12-05-17 11:31 AM
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  1. Avenzuno's Avatar
    Every developer knows how the development of BB10 OS instantly slowed down right after Mr. Chen came to BBRY. There were huge development plans and far-reaching roadmaps even just a month before that, but since he came it was just to finish the (being already in the works at that time) 10.3 and then only maintain it with small updates. Also, since Mr. Chen arrived there were actually no truly new BB10 phones designed from scratch, not a single one. The Passport was already in the works before he came, so he just allowed to finish and release it. The Passport SE was just a rehoused Passport. The Leap was mostly a rehoused Z10 with bigger screen and battery. All models except the Passport got stuck forever with the dual-core 1.5 GHz Snapdragon from AD 2012.

    Let's face it: he must have come to BBRY with a mission to convert it to Android since day one, if right from the start he did what he did to BB10 OS development and suppressed any hardware upgrades.

    And let's not forget that he came already in November 2013, while the first BB10 phone, the Z10, came out only in the beginning of 2013. So the platform did not have even just ONE YEAR to spread its wings before it got suppressed.

    Sad but true.
    As in anything, don't trust anyone by what he says but by what he does. Perhaps the BlackBerry board had a mission for Chen and he's succeeded in implementing it.

    Posted via CB10 on my VZW  Z30 STA100-3 | 10.3.2.2813
    01-05-17 01:10 AM
  2. Bla1ze's Avatar
    Let's face it: he must have come to BBRY with a mission to convert it to Android since day one, if right from the start he did what he did to BB10 OS development and suppressed any hardware upgrades.
    Not day one.. but shortly after. When Ron Louks got hired, the plan was in motion.

    Louks was hired on Jan. 6 2014 - http://crackberry.com/blackberry-app...vices-business

    And by Nov. 4 2015 they were discussing Priv - http://www.androidcentral.com/exclus...-android-phone

    Whether or not there's any truth to the mentions or it's just fluff commenting, there are several articles noting 'Louks convinced Chen' to go with Android.
    01-05-17 01:34 AM
  3. early2bed's Avatar
    Android was Chen's strategy from the beginning.

    Most people go to Las Vegas to gamble, party or see a show.

    On a warm winter's day in January 2014, Ron Louks journeyed there to gamble. But he wasn't trying his luck at the tables. He was there, on one of his first days on the job as head of BlackBerry's smartphone business, to bet on the company's future.

    After landing in the desert city at the start of the annual Consumer Electronics Show, Louks checked in with BlackBerry CEO John Chen and then set off for his first and most important appointment. Tellingly, it wasn't with a wireless carrier or one of BlackBerry's manufacturing partners. It was with Google.

    "Android, in our mind, was a longtime coming," Louks said in an interview last week.

    Chen, a software industry veteran hired to help save the Canadian company in late 2013, had already been talking to Google about how BlackBerry could better work with Android, the world's most popular operating system.

    The next step was up to Louks, who previously worked at HTC and Sony Ericsson.
    https://www.cnet.com/news/inside-bla...-with-android/
    01-05-17 02:16 AM
  4. Notna Nosyel's Avatar
    Not only BB10 is dead, but also the BlackBerry hardware. After the Mercury, everything is all about TCL and Android. You can't feel any BlackBerry on it.

    Sly, sly, sly...like a Demon's eye.
    01-05-17 02:29 AM
  5. Slash82's Avatar
    Not day one.. but shortly after. When Ron Louks got hired, the plan was in motion.

    Louks was hired on Jan. 6 2014 - http://crackberry.com/blackberry-app...vices-business

    And by Nov. 4 2015 they were discussing Priv - http://www.androidcentral.com/exclus...-android-phone

    Whether or not there's any truth to the mentions or it's just fluff commenting, there are several articles noting 'Louks convinced Chen' to go with Android.
    That brings tears up to my eyes.
    Especially when I look back to first images of the Priv - running BlackBerry10!

    I was:

    BlackBerry10 is(!) dead!-unnamed.jpg

    Then it came out, running Android...

    Posted via CB10
    01-05-17 02:31 AM
  6. Bla1ze's Avatar
    That brings tears up to my eyes.
    Especially when I look back to first images of the Priv - running BlackBerry10!
    It was never running BB10, it was just smoke and mirrors but you know that already.
    01-05-17 02:34 AM
  7. Slash82's Avatar
    It was never running BB10, it was just smoke and mirrors but you know that already.
    I'm pretty sure it was running OS10 when it was shown first to public:


    BlackBerry10 is(!) dead!-2a366e7200000578-0-image-23_1435959850397.jpg

    At least that is first pic I saw of it "in person".

    Posted via CB10
    01-05-17 02:42 AM
  8. Fret Madden's Avatar
    I'm pretty sure it was running OS10 when it was shown first to public:


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2A366E7200000578-0-image-a-23_1435959850397.jpg 
Views:	1800 
Size:	27.1 KB 
ID:	415364

    At least that is first pic I saw of it "in person".

    Posted via CB10
    That's the smoke and mirrors we speak of; it was completely fake.
    01-05-17 03:11 AM
  9. thurask's Avatar
    I'm pretty sure it was running OS10 when it was shown first to public:


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2A366E7200000578-0-image-a-23_1435959850397.jpg 
Views:	1800 
Size:	27.1 KB 
ID:	415364

    At least that is first pic I saw of it "in person".

    Posted via CB10
    That's "running" BB10 the same way the paper insert of the phone that comes with a case is "running" that phone's OS. It's a flashlight with a home screen taped on.
    HighFlight88 and Fret Madden like this.
    01-05-17 03:28 AM
  10. Slash82's Avatar
    That's the smoke and mirrors we speak of; it was completely fake.
    Sure. Still this was my first impression of the Priv / Venice.

    At this time, Chen still claimed that it's not sure if an Android-Berry will see the light of day.
    All he said, was: "If we figure out to make Android secure, we bring an Android device!"

    That was all the public got to hear - other things still were speculation.

    Posted via CB10
    01-05-17 04:00 AM
  11. Slash82's Avatar
    That's "running" BB10 the same way the paper insert of the phone that comes with a case is "running" that phone's OS. It's a flashlight with a home screen taped on.
    Just commented to that at the previous comment.

    Posted via CB10
    01-05-17 04:00 AM
  12. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    As in anything, don't trust anyone by what he says but by what he does. Perhaps the BlackBerry board had a mission for Chen and he's succeeded in implementing it.
    Quite possibly. I did not intend to say that it was just him. Similarly, in case of Nokia it surely wasn't Elop alone. Someone invited him and let him do what he did.

    Not day one.. but shortly after. When Ron Louks got hired, the plan was in motion.
    Louks was hired on Jan. 6 2014 - BlackBerry appoints Ron Louks to take over leadership of devices business | CrackBerry.com
    And by Nov. 4 2015 they were discussing Priv - BlackBerry's President of Devices on the Priv, Android, security and keyboards | Android Central
    Whether or not there's any truth to the mentions or it's just fluff commenting, there are several articles noting 'Louks convinced Chen' to go with Android.
    OK, that's quite a possible scenario, too. To express myself more precisely, I can't say if it was Chen or Louks or someone else, it's just that it was clearly visible how development of BB10 suddenly slowed down already sometime in early 2014. For me (after all my Nokia experiences) it was clear already then that they were preparing to ditch it. And if so, then already then they must have had an alternative for it.

    I don't follow the reasoning that BB10 was too late and not ready as someone said. OK, it was too late for one important thing: if it came out a year earlier (when Symbian was giving up the ghost) most probably hundreds of millions of Symbian (and additionally a few million of MeeGo) users would have switched to BB10 rather than Android, simply because Symbian/MeeGo users didn't really like Android and only lack of any other choice made them switch to it (as they hated WP and iOS even more). BB10 was much more Symbian- and MeeGo-alike, so it would have been their primary choice.

    But even a year after that BB10 still had a chance. It definitely wasn't "not ready". It's just that too many mistakes were made. One of them being lack of a truly powerful full touch device (Z30 successor) in 2014. Full touch phones have always been the most popular smartphone form factor (can you find any iPhone model of a different design? 99% of Android phones are full touch, too) so not offering any true full touch flagship by..... even today (i.e. simply never) was a suicidal move.

    Personally, as a developer, I also think that either they should have made sure that Android runtime could be updated to new Android versions as they come and to Google services, or they should have dropped Android compatibility altogether already at start and fully focus on native apps. It was Android compatibility (having to compete with countless free or cheap Android apps) what scared away lots of developers from this platform (as if they had to compete with Android apps then it was making much more sense to do it on Android itself) and additionally the BBW store totally flooded with Android junk was making their apps nearly undiscoverable. Those were the main reasons of developers abandoning BB10, not BB10 itself. In such sense, it was mostly Android compatibility what killed development of native apps. Windows Phone didn't have Android compatibility and it got much more native apps, simply because it was much more profitable for developers to make them as they weren't forced to compete with countless Android apps (not to mention cracked versions available from everywhere) right from the start.
    stlabrat likes this.
    01-05-17 05:07 AM
  13. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    At this time, Chen still claimed that it's not sure if an Android-Berry will see the light of day.
    All he said, was: "If we figure out to make Android secure, we bring an Android device!"
    And it was a lie, because he did not make Android secure even by today Of which monthly security patches are the best proof.
    Slash82 likes this.
    01-05-17 05:11 AM
  14. BlackBerryPassport's Avatar
    Bb10 is dead, no matter if BlackBerry or Chen or the Bloggers who keeps saying BlackBerry is committed to bb10 are all lying. BlackBerry10 was dead the day they went Android, all the bloggers will keep on saying 'oh BlackBerry haven't ditched bb10 they are still committed to it, are all false statements,

    How are they committed to bb10, just because we can still make phone calls, send sms and receive emails, is that all?

    BlackBerry10 is dead. No matter what. Enjoy your Bb10 devices
    Mercury looks cool but sorry BlackBerry android nope atleast for me.

    Posted via CB10
    Slash82 and Kot Prada like this.
    01-05-17 05:37 AM
  15. Slash82's Avatar
    OK, that's quite a possible scenario, too. To express myself more precisely, I can't say if it was Chen or Louks or someone else, it's just that it was clearly visible how development of BB10 suddenly slowed down already sometime in early 2014.
    My personal opinion is:
    Chen's plan was to get rid of the hardware from the beginning.

    He saw all that software knowledge, patents and stuff - that was enough for him for turnaround.

    He doesn't have any clue about hardware.
    And he always said that he doesn't know what could be a "sexy device".

    But then he might realized that it's not that easy to dump the hardware department - so the turnaround here might be to make one "fail" after the other to blame the market.
    Developing and maintaining an 'own' OS and hardware produces lots of costs.
    And since BlackBerry can't sell user's data unlike Android (which is made for that) and even iOS - no big profit with an own OS.
    That would only work with high selling numbers...

    Posted via CB10
    01-05-17 05:40 AM
  16. Slash82's Avatar
    And it was a lie, because he did not make Android secure even by today Of which monthly security patches are the best proof.
    Android can never be as secure as OS10.
    The reason for that is: Google.
    You can only provide maximum security with an own OS.
    BlackBerry has no control over the OS itself and will never know if there are 'secret' backdoors in it.

    They may be able to make it pretty maleware and virus proof, but that's it.

    Posted via CB10
    01-05-17 05:43 AM
  17. Slash82's Avatar
    Bb10 is dead, no matter if BlackBerry or Chen or the Bloggers who keeps saying BlackBerry is committed to bb10 are all lying. BlackBerry10 was dead the day they went Android, all the bloggers will keep on saying 'oh BlackBerry haven't ditched bb10 they are still committed to it, are all false statements,

    How are they committed to bb10, just because we can still make phone calls, send sms and receive emails, is that all?

    BlackBerry10 is dead. No matter what. Enjoy your Bb10 devices
    Mercury looks cool but sorry BlackBerry android nope atleast for me.

    Posted via CB10
    Sad but true!
    If they were that commitment, why do even feel loyal fans that it's dead?
    With every update came something to give up.

    It took 1.5 years for an security update (10.3.3) with no additional features, no new Android runtime, no new SDKs etc.
    And nothing at the horizon.


    Posted via CB10
    01-05-17 05:49 AM
  18. cgk's Avatar

    And let's not forget that he came already in November 2013, while the first BB10 phone, the Z10, came out only in the beginning of 2013.
    The Z10 was a bomb - it was both the start and the end of the road - they had to take a near billion dollar write-down on that turkey.
    01-05-17 06:41 AM
  19. Invictus0's Avatar
    Every developer knows how the development of BB10 OS instantly slowed down right after Mr. Chen came to BBRY. There were huge development plans and far-reaching roadmaps even just a month before that, but since he came it was just to finish the (already in the works at that time) 10.3 / 10.3.1 release and then only maintain it with small updates. Also, since Mr. Chen arrived there were actually no truly new BB10 phones designed from scratch, not a single one. The Passport was already in the works before he came, so he just allowed to finish and release it. The Passport SE was just a rehoused Passport. The Leap was mostly a rehoused Z10 with bigger screen and battery. And so on. All models except for the Passport got stuck forever with the dual-core 1.5 GHz Snapdragon from AD 2012.

    Let's face it: he must have come to BBRY with a mission to convert it to Android since day one, if right from the start he did what he did to BB10 OS development and suppressed any hardware upgrades.

    Remind yourselves how in just 2013 alone the OS progressed from 10.0 to 10.1 to 10.2 to 10.2.1, and 10.3 was already in the works, and how then it just died (it took ~3 years to progress from 10.3.1 to 10.3.3)

    And let's not forget that he came already in November 2013, while the first BB10 phone, the Z10, came out only in the beginning of 2013. So the platform did not have even just ONE YEAR to spread its wings before it got suppressed.

    Sad but true.

    Stephen Elop's twin, just more smart and cunning.
    BB10 devices weren't selling, as a result of this BlackBerry had already left the consumer market and started a new round of layoffs (nearly 40% of their workforce) before Chen had joined the company. These factors hurt the OS more than anything else.

    http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/20/47...and-enterprise

    BlackBerry announcing that they were leaving the consumer market had big ramifications in Indonesia, I'm sure it caused problems in other consumer markets as well.

    But there were also other blunders. He said former BlackBerry CEO Thorsten Heins’s comment that they would exit the consumer market to focus on enterprise customers landed in Indonesia – where the majority of customers were consumers – like “a bombshell” and “destroyed them” here, creating anxiety among both wireless carrier clients and Mr. Cobham’s own employees.
    Lack of global knowledge cost BlackBerry Indonesia - The Globe and Mail

    Android was Chen's strategy from the beginning.


    https://www.cnet.com/news/inside-bla...-with-android/
    For BES, using it for phones was Louks idea. From the article,

    While Chen wanted a stronger relationship with Google -- one of the services BlackBerry offers is managing email on mobile devices, including those powered by Android -- Louks pushed things forward by asking to build an Android smartphone in early 2014.

    Chen wasn't sold on the idea. And he wasn't alone. BlackBerry veterans are accustomed to using the company's own software to ensure the most secure devices, and Android lacked a reputation for security.

    "There's normal tension when you change a strategic decision," Louks said. "People are going to question it."

    It wasn't until Louks convinced Chen he could build an Android smartphone with security embedded in the hardware that he got the green light.
    BigBadWulf likes this.
    01-05-17 11:44 AM
  20. tdyhedge's Avatar
    The Z10 was a bomb - it was both the start and the end of the road - they had to take a near billion dollar write-down on that turkey.
    Don't forget $250M of that billion dollars was a for a Superbowl commercial that to this day, no one understands.
    01-05-17 12:22 PM
  21. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Don't forget $250M of that billion dollars was a for a Superbowl commercial that to this day, no one understands.
    Wasn't a wise use of their limited marketing funds... especially when they didn't yet have the product in the US market.

    But I think the cost for development of the Ad and Airtime was more around $5Million. Superbowl ads are expensive... but not $250 million.
    BigBadWulf and Tim-ANC like this.
    01-05-17 12:32 PM
  22. tdyhedge's Avatar
    But I think the cost for development of the Ad and Airtime was more around $5Million. Superbowl ads are expensive... but not $250 million.
    Oh yes, you're right. Excuse my feeble attempt at exaggeration here, it was $250K, as in thousand. Someone was wrong on the Internet again ... I understand.

    But I do love the exaggeration of others that BB10 is alive, pointing to 10.3.3 as just being released and an update to BBM as being proof. That and those that know just how to save a multi-million dollar company and do software and hardware development, having done neither in real life. Granted there's a few that have but c'mon...BB10 is dead just as the title says. Lol
    01-05-17 02:49 PM
  23. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Oh yes, you're right. Excuse my feeble attempt at exaggeration here, it was $250K, as in thousand. Someone was wrong on the Internet again ... I understand.

    But I do love the exaggeration of others that BB10 is alive, pointing to 10.3.3 as just being released and an update to BBM as being proof. That and those that know just how to save a multi-million dollar company and do software and hardware development, having done neither in real life. Granted there's a few that have but c'mon...BB10 is dead just as the title says. Lol
    Pretty sure it was around $5 million... not that it matters at this point.

    As for BB10.... "dead" has a ring of finality to it. While I don't expect any new devices, and the odds of another minor security patch are probably a long shot, and BlackBerry themselves isn't really supporting the platform in any way. It's more like it's in a coma with little or no chance of a recovery. But for years, there will be BB10 lovers using their devices.
    Slash82 and BigBadWulf like this.
    01-05-17 02:59 PM
  24. conite's Avatar
    Quite possibly. I did not intend to say that it was just him. Similarly, in case of Nokia it surely wasn't Elop alone. Someone invited him and let him do what he did.


    OK, that's quite a possible scenario, too. To express myself more precisely, I can't say if it was Chen or Louks or someone else, it's just that it was clearly visible how development of BB10 suddenly slowed down already sometime in early 2014. For me (after all my Nokia experiences) it was clear already then that they were preparing to ditch it. And if so, then already then they must have had an alternative for it.

    I don't follow the reasoning that BB10 was too late and not ready as someone said. OK, it was too late for one important thing: if it came out a year earlier (when Symbian was giving up the ghost) most probably hundreds of millions of Symbian (and additionally a few million of MeeGo) users would have switched to BB10 rather than Android, simply because Symbian/MeeGo users didn't really like Android and only lack of any other choice made them switch to it (as they hated WP and iOS even more). BB10 was much more Symbian- and MeeGo-alike, so it would have been their primary choice.

    But even a year after that BB10 still had a chance. It definitely wasn't "not ready". It's just that too many mistakes were made. One of them being lack of a truly powerful full touch device (Z30 successor) in 2014. Full touch phones have always been the most popular smartphone form factor (can you find any iPhone model of a different design? 99% of Android phones are full touch, too) so not offering any true full touch flagship by..... even today (i.e. simply never) was a suicidal move.

    Personally, as a developer, I also think that either they should have made sure that Android runtime could be updated to new Android versions as they come and to Google services, or they should have dropped Android compatibility altogether already at start and fully focus on native apps. It was Android compatibility (having to compete with countless free or cheap Android apps) what scared away lots of developers from this platform (as if they had to compete with Android apps then it was making much more sense to do it on Android itself) and additionally the BBW store totally flooded with Android junk was making their apps nearly undiscoverable. Those were the main reasons of developers abandoning BB10, not BB10 itself. In such sense, it was mostly Android compatibility what killed development of native apps. Windows Phone didn't have Android compatibility and it got much more native apps, simply because it was much more profitable for developers to make them as they weren't forced to compete with countless Android apps (not to mention cracked versions available from everywhere) right from the start.
    You have the timing mixed up.

    BB10 was proven to be an absolutely unmitigated disaster by the summer of 2013. No major apps came, and BlackBerry had to write down hundreds of millions of dollars on devices. The company went up for sale, and Thorsten got turfed.

    The BlackBerry board hired Chen to pivot away from hardware, and to start building a software business. He continued to dabble with phones while the software side ramped up and to stay relevant in the business world.

    It was likely Louks that convinced Chen to give it one last kick at the can with BlackBerry Android. It's probably a good thing he did, because now BlackBerry has something to licence and a suite to sell.

    In the meantime, the software portfolio has become quite formidable, and it appears BlackBerry may just survive.
    01-05-17 03:09 PM
  25. BurningPlatform's Avatar
    BB10 devices weren't selling, as a result of this BlackBerry had already left the consumer market and started a new round of layoffs (nearly 40% of their workforce) before Chen had joined the company. These factors hurt the OS more than anything else.
    BB10 devices weren't selling because hardly anyone knew they existed. An overwhelming majority of people I ever showed my Z10 to were SHOCKED that such a device and OS existed as it was the first time ever they've seen or heard anything about it. Not just in 2013, but also in 2014 or 2015. General awareness about BB10 was so poor that even in 2016 when I was buying a screen protector for my wive's Z10, people in the company selling them were amazed that it was running BlackBerry's own OS as they always thought it was an Android phone and they never had it in their hands. And when now in late 2016 or 2017 I show my Passport to people, it is the first time they see it as they have not seen it ever before in any commercial, newspaper, web ad, etc. Shortly speaking, hardly anyone knew anything about such a thing as "BB10". So how could people be buying something they didn't even know it existed at all, let alone ever having been told what advantages it can offer them.

    For an average Android or iOS user, "BB10" has always meant JUST AS LITTLE as the tiny Jolla / Sailfish OS. No difference whatsoever, same sh*tty promotion and no attempts to ever let them know anything more than that and thus ever get interested to even just check it out.

    With such DISASTROUS promotion during the ENTIRE BB10 lifetime right from the beginning (and ESPECIALLY at the beginning), it is actually a miracle that BlackBerry sold even what it sold.

    You have the timing mixed up. BB10 was proven to be an absolutely unmitigated disaster by the summer of 2013. No major apps came, and BlackBerry had to write down hundreds of millions of dollars on devices. The company went up for sale, and Thorsten got turfed.
    I did not negate that it was a financial disaster. I only insist that it wasn't because of anything related to the OS itself, but because of absolutely no promotion. BlackBerry did NOTHING to make everyone know that such a thing existed and to make them willing at least to try it and see what it is. My memory serves me well and I do remember how literally everyone I showed my BB10 phone to was seeing it for the first time in his life. It was so in 2013, 2014, and not much changed even by today.

    As for lack of apps, just as I wrote, if you choose to have Android compatibility on your new platform then you must realize that you are putting all native developers in an AWFUL position, because even before they can release their very first native app they are already facing competition with MILLIONS of Android apps, most of them already established and famous, extremely cheap (due to the Android market being so huge and thus allowing such low prices) and so on. Add to it an app store that never distinguished or promoted native apps over Android ones in ANY way, instantly got flooded with tens of thousands of Android rubbish making lots of native apps almost undiscoverable (and thus unsellable), and on top of that - as if it wasn't enough - BlackBerry's DISASTROUS policy to mostly only feature a few chosen Elite developers on the Carousel, and you get the full picture. It was a competition that most of developers on such a new and small platform just COULDN'T BEAR, so they quit. Again, absolutely nothing to do with the product itself, but solely because of horrible strategy.

    Right after I ported my apps from the already discontinued and DYING Symbian and MeeGo to BB10, I was amazed that what on the dead Symbian and tiny MeeGo was still selling in hundreds of copies a month, on BB10 was bringing.... $10 revenue a month. Very quickly I realized that it was so because simply no one could find my apps burried under TONS of Android junk. BlackBerry NEVER promoted any of them until late 2015 or so when I managed to establish some PERSONAL contacts with them so they never appeared on the Carousel, and finding them by an average user was mission impossible.

    Every new platform with Android compatibility is simply DOOMED to fail when it comes to development of native apps, as it makes it totally unprofitable, unless native apps are extraordinarily supported and strongly promoted (e.g. clearly distinguished / favorized in the app store). And unless the OS maker right at launch invests enough money into simply paying all important social media vendors and online services to provide native clients and always keep them up to date. It's the LEAST an OS vendor just HAS to do if it intends to offer Android compatibility, otherwise it is just GUARANTEED that development of native apps will just collapse under unbearable Android apps competition.

    While Android compatibility initially looks as such new platforms' SAVIOR (as in general opinion it allows to have lots of apps from the start) and a simple recipe for success, in a longer term it prevents such platforms from ever having a decent number of native apps and because of that it eventually kills them.
    Last edited by BurningPlatform; 01-05-17 at 05:26 PM.
    01-05-17 04:51 PM
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