out of all those people who you showed your BB10 phone to over the past three years, how many of them went out and bought one? You obviously took care of the awareness issue for them and presumably told them all about what they were missing. If that's all that was needed then you should be surrounded by BB10 users.
    Why would anyone buy a phone only because it was shown to them by some guy on the street for the first (and last) time in their live, i.e. that they couldn't see anywhere else because its own maker didn't love it enough to promote it? People will only buy what they can see that the MANUFACTURER loves and properly supports, i.e. what they can see well advertised, supported and talked about. They DID love the design and UI, they DID NOT like the complete lack of support.

    C'mon.
    If there was money to be had developing for BB10, developers would have flocked to it.
    YES, there was no money in developing for BB10 because availability of zillions of free or extremely cheap Android apps made native development uprofitable. As I already said, haven't I?

    Developers aren't stupid. You're a developer, so you know this.
    Yes, I am a developer so I know the reasons. If BB10 wasn't Android-compatible, I would have been selling 50x more copies a day. Just like it was the case e.g. on tiny MeeGo (Nokia N9), i.e. a one-device platform with around 2 million users in total in its best time, yet bringing incomparably more sales due to *no* Android compatibility and therefore all users only buying native apps.

    Developing for BB10 just didn't make sense for most developers
    Did I ever say anything else? Of course it didn't, due to the flood of Android apps. If one was forced to compete with Android apps, then he preferred to do it on Android itself.

    Sorry @BurningPlatform, history has proven you wrong on every point.
    At least I am honest and I say what I think. As opposed to all those who stopped praising (and started bashing) BB10 overnight, right after Chen told them that Android is now the way to go. You guys go check what you were writing even just two years ago, and stop pretending that history hasn't proved you wrong, too.

    It looked the same on Symbian, where e.g. the AllaboutSymbian website still considered Symbian the best mobile OS on this planet even just one day before the infamous Elop memo, and the next day they had an illumination, launched AllAboutWindowsPhone site and wrote that Symbian was obsolete and Windows Phone was the future.

    Over & out.
    Last edited by BurningPlatform; 01-06-17 at 12:00 AM.
    Fool Guy, stlabrat and G_Unit MVP like this.
    01-05-17 11:33 PM
  9. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    G_d these threads

    The never ending hatred for Chen, and fantasizing of ways BB10 could have, would have.

    The only thing officially dead, is the horse! BB10 will continue it's IV drip, simply because it has to.
    01-05-17 11:44 PM
  10. conite's Avatar
    At least I am honest and I say what I think. As opposed to all those who stopped praising (and started bashing) BB10 the very day Chen told them that Android is now the way to go. You guys go check what you were writing even just two years ago, and stop pretending that history hasn't proved you wrong, too.

    Over & out.
    I don't bash BB10. I quite like it, and have several devices that I still use.

    But talking about the business case of BB10 is a different story entirely.

    The BlackBerry board of directors wanted to shift to software. Chen was hired specifically to accomplish that because of his software pedigree. He has done what he was hired to do.

    BlackBerry Android is just another revenue source for BlackBerry through licencing and app sales.

    BB10 has no redeeming marketable value.
    01-05-17 11:45 PM
  11. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    The BlackBerry board of directors wanted to shift to software. Chen was hired specifically to accomplish that because of his software pedigree. He has done what he was hired to do.
    But that's exactly what I fully agreed with already some 5 posts ago. I wrote that I did not intend to say that it was first of all Chen and just Chen (just like at Nokia it wasn't just Elop), only that it could be clearly seen already in early 2014 that development of BB10 suddenly froze, and therefore already at that time they must have had alternative goals, be it Android or anything else.

    The only difference is that I believe that BB10 could have been saved if marketed and supported in a wholly different way, whereas everyone else says that it was dead before it was born.

    Also, I did fully agree that it was very unfortunate that it came out so late, as if it came out a year earlier then an ARMY of Nokia users desperately looking for a new platform would have switched to it rather than to Android, simply because it resembled Symbian much more than anything else and it was also technically similar (Qt based like Symbian and MeeGo). There were hundreds of millions of Symbian users (they nearly DOUBLED Android marketshare due to not having any other choice), so it would have given BB10 an enormous boost right from the start.

    That's all.

    BB10 has no redeeming marketable value.
    I do not deny that, either. It's just that I think that in 2013 or even by the end of 2014 it still wasn't too late to revert it. It wouldn't have been easy or cheap, but doable. But it needed doing a lot more than just the Passport + rehousing the remaining models.

    Anyway, doesn't matter. It's gone now.
    01-06-17 12:52 AM
  12. conite's Avatar
    It's just that I think that in 2013 or even by the end of 2014 it still wasn't too late to revert it. It wouldn't have been easy or cheap, but doable.
    This is where our opinions differ. I believe the battle was lost in 2010 - 3 years before BB10 was launched.

    Developers had no compelling reason to support more than two ecosystems. They could reach over 95% of the world with just 2 apps (now 99.9%).
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    01-06-17 01:06 AM
  13. tegar ramadhanu kariadinata's Avatar
    Im Blackberry lover about 5 years use it

    Posted via CB10
    01-06-17 01:16 AM
  14. joeldf's Avatar
    Regarding those photos of those big billboards, i have no idea where those were taken, but I never saw them. If it was New York, we'll that's fine for the few million that live there. What about the remaining rest of the country - or rest of the world.

    I sure couldn't see those billboards from South Louisiana. No matter how hard I tried.

    Posted via CB10
    Fret Madden likes this.
    01-06-17 01:56 AM
  15. cgk's Avatar
    In the UK - the Z10 was a hero phone for one of our largest networks - ads everywhere, big POS displays in stores, decent incentives.

    It still died.

    It's just revisionist history to claim it wasn't promoted - it was, people just didn't want it. At that point, BBRY realise this and start pivoting because they have no other option.

    BB10 (AKA 'The value killer') has never been anything but an disaster from a business point of view, a slow moving car-crash.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    01-06-17 03:15 AM
  16. early2bed's Avatar
    Why would anyone buy a phone only because it was shown to them by some guy on the street for the first (and last) time in their live, i.e. that they couldn't see anywhere else because its own maker didn't love it enough to promote it? People will only buy what they can see that the MANUFACTURER loves and properly supports, i.e. what they can see well advertised, supported and talked about. They DID love the design and UI, they DID NOT like the complete lack of support.
    OK, so BlackBerry didn't just have to let people know that they still exist. They also needed to promote it in the worldwide markets, maintain support infrastructure comparable to the big boys, get it talked about in the tech media as well as the consumer media, maybe open BlackBerry stores in major cities, and get all of the carriers to support them. It sounds like Prem Watsa just wasn't willing to write that check just so that everyone could have the smartphone you preferred..

    Then, they need a magical walled garden app ecosystem that simultaneously has all of the apps that users want inside but keeps out competition for developers. In other words, all of the benefits of competition without the actual competition.
    Last edited by early2bed; 01-06-17 at 03:54 AM.
    01-06-17 03:42 AM
  17. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    In the UK - the Z10 was a hero phone for one of our largest networks - ads everywhere, big POS displays in stores, decent incentives.

    It still died.

    It's just revisionist history to claim it wasn't promoted - it was, people just didn't want it. At that point, BBRY realise this and start pivoting because they have no other option.

    BB10 (AKA 'The value killer') has never been anything but an disaster from a business point of view, a slow moving car-crash.
    I mostly agree.

    I find it interesting that we still find the same excuses for BB10's failure (JC, no advertising, big bad Google/Apple, etc), and the biggest reason -- that folks just didn't find it compelling/competitive when compared to other offerings -- is ignored.

    BB10 did get advertised. We can argue about the efficacy of the campaigns, but it did get face time. I also agree, right about then, I believe BBRY began to realize that the leak was becoming catastrophic.
    Fret Madden and stlabrat like this.
    01-06-17 03:47 AM
  18. Fret Madden's Avatar
    And it was a lie, because he did not make Android secure even by today Of which monthly security patches are the best proof.
    Some of Android's vulnerabilities are software-based, yes; let's not overlook that there's also hardware vulnerabilities. Whenever there's problems found in Qualcomm chips running Android, Google patches it and pushes out updates. They don't push out updates for BB10 devices running Qualcomm chips though. Avenues through root access are denied in BB10 but anything the version 4.3 runtime has access to is vulnerable - it will never see an update. And not everyone is using BlackBerry World, Amazon, or Cobalt's Google Play Store method, they're using malware-ridden repositories like 1mobile and others.

    Android can never be as secure as OS10.
    The reason for that is: Google.
    You can only provide maximum security with an own OS.
    BlackBerry has no control over the OS itself and will never know if there are 'secret' backdoors in it.

    They may be able to make it pretty maleware and virus proof, but that's it.

    Posted via CB10
    Android is open-source. Anyone, including yourself, can look over the code for flaws and errors. Google pays well for it.

    If BB10 can make the claim that it's secure, then Android can as well. On the flip side of the coin, BB10 can be just as vulnerable as people claim Android is for the exact same reasons - stupidity and carelessness.
    stlabrat likes this.
    01-06-17 03:51 AM
  19. Fret Madden's Avatar
    Thousands upon thousands... what number is that on a market with well over billion Android devices? Even tiny Jolla sells (and probably also gets back) "thousands upon thousands", i.e. nothing. Small sales and even smaller returns. And I dare to say that many of the returns were actually caused by small sales as people simply didn't want to have a niche product, and not because they didn't like the actual OS or device.

    Quite simply, this is yet another negative phenomenon of Android compatibility. If an Android version kind of works (usually much worse than a native app would do, but still), companies don't see it worth their time to make (and then have to maintain) a native one. But if Android version couldn't be used then they would have made a native one, like they had to do for Windows Phone.


    Worn out slogan. I am a developer, I know lots of developers. I know what I and lots of my colleagues were or were not interested in. I knew dozens of developers who moved to BB10 from Symbian and MeeGo, and I know why they eventually gave up on BB10.

    Developing for a new platform like BB10 (as long as it is not harmed by Android compatibility and therefore having to compete with millions of Android apps) can actually be MUCH MORE PROFITABLE than trying luck on any of the huge platforms, where every app you could make already has its equivalent and first you need to work your fingers to the bones to even just be noticed in that Google or iOS app store filled up with apps (of which 80% no one has ever found and downloaded even just once). Whereas, on the contrary, on a new platform people are hungry for new apps and as it is just the beginning it is much easier to make people know about you and your apps. If only you are not being permanently scared away by unbearable competition with Android apps, and native apps not being in any way favorized and promoted, that is.

    Belive me, on a new platform with 1 million users hungry for apps it is often much EASIER to have yourself discovered and therefore sell much more copies than on a platform with 1 billion users but so crowded with developers and apps that no one will even notice your and your apps' existence unless you first spend $100,000 on promoting yourself.

    I thought it's obvious, but apparently not.
    This is where our opinions differ. I believe the battle was lost in 2010 - 3 years before BB10 was launched.

    Developers had no compelling reason to support more than two ecosystems. They could reach over 95% of the world with just 2 apps (now 99.9%).
    I've been reading this back-and-forth for a couple pages and I believe you both are circling around yet missing a major point. Moving to a new ecosystem is an expenditure, and not many people were sold on the idea of buying new apps on a platform they've never heard of prior. For your average joe who's ensconced in a single ecosystem, it would take a truly compelling reason to move to a new one - hate for their current one, an absolute joy in using a different one, and so on.
    01-06-17 04:24 AM
  20. cgk's Avatar
    I mostly agree.

    I find it interesting that we still find the same excuses for BB10's failure (JC, no advertising, big bad Google/Apple, etc), and the biggest reason -- that folks just didn't find it compelling/competitive when compared to other offerings -- is ignored.

    BB10 did get advertised. We can argue about the efficacy of the campaigns, but it did get face time. I also agree, right about then, I believe BBRY began to realize that the leak was becoming catastrophic.

    That BB10 is "better" is a fundamental idea of the faith thus it's beyond the pale to the true believers that anyone would reject it on these grounds - a position that ignores what is 'better' for you is not 'better' for me. At its core the things that are constantly mentioned here as wins for BB10 were things the public have little interest in (for example - security features).
    StephanieMaks likes this.
    01-06-17 04:52 AM
  21. Fool Guy's Avatar
    Stephen Elop's twin, just more smart and cunning.
    Exactly what i wanted to say !
    Chen is Stephen Elop v.2
    In India the misconception about BB is huge. As a matter of fact transition to new BB10 OS was not so smooth, BB failed to convince it's fan that this new OS is not the old OS and this OS is far better than previous one.
    Recently my friend the iPhone user claimed that BlackBerry is dead long back. He still believes that the new BB phone still needs the then famous BB Internet plan.
    Let us take blame of this perception and communication gap.
    BB is not on fault.
    But people like us have huge problem: BB10 is like Dead, Android is everywhere and no match with BB10 quality so is iOS.
    Where to go ?
    Last edited by Fool Guy; 01-06-17 at 05:45 AM.
    01-06-17 04:59 AM
  22. ohaiguise's Avatar
    10.3.4 is coming this year. 2017 will be the year of BlackBerry 10. The Android runtime will also be upgraded, allowing us to run useful apps for many years to come.

    The Bold line will also be reissued as many people still want to buy 9900s etc.
    01-06-17 06:30 AM
  23. StephanieMaks's Avatar
    10.3.4 is coming this year. 2017 will be the year of BlackBerry 10. The Android runtime will also be upgraded, allowing us to run useful apps for many years to come.

    The Bold line will also be reissued as many people still want to buy 9900s etc.
    You forgot the sarcasm tags.
    01-06-17 07:12 AM
  24. Tim-ANC's Avatar
    I blame Alicia Keys
    stlabrat likes this.
    01-06-17 07:21 AM
  25. hobgoblin1961's Avatar
    really ?
    my Blackberry devices are running fine, would have noticed if any of them would be dead...

    Posted via -Passport -Classic / OS-10.3.++ is all you need
    01-06-17 07:56 AM
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