12-06-13 07:29 AM
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  1. texazzpete's Avatar
    This survey or whatever you want to call it, is useless because it didn't reflect the whole world market. Is India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Middle Eastern and African countries "chop liver"? Is population of over 1 billion something to take for granted? Or did the researchers think people in these, not mentioned, countries get their phones for free?
    The world is bigger than they think and know.
    1. In those countries, most people spring for the OS7 devices for cheap BIS

    2. BBM was a major driver for BlackBerry adoption in many of those countries. With that exclusivity gone, cheap Android phones are mopping the floor with BB10 devices in sales.
    12-04-13 08:31 AM
  2. JasW's Avatar
    Huawei, Lenovo and HTC sell MILLIONS more phones than Blackberry does. Not sure if you were serious or just ignorant of other platforms.

    Attachment 226874

    Even Sony outsell BlackBerry, ditto for LG.

    By next year when the first Tizen smartphones start being pumped into the marketplace by Samsung, BlackBerry will find themselves battling for the 4th position
    Cue the fanboy attacks on Gartner.
    m1a1mg, kevinnugent and JeepBB like this.
    12-04-13 08:34 AM
  3. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    Yes but those devices are being sold with more expensive components at the same price as the BlackBerry which is using less expensive components. You can't deny that BlackBerry's pricing strategy combined with its tarnished reputation are two of the main reasons BB10 sales are poor. I was never going to buy another Z10 (I have tow in the family and two iPhone 5) but the $199 price for it was too good to pass up and I'm upgrading my college son from a 9360 to it for Christmas even though an Android or iPhone would be better probably since his college has apps for those platforms. Hopefully 10.2.1 will make that issue null. The point is I was done throwing BlackBerry money after all the botched events of this year and price got me to give them more. I wouldn't buy a Z30 for $600, but $450 unlocked is a fair price IMHO based on the specs compared to what else is out there, the app situation, and the fact that BlackBerry as a company has been pretty lousy to the customers over the past few years.

    Posted via CB10
    Well, then I presume we may see some progress in sales

    More seriously I mean that same issue goes for every first-gen range of products.
    They have to gain credibility and expose their differentiators while R&D ROI temptation raises the price.
    Don't mean to sugarcoat anything: obviously, Z10 Q10/5 didn't succeed and Z30 is IMHO more a "let's try this one and collect returns" device.
    As I stated pretty quick and many times after I had my Z30 (say a week of real usage), I believe it is the FIRST BB10 device with these mentioned qualities and 10.2.1 leaks never ceased to improve this feeling.
    The implicit quality of BB devices (life cycle, build quality) cannot match with entry level, and they never will. Components price is not alone involved here, it's also about "how", "where" and what manpower is implied in the whole process.
    If you compare a Tata car with a Chevy Spark, on the paper, you have two entry-level cars ... obviously not the same vehicle/price.

    Now, all the Z/Q range is going to be priced (soon) n-1 products and may seduce more at this discounted price.
    No gain with hardware margins ... then force bundle discounts for Enterprises makes sense => CALs.

    About apps, I believe, if anywhere, that's in enterprise where the "lack-of" is the less sensible. Either because solution-specific clients exists or that the ease of porting/developing offers a great opportunities for company-specific ones.

    It's fair to look in the mirror, but when i look into it, the main problem I see is "bad timing" or more specifically "wrong tempo".
    Last but not least, as much as I've been compliant with F. Boulben's "in the hood" work, I believe the brand has been deprecated on the image front and there's something to be done urgently ... and what I can observe these last days let me hope about this matter.
    Last edited by Superfly_FR; 12-04-13 at 08:57 AM. Reason: much vs far
    kbz1960, spike12 and Shlooky like this.
    12-04-13 08:38 AM
  4. cgk's Avatar
    I understand most, don't want to derail further.
    I use it for more than a month. In the meantime, how many hangs, reboots, battery flat or ROM flash for most of the devices you list ?
    To be clear : I score 0 with my Z (if you except leaks install, of course).
    My point is that is is all based on user perception; I don't deny the devices you list are good devices.
    But after almost 20 years in I.T, I know brutal specs <> efficiency. They often hide or try to balance a poor global experience.
    You've made three common errors:

    1) You are describing actual usage - largely if not completely irrelevant in the decision making process when consumers buy products.

    2) You are working on the basis that the technical merits of the OS are significant factors, they are hygiene factors and are since most OSes are of a muchness to modern consumers, factors such as pricing, ecosystem, branding are more important

    3) The sales data and the accelerating trends of android show that the market doesn't share your concerns - and that is the only game in town.
    12-04-13 08:42 AM
  5. kbz1960's Avatar
    Well, then I presume we may see some progress in sales

    More seriously I mean that same issue goes for every first-gen range of products.
    They have to gain credibility and expose their differentiators while R&D ROI temptation raises the price.
    Don't mean to sugarcoat anything: obviously, Z10 Q10/5 didn't succeed and Z30 is IMHO more a "let's try this one and collect returns" device.
    As I stated pretty quick and many times after I had my Z30 (say a week of real usage), I believe it is the FIRST BB10 device with these mentioned qualities and 10.2.1 leaks never ceased to improve this feeling.
    The implicit quality of BB devices (life cycle, build quality) cannot match with entry level, and they never will. Components price is not alone involved here, it's also about "how", "where" and what manpower is implied in the whole process.
    If you compare a Tata car with a Chevy Spark, on the paper, you have two entry-level cars ... obviously not the same vehicle/price.

    Now, all the Z/Q range is going to be priced (soon) n-1 products and may seduce more at this discounted price.
    No gain with hardware margins ... then force bundle discounts for Enterprises makes sense => CALs.

    About apps, I believe, if anywhere, that's in enterprise where the "lack-of" is the less sensible. Either because solution-specific clients exists or that the ease of porting/developing offers a great opportunities for company-specific ones.

    It's fair to look in the mirror, but when i look into it, the main problem I see is "bad timing" or more specifically "wrong tempo".
    Last but not least, as far as I've been compliant with F. Boulben's "in the hood" work, I believe the brand has been deprecated on the image front and there's something to be done urgently ... and what I can observe these last days let me hope about this matter.
    I wish everyone could make posts like you without all the fluff, drivel and sugar coating everything. There are good qualities about BB10 for sure.
    12-04-13 08:45 AM
  6. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    You've made three common errors:

    1) You are describing actual usage - largely if not completely irrelevant in the decision making process when consumers buy products.

    2) You are working on the basis that the technical merits of the OS are significant factors, they are hygiene factors and are since most OSes are of a muchness to modern consumers, factors such as pricing, ecosystem, branding are more important

    3) The sales data and the accelerating trends of android show that the market doesn't share your concerns - and that is the only game in town.
    Yes and no. Bc it's opinion leaders consensus that makes a brand/device/experience successful. It's even before the "decision making process". Because this decision will be made between models that have been described as "best buy" by these leaders. Cut the (lack of) app problem when BB10 launched and I believe the situation - given the vast majority of OS/Device reviews were good+ but deprecated by an immense BUT "apps ..." in the conclusion - would be really different.

    Also, for the form, I was not explaining why Z30 would sell, just why I pretend it's not a mid-range high priced device. edit/added : Last but not least : and that it is a very positive sign for future devices.
    Last edited by Superfly_FR; 12-04-13 at 09:47 AM.
    grover5 and kbz1960 like this.
    12-04-13 08:52 AM
  7. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    I wish everyone could make posts like you without all the fluff, drivel and sugar coating everything. There are good qualities about BB10 for sure.
    Coming from you, this is a great compliment, thanks.
    Yet, still learning to fly
    m1a1mg and kbz1960 like this.
    12-04-13 08:55 AM
  8. mmarco's Avatar
    I can talk a little about Spain and Portugal (very simillar)

    Most of people buy phones without contract, so this devices are expensive.

    Samsung (they have a lot of differents devices) and Apple sell very well.

    You dont see people buying Blackberry, you pay 499€ for a z10 for example, and the minimum wage it's between 450€ and 750€.
    Remember this countrys are with financial problems.

    If blackberry dops the prices and good markting people'll buy more
    12-04-13 09:30 AM
  9. bakron1's Avatar
    Many around here will never quite be able to grasp this distinction. For whatever reason they cannot reconcile BlackBerry's lack of sucess as a company with their own love for the devices. They assume that since they love the product then the company must be doing well or is on the rise when every objective indicator points to the opposite conclusion.
    Not only the objective indicator points but the sales numbers are the leading indicators. I just hope the new guy can rebuild the brand before it fades away.


    Sent using the CB app from my iPhone 5
    kbz1960, JeepBB and techvisor like this.
    12-04-13 09:59 AM
  10. harlemsfinest27's Avatar
    The BB faithful can't accept the truth and the cold hard facts that BB is failing and that BB10 has been a MASSIVE flop.
    THANK YOU!!! The denial from folks on this site is appalling
    techvisor, Shlooky and kevinnugent like this.
    12-04-13 11:29 AM
  11. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    The BB faithful can't accept the truth and the cold hard facts that BB is failing and that BB10 has been a MASSIVE flop.
    THANK YOU!!! The denial from folks on this site is appalling
    Not really.
    Maybe the main difference is that many here can measure achievements, accept delays and failure thought still see a brighter future ?
    Remember we've been told about the death of BlackBerry "next quarter" for at least 3 years on a daily basis, so that our "denial" may not be that wrong, after all

    @Hilman : "BB10 has been a MASSIVE flop" just sounds better for us as in "BB10 launch has been a relative flop so far".
    grover5, Vorkosigan and kbz1960 like this.
    12-04-13 11:40 AM
  12. mnc76's Avatar
    Not really.
    Maybe the main difference is that many here can measure achievements, accept delays and failure thought still see a brighter future ?
    Remember we've been told about the death of BlackBerry "next quarter" for at least 3 years on a daily basis, so that our "denial" may not be that wrong, after all

    @Hilman : "BB10 has been a MASSIVE flop" just sounds better for us as in "BB10 launch has been a relative flop so far".
    I agree.

    And to people like harlemsfinest27, Hilman76 :
    I hate when people claim that all the people on CB are in some sort of denial. There are certainly a small number of (often very vocal) members who seem to be in denial, but the overwhelming majority of members DO NOT see BlackBerry making a turn-around in a few quarters, or expect the next earnings call to be anything close to positive.

    The difference is that we are BlackBerry fans, and as such, we tend to highlight the positive aspects of the company. If there is bad news, we tend to look for any positives that may lie in it (this IS a BlackBerry FAN site). However, there are some people that don't seem to want us to celebrate ANYTHING BlackBerry-related, and feel that any positivity must be countered with posts about how "the company is DOOOOOMED!!!! AHHHHH!!!"

    So don't take optimism, and seeing value in places where the company deserves credit, as denial of anything. We all know it will be a rocky journey in the very best case, and that the BlackBerry that (we hope) survives may look different than the BlackBerry of today. However, we also think BlackBerry does a lot of stuff well (e.g.: 10.2.1 is looking awesome IMO), and think there is a possibility that they will come out of this alive.

    On the other hand, feel free to call out folks who make misinformed or ridiculous claims ....but there is no need to run around with "The End is Nigh!!" signs because of a minority of people who are truly in denial.
    12-04-13 12:12 PM
  13. scribacco's Avatar
    Now, all the Z/Q range is going to be priced (soon) n-1 products and may seduce more at this discounted price.
    No gain with hardware margins ... then force bundle discounts for Enterprises makes sense => CALs.
    you are saying that most consumers and enterprises will start buying almost 1 year old devices that were already obsolete hardware wise when introduced, just because they are on sale ...are you for real? the Nexus 5 has great specs and cost unlocked less than the Z/Q which have obsolete specs. You need to get real, obviously you live in fantasy land.
    12-04-13 12:20 PM
  14. Hilman76's Avatar
    mnc76, I agree that there is nothing wrong with people wanting and hoping for BB to succeed but a few posters on here post a lot and most of their posts are pure BS (and are unbelievably delusional on what BB is and what it will be). The cold hard facts have been presented and these two posters still come out with their nonsensical hysterics and ignorant comments like BB10 will/has 10 million handsets sold or no Android vendor except for Samsung outsells BB when it has clearly been shown that they are wrong, time and time again.

    Time for these two dreamers to walk away from their keyboards as they are embarrassing themselves and other BB fans on this site with their verbal diarrhea.
    chr1sny, JeepBB and kbz1960 like this.
    12-04-13 12:31 PM
  15. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    you are saying that most consumers and enterprises will start buying almost 1 year old devices that were already obsolete hardware wise when introduced, just because they are on sale ...are you for real? the Nexus 5 has great specs and cost unlocked less than the Z/Q which have obsolete specs. You need to get real, obviously you live in fantasy land.
    Like hotcakes ? No : but until inventory is flushed.
    (edit : this for the "most" in your response, was "more" in my post)
    ...
    Z10 under $200 for consumers ? Yes.
    Z10, Q10/5 for enterprises with (volume) upgrade CALs bundles ? Yes.
    Last edited by Superfly_FR; 12-04-13 at 01:03 PM.
    12-04-13 12:48 PM
  16. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    mnc76, I agree that there is nothing wrong with people wanting and hoping for BB to succeed but a few posters on here post a lot and most of their posts are pure BS (and are unbelievably delusional on what BB is and what it will be). The cold hard facts have been presented and these two posters still come out with their nonsensical hysterics and ignorant comments like BB10 will/has 10 million handsets sold or no Android vendor except for Samsung outsells BB when it has clearly been shown that they are wrong, time and time again.

    Time for these two dreamers to walk away from their keyboards as they are embarrassing themselves and other BB fans on this site with their verbal diarrhea.
    You cannot heal fire with fire ...
    anon(5624621) likes this.
    12-04-13 12:50 PM
  17. SirJes's Avatar
    mnc76, I agree that there is nothing wrong with people wanting and hoping for BB to succeed but a few posters on here post a lot and most of their posts are pure BS (and are unbelievably delusional on what BB is and what it will be). The cold hard facts have been presented and these two posters still come out with their nonsensical hysterics and ignorant comments like BB10 will/has 10 million handsets sold or no Android vendor except for Samsung outsells BB when it has clearly been shown that they are wrong, time and time again.

    Time for these two dreamers to walk away from their keyboards as they are embarrassing themselves and other BB fans on this site with their verbal diarrhea.
    so your saying that what you think BlackBerry is and what it will be is the only truth?

    CLICK HERE To Join My Music & Poetry Channel. Please&Thanks.
    12-04-13 12:56 PM
  18. mnc76's Avatar
    mnc76, I agree that there is nothing wrong with people wanting and hoping for BB to succeed but a few posters on here post a lot and most of their posts are pure BS (and are unbelievably delusional on what BB is and what it will be). The cold hard facts have been presented and these two posters still come out with their nonsensical hysterics and ignorant comments like BB10 will/has 10 million handsets sold or no Android vendor except for Samsung outsells BB when it has clearly been shown that they are wrong, time and time again.

    Time for these two dreamers to walk away from their keyboards as they are embarrassing themselves and other BB fans on this site with their verbal diarrhea.
    Well, the guy who was talking about BB versus non-Samsung Android vendors asked for proof that they sold better than BB. When this was proof provided, he did not post again. In other words, he was called on it and lost. So I think we can leave it at that (unless he returns and continues to argue the point). I think this was an error more than delusion.

    However, his other point was that Samsung dominates the other Android vendors -- and this is true -- especially when one considers profit generated from North American sales (not shown in any tables here). If I recall correctly, Samsung is the only Android vendor that actually makes money on the Android handsets they sell in North America, with all the remaining vendors either breaking even or posting a loss after things like marketing costs are deducted (though I think Sony may actually make a small profit?).

    As for the other guy? I'll just say that I don't think there are any factual indications that BlackBerry will get close to selling 10 million handsets by Dec 20 (and many indications they won't), unfortunately.
    12-04-13 01:09 PM
  19. lnichols's Avatar
    Well, then I presume we may see some progress in sales

    More seriously I mean that same issue goes for every first-gen range of products.
    They have to gain credibility and expose their differentiators while R&D ROI temptation raises the price.
    Don't mean to sugarcoat anything: obviously, Z10 Q10/5 didn't succeed and Z30 is IMHO more a "let's try this one and collect returns" device.
    As I stated pretty quick and many times after I had my Z30 (say a week of real usage), I believe it is the FIRST BB10 device with these mentioned qualities and 10.2.1 leaks never ceased to improve this feeling.
    The implicit quality of BB devices (life cycle, build quality) cannot match with entry level, and they never will. Components price is not alone involved here, it's also about "how", "where" and what manpower is implied in the whole process.
    If you compare a Tata car with a Chevy Spark, on the paper, you have two entry-level cars ... obviously not the same vehicle/price.

    Now, all the Z/Q range is going to be priced (soon) n-1 products and may seduce more at this discounted price.
    No gain with hardware margins ... then force bundle discounts for Enterprises makes sense => CALs.

    About apps, I believe, if anywhere, that's in enterprise where the "lack-of" is the less sensible. Either because solution-specific clients exists or that the ease of porting/developing offers a great opportunities for company-specific ones.

    It's fair to look in the mirror, but when i look into it, the main problem I see is "bad timing" or more specifically "wrong tempo".
    Last but not least, as much as I've been compliant with F. Boulben's "in the hood" work, I believe the brand has been deprecated on the image front and there's something to be done urgently ... and what I can observe these last days let me hope about this matter.
    The issue is that BlackBerry's current reputation, which is based on what they have done, prevents them from being able to demand comparable pricing for equivalent hardware, but they try to demand more for less with this reputation. They need to rebuild the name brand and people's trust, and need to get people to give them a shot based on price. Once they build the base and the brand back up, then they can up the prices. When Apple released the iPhone they had a good sized, rabid fan base who went out and evangelized for a revolutionary product. BlackBerry obviously doesn't have this as they have had a lot of people leave or get fed up, and their initial Bb10 offerings were lacking compared to what was out. The Z30 may be awesome, but with only one carrier in the US, out of whack pricing, and NO Advertising it won't go anywhere, and I would wager that sales worldwide will be following the same trend.

    Posted via CB10
    Superfly_FR and kbz1960 like this.
    12-04-13 01:58 PM
  20. Loc22's Avatar
    While you're rewriting history, you should "educate" Chen. He told enterprise customers that the "For Sale" sign is down. So apparently he thought it was up.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    I have to conceed that those of you who argue according to this line of thought is totally missing the point & truly do not understand what is written in the media you are just taking the words written in the media literally & not examining it critically.

    This is a really long story & perhaps if you are interested to know you need to go back & study the history of the case. I have to say that if I am a professor in business or finance management I will include this as a case study to my students. This is a very interesting case to study.

    Posted via CB10
    12-04-13 02:10 PM
  21. qbnkelt's Avatar
    BlackBerry has a 100% open source commitment to devs. Bb10 itself is closed source however utilizing Android compliments the 100% open source commitment

    Posted via CB10


    .......what????........
    kbz1960 and Troy Tiscareno like this.
    12-04-13 02:43 PM
  22. cgk's Avatar
    I have to conceed that those of you who argue according to this line of thought is totally missing the point & truly do not understand what is written in the media you are just taking the words written in the media literally & not examining it critically.

    This is a really long story & perhaps if you are interested to know you need to go back & study the history of the case. I have to say that if I am a professor in business or finance management I will include this as a case study to my students. This is a very interesting case to study.

    Posted via CB10
    I am and I do - I pair it with a case-study on Nokia - lot of in-depth material published in the Finnish media about what went wrong at Nokia.
    JeepBB likes this.
    12-04-13 02:47 PM
  23. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    Well shipped ain't sold so throwing around the magical 10 million number means Jack Squat.
    Yes, though it's sometimes misinterpreted that manufacturers can keep piling in inventory into the channels and the channels will keep taking it. It doesn't work that way and gets corrected pretty fast ... see the PlayBook and Z10 writedowns specifically. If shipments pick back up after the write-downs (as they did with the playbook), it means the inventory that was written down was selling through and that more inventory is being taken in usually.
    12-04-13 02:54 PM
  24. southlander's Avatar
    2) You are working on the basis that the technical merits of the OS are significant factors, they are hygiene factors and are since most OSes are of a muchness to modern consumers, factors such as pricing, ecosystem, branding are more important
    This is something I've noticed about BlackBerry over the years. It's almost like Intel or Cisco making a smartphone. Technically very good designs from the viewpoint of efficiency, security, and practicality of use. But incapable of understanding what makes consumers want the product.

    I remember years ago reading Robert X. Cringely -- who wrote about how afraid Microsoft was of Intel getting into making its own operating systems for its hardware. In retrospect, I can see Intel touting the technical merits of the "Intel OS".. more efficient architecture than Windows that uses X Y Z exclusive features of some new Intel chips/chipsets blah blah blah. While Microsoft pile drives them into the pavement with marketing and building out the Windows platform by getting developers to make the applications folks want to use.
    12-04-13 03:57 PM
  25. techvisor's Avatar
    so your saying that what you think BlackBerry is and what it will be is the only truth?

    CLICK HERE To Join My Music & Poetry Channel. Please&Thanks.
    The numbers are facts, in which a statistically derived trendline can be created. The trend indicates a bleak future for BlackBerry. Himan76's view on BlackBerry is the truth, rooted in reality and objectivity. Your view is distorted.
    12-04-13 08:25 PM
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