12-06-13 06:29 AM
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  1. dusdal's Avatar
    12-03-13 10:25 PM
  2. kevinnugent's Avatar
    Japan dropped BB a while ago. My buddy left RIM to work for Sqaure and says you can't get a BB here so he was forced to use an iphone. he is sad every day.

    Spain i understand they are bankrupt

    china I understand they are commys and hate no spying

    only one that sucks is USA at zero.
    I really can't find anything in this that I can agree with. Sorry.

    From what I hear, Blackberry pulled out of Japan not the other way round. I think it was all too hard with the different language issues.

    How does Spain's economy affect Blackberry sales to that extent? There are a LOT more countries in Europe with worse basket case economies and Blackberry sell in some of them.

    China ... like japan is just too hard for Blackberry imo. Apple struggled in that market for a long time until they've finally cracked it - I understand the new iphone models go into China Mobile in the next couple of weeks.

    The USA? That's a hard one. They are consumers by nature, and Blackberry should be doing well there. But through misstep after misstep, they've tarnished their brand there. Irretrievably? Hard to say.
    JeepBB likes this.
    12-03-13 11:06 PM
  3. southlander's Avatar
    Typo?

    CLICK HERE To Join My Music & Poetry Channel. Please&Thanks.
    Nope. All of the major Android OEMs, for the most part are paying royalties to Microsoft for fear of being sued. Android is based on Linux. Many years ago Microsoft started threatening lawsuits against Linux OEMs based on their claim that Linux infringes on Windows patents. But in order to see which patents are involved folks have had to sign NDAs with Microsoft as I remember it. To this day none of it has come to court that I know of. And think about it. With so many companies that have seen the patents and paid up, it seems Microsoft probably is in a strong position.

    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1055
    Last edited by southlander; 12-04-13 at 01:47 AM.
    Superfly_FR likes this.
    12-04-13 01:35 AM
  4. 12Danny123's Avatar
    Nope. All of the major Android OEMs, for the most part are paying royalties to Microsoft for fear of being sued. Android is based on Linux. Many years ago Microsoft started threatening lawsuits against Linux OEMs based on their claims that Linux infringes on Windows patents. But in order to see which patents are involved folks have had to sign NDAs with Microsoft as I remember it. To this day none of it has come to court that I know. And think about it. With so many companies that have seen the patents and paid up, it seems Microsoft probably is in a strong position.

    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1055
    well. Google's Motorola has went to court and MS won. and now Google has to pay MS for making android phones. Motorola's patents are worthless
    12-04-13 01:47 AM
  5. southlander's Avatar
    well. Google's Motorola has went to court and MS won. and now Google has to pay MS for making android phones. Motorola's patents are worthless
    Interesting.

    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1055
    12-04-13 01:48 AM
  6. 12Danny123's Avatar
    Interesting.

    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1055
    Though I agree with you. Microsoft is probably the most feared Company in the tech industry to Android OEMs. Microsoft holds so much power over them. It's massive. it's gonna get worse for BB and Android OEMs when Microsoft buys Nokia's handset business and hardware patents. and uses those patents to get more money from them. also it's rumored that Microsoft is going to charge Windows phone's fee for free. They'll basically gonna make Android expensive and make WP attractive and make them join WP. which we seen the case over Oppo, Lenovo, LG and Micromax
    12-04-13 02:14 AM
  7. southlander's Avatar
    Though I agree with you. Microsoft is probably the most feared Company in the tech industry to Android OEMs. Microsoft holds so much power over them. It's massive. it's gonna get worse for BB and Android OEMs when Microsoft buys Nokia's handset business and hardware patents. and uses those patents to get more money from them. also it's rumored that Microsoft is going to charge Windows phone's fee for free. They'll basically gonna make Android expensive and make WP attractive and make them join WP. which we seen the case over Oppo, Lenovo, LG and Micromax
    Yeah this is very interesting I agree. But I will refrain from carrying on since it's derailing the thread. Thanks.

    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1055
    Superfly_FR and kbz1960 like this.
    12-04-13 02:18 AM
  8. mnc76's Avatar
    It's not too late, assuming Chen decides to flush billions down the toilet gamble and soldier on in the handset market. I think "Turducken" would make a helluva name for a smartphone.
    Maybe I'll do an experiment. I'll get some vinyl and create a cool AlienOS logo and paste over the BlackBerry logo on my Z10, and paste a cool, minimal/abstract alien head over the BB symbol on the back. Then when people ask me about my phone, I'll say "it's this cool new phone from these crowd-funded swedish open source devs -- everybody is going crazy over them!" and see what the reaction is to the phone I wonder if the reaction would be better or worse than if I told them "it's a BlackBerry"
    12-04-13 03:28 AM
  9. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    BlackBerry has a 100% open source commitment to devs. Bb10 itself is closed source however utilizing Android compliments the 100% open source commitment

    Posted via CB10
    How would you define vicarious embrasement?
    Look at the first post I quoted.

    These are the moments where the face-palm combined with a face-desk while making a face-plant, aren't enough to forget how embrassed one feels for the user Missing_K-W.

    If he doesn't get paid to do this, he probably should think about making it his job...
    Or maybe he should become a comedian?
    I can't be the only one who laughs because of him, since it's already so sad that I can't even cry anymore?

    @Topic:

    It's no wonder since the BB10 devices are pretty overpriced, but neither have the hardware features nor the ecosystem to warrant their price tag.

    The "for sale" sign probably didn't help BlackBerry as well to move more devices.
    That carriers don't want their phones anymore (Z30) didn't help either.

    Well, that the competition is objectively better for the average buying public hasn't helped the adoption as well.

    On the other hand, there has been a huge amount of mismanagement in the last few quarters.
    It's on the level where I would say that University students could have made a better job at launching the new platform.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 12-04-13 at 05:36 AM.
    JeepBB and mikeo007 like this.
    12-04-13 04:08 AM
  10. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    The focus will be more on software that's why they are cutting handsets. 6 a year is ridiculous.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.0.1803
    You do know about Samsung, right?
    THE most successful Android player and handset manufacturer to date?

    You do know, that one of their main reasons for having this incredibly huge marketshare and corresponding sales, is because they have a variety of phones for different price points, with different hardware and different form-factors?

    In BlackBerry's case, a number of 6 phones should actually be the minimum of phones they sell.
    3 Touch only and 3 physical keyboard phones, from low to high-end.
    Right now, they have no real high-end phone, as the Z30 is just an overpriced mid-range device and they have no low-end phone, because they don't sell smartphones with the price of one.

    More models produced, at least if they use the same hardware, like the Q10 and Z10, help you to get better and positive economies of scale.
    Since the premise is, that the more models I have, the more phones I sell, it seems natural to also get better economies of scale, when I sell more phones.
    They should drop the mid-range QWERTY and go with a slider though.
    As we have seen with the Q5, the mid-range QWERTY is pretty much unimportant.

    Posted via CB10
    JeepBB likes this.
    12-04-13 04:32 AM
  11. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    Right now, they have no real high-end phone, as the Z30 is just an overpriced mid-range device and they have no low-end phone
    Don't want to derail here either. But if you consider Z30 as an overpriced mid-range device, I assume you never used it. That is, perception is king ...
    12-04-13 05:06 AM
  12. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Maybe a reason there's the 9720 ? (under the $260 mark off contract here in Europe : curve-like).

    He's clearly positioned as-is in the Indian press, if I read it correctly.
    Blackberry 9720 Price in India 3 Dec 2013|Buy Blackberry 9720 Mobile Phone specification|Sulekha Mobiles

    About pricing there, its around RS15,000

    Edit: and also, it would be embarrassing to believe these giant areas have only "poor" citizens and weak enterprises. Smartphone emergence is also a signal these areas are "emerging" no more ... and close to "emerged".
    The only reasons why the 9720 came to the market, was that BlackBerry still had some parts left from their previous BBOS phones and because they were unwilling at best, unable at worst, to sell the Q5 for a normal price.

    The 9720 itself was a huge waste of time, and dilluted the image of a brand trying to show the world how much it changed.
    Instead of making an affordable BB10 device, they launch an overpriced BBOS phone.
    That doesn't sell your theoretical customers a certain level of confidence in your own and new OS. Rather the contrary.

    The smartphone adoption rate in India is at about 20% right now, while China has about 70%.
    http://www.techinasia.com/nielsen-re...-asia-pacific/
    ^
    This is a huge gap, between both countries, but it shows two things nonetheless:

    1) They like smartphones.
    2) These smartphones need to be cheap.

    Why 2) ?
    Well, because they are emerging markets with a GDP/Capita that is pretty low compared to countries like the US, France or Germany.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_...GDP_per_capita
    ^
    It's at about 1219$ per average a year, for India.
    That's not a lot of money to run around and buy an iPhone that costs 800$.

    Now let's take China:
    The GDP/Capita in a year is at about 6600$ a year.
    That sounds a lot better.
    Until you see that 30% of the Chinese live with less than 2$ a day.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_China

    Let's compare it with the USA and France:
    GDP/Capita of about 41000$ a year in France and about 50000$ in the USA.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_France
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy..._United_States

    This economic disparity is the reason why cheap and local Android manufacturers are so extremely popular and successful in emerging markets:
    The masses won't be able to afford an iPhone or a Galaxy or a Z30 for quite some time to come.

    http://thenextweb.com/asia/2013/06/2...annual-growth/
    ^
    With India as an example, we see that very clearly.
    Cheap and affordable quality devices are the way to go in these regions.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 12-04-13 at 05:31 AM.
    cgk, JeepBB and flyingsolid like this.
    12-04-13 05:14 AM
  13. crucial bbq's Avatar
    Isn't kantar methodology based on consumer surveys and excludes corporate purchases, which would make BlackBerry look even worse? Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Posted via CB10. Join C001A8DC6 for bento-inspired lunch ideas
    Any statistic based on voluntary participation is flawed from the beginning.
    12-04-13 05:24 AM
  14. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Don't want to derail here either. But if you consider Z30 as an overpriced mid-range device, I assume you never used it. That is, perception is king ...
    I used it.
    For longer than an hour.
    For me, just like the Moto X, another device the market has punished, the Z30 is an overpriced midrange device with hardware from last year.
    And I mean exactly that.

    Compared to the Sony Z1, the LG G2 or even the Note 3, the Z30 is a mid-range device.
    This wouldn't be problematic if the Z30 wouldn't be priced like a high-end device.

    The 3 phones evoked before, all have a better camera, a better CPU, a better GPU, a 1080p display, a better app catalogue and a better ecosystem.
    But they all have about the same price.
    When we compare these devices, the Z30 is only a midrange device, and should be priced as such.

    I used every phone for more than an hour, I talk about in this post.
    I have real life experiences with all of them, and the Z30 is objectively overpriced.
    (The most overpriced BB10 device is still the Q5 though).

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 12-04-13 at 05:41 AM.
    cgk, JeepBB, kevinnugent and 1 others like this.
    12-04-13 05:25 AM
  15. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    I used it.
    For longer than an hour.
    I understand most, don't want to derail further.
    I use it for more than a month. In the meantime, how many hangs, reboots, battery flat or ROM flash for most of the devices you list ?
    To be clear : I score 0 with my Z (if you except leaks install, of course).
    My point is that is is all based on user perception; I don't deny the devices you list are good devices.
    But after almost 20 years in I.T, I know brutal specs <> efficiency. They often hide or try to balance a poor global experience.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    12-04-13 06:05 AM
  16. missing_K-W's Avatar
    How would you define vicarious embrasement?
    Look at the first post I quoted.

    These are the moments where the face-palm combined with a face-desk while making a face-plant, aren't enough to forget how embrassed one feels for the user Missing_K-W.

    If he doesn't get paid to do this, he probably should think about making it his job...
    Or maybe he should become a comedian?
    I can't be the only one who laughs because of him, since it's already so sad that I can't even cry anymore?

    @Topic:

    It's no wonder since the BB10 devices are pretty overpriced, but neither have the hardware features nor the ecosystem to warrant their price tag.

    The "for sale" sign probably didn't help BlackBerry as well to move more devices.
    That carriers don't want their phones anymore (Z30) didn't help either.

    Well, that the competition is objectively better for the average buying public hasn't helped the adoption as well.

    On the other hand, there has been a huge amount of mismanagement in the last few quarters.
    It's on the level where I would say that University students could have made a better job at launching the new platform.

    Posted via CB10
    What's up with the rude comment?

    Posted via CB10
    12-04-13 06:18 AM
  17. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    I understand most, don't want to derail further.
    I use it for more than a month. In the meantime, how many hangs, reboots, battery flat or ROM flash for most of the devices you list ?
    To be clear : I score 0 with my Z (if you except leaks install, of course).
    My point is that is is all based on user perception; I don't deny the devices you list are good devices.
    But after almost 20 years in I.T, I know brutal specs <> efficiency. They often hide or try to balance a poor global experience.
    Don't worry, I don't feel as if this would derail the topic, since it is about BlackBerry's sale numbers.
    And they are inherently linked to the competition.

    The average consumer doesn't flash his Android ROM. He/She doesn't reload software and if something really wouldn't work on her/his Android to the point of him/her really being annoyed, she/he would probably buy an iPhone because the perception of Apple is: " it just works".

    Since we see that Android gains marketshare, instead of losing it, we can safely say that most people must be happy enough with their Android powered device, to not switch OS.
    (WP, just like BB10 has yet to prove itself)

    If you worked for 20 years in the IT sector (with someone who has this much experience, I sometimes miss an English equivalent to the French "vous") you probably should know how hard it was/is to get certain people to make backups.
    Or how incompetent they are, when they should install an important update that closes security holes.
    Or... Well, I am sure that this list could continue endlessly...

    My point is: if Android would be so bad, clunky, laggy, unstable and confusing, we would see a far stronger demand for Apple, BlackBerry and Nokia phones, than we do today.

    I totally understand your point though, because we have seen it with iOS and WP, how magnificent these platforms can work without using high-end specs.
    But you just can't say that Android overall provides a bad experience.
    Most people are perfectly happy with it, and there is another component that you seem to ignore as well:

    Specs help you to justify the price of your goods.
    Why should I buy a PC for 1500$, if I can have one for 500$? Because it has better specs, with all its implications.

    Why should I buy a Porsche Cayman for 60000$, if I can buy a Peugeot 407 Coupe for 30000$?
    Because it has better specs.
    (My background is in economics, so it's pretty sure that I will look at these things from another POV as you would.)

    Posted via CB10
    kbz1960 likes this.
    12-04-13 06:30 AM
  18. lnichols's Avatar
    I understand most, don't want to derail further.
    I use it for more than a month. In the meantime, how many hangs, reboots, battery flat or ROM flash for most of the devices you list ?
    To be clear : I score 0 with my Z (if you except leaks install, of course).
    My point is that is is all based on user perception; I don't deny the devices you list are good devices.
    But after almost 20 years in I.T, I know brutal specs <> efficiency. They often hide or try to balance a poor global experience.
    Yes but those devices are being sold with more expensive components at the same price as the BlackBerry which is using less expensive components. You can't deny that BlackBerry's pricing strategy combined with its tarnished reputation are two of the main reasons BB10 sales are poor. I was never going to buy another Z10 (I have tow in the family and two iPhone 5) but the $199 price for it was too good to pass up and I'm upgrading my college son from a 9360 to it for Christmas even though an Android or iPhone would be better probably since his college has apps for those platforms. Hopefully 10.2.1 will make that issue null. The point is I was done throwing BlackBerry money after all the botched events of this year and price got me to give them more. I wouldn't buy a Z30 for $600, but $450 unlocked is a fair price IMHO based on the specs compared to what else is out there, the app situation, and the fact that BlackBerry as a company has been pretty lousy to the customers over the past few years.

    Posted via CB10
    12-04-13 06:33 AM
  19. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    What's up with the rude comment?

    Posted via CB10
    This happens when I read the same nonsensical statement, 300 times, in 50 different threads.
    Even though you were told 600 times, how nonsensical it is.
    I still wonder how you got the idea to seriously proclaim that BB10 has "better Android than Android"...

    Nothing personal, as I'd say the same thing to everyone else, giving us the same performance.
    I kind of liked you in the beginning, because I found your naivity kind of adorable, but that feeling is long gone now.

    (btw, don't start a contest based on likes this time. I win on overall likes )

    Posted via CB10
    chr1sny, ccbs and kevinnugent like this.
    12-04-13 06:35 AM
  20. missing_K-W's Avatar
    This happens when I read the same nonsensical statement, 300 times, in 50 different threads.
    Even though you were told 600 times, how nonsensical it is.
    I still wonder how you got the idea to seriously proclaim that BB10 has "better Android than Android"...

    Nothing personal, as I'd say the same thing to everyone else, giving us the same performance.
    I kind of liked you in the beginning, because I found your naivity kind of adorable, but that feeling is long gone now.

    (btw, don't start a contest based on likes this time. I win on overall likes )

    Posted via CB10
    The personal insults aren't in good taste. Thanks for your perspective was cute



    Posted via CB10
    12-04-13 06:47 AM
  21. thevacantsoul's Avatar
    This happens when I read the same nonsensical statement, 300 times, in 50 different threads.
    Even though you were told 600 times, how nonsensical it is.
    I still wonder how you got the idea to seriously proclaim that BB10 has "better Android than Android"...

    Nothing personal, as I'd say the same thing to everyone else, giving us the same performance.
    I kind of liked you in the beginning, because I found your naivity kind of adorable, but that feeling is long gone now.

    (btw, don't start a contest based on likes this time. I win on overall likes )

    Posted via CB10
    Thanks.
    Seriously, it's gotten to the point when I see missing-kw show up in thread, I know it's about get either derailed or get riddled with nonsense like 'better android than android' crap. It's so repetitive and is just getting old. I don't think he realizes he makes even hard core bb fans look bad.
    12-04-13 07:07 AM
  22. mjs416's Avatar
    Thanks.
    Seriously, it's gotten to the point when I see missing-kw show up in thread, I know it's about get either derailed or get riddled with nonsense like 'better android than android' crap. It's so repetitive and is just getting old. I don't think he realizes he makes even hard core bb fans look bad.
    A quick search of your post history shows your posts are garbage too. What's your point?

    Posted via CB10
    12-04-13 07:18 AM
  23. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    The only reasons why the 9720 came to the market, was that BlackBerry still had some parts left from their previous BBOS phones and because they were unwilling at best, unable at worst, to sell the Q5 for a normal price.

    The 9720 itself was a huge waste of time, and dilluted the image of a brand trying to show the world how much it changed.
    Instead of making an affordable BB10 device, they launch an overpriced BBOS phone.
    That doesn't sell your theoretical customers a certain level of confidence in your own and new OS. Rather the contrary.
    The 9720 has been issued to renew the OS7 device range. Nothing more, nothing less.
    What it is about ? Still use BIS where data plan cost is the key (and where BB10 with enhanced connect experience does not make sense, i.e: would drain data plan with localization alone).
    It's a curve-like (for us = low range) while Q5 is low-medium range (still for us).
    In India, it is on the same price range than 9320 (add the "novely" as the difference - look all price to make an average)
    BlackBerry sales drop near zero in US, China, Spain and Japan, research says-capture.png

    Now, I understand your GDP point, but it's a little static IMHO.
    India population alone is 1.2Billion (~ 4X U.S.A). Just mind about 10% ... that's 120million => Compares to 40% Market Shares in U.S.
    12-04-13 07:18 AM
  24. texazzpete's Avatar
    Huawei lenovo and htc sell more than BlackBerry ? With what facts ? Samsung takes the largest percentage of android sells and no other android oem comes close..

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.0.1803
    Huawei, Lenovo and HTC sell MILLIONS more phones than Blackberry does. Not sure if you were serious or just ignorant of other platforms.

    BlackBerry sales drop near zero in US, China, Spain and Japan, research says-smartphonegartner.png

    Even Sony outsell BlackBerry, ditto for LG.

    By next year when the first Tizen smartphones start being pumped into the marketplace by Samsung, BlackBerry will find themselves battling for the 4th position
    MarsupilamiX and JeepBB like this.
    12-04-13 07:25 AM
  25. texazzpete's Avatar
    The personal insults aren't in good taste. Thanks for your perspective was cute
    Posted via CB10
    To be fair, it isn't in good taste to keep insisting 10 million Blackberry 10 devices will be sold by year end even when it's been conclusively and convincingly shown to you that this is a pipe dream.

    Oh, you're the "Better Android than Android" guy?
    JeepBB, mnc76 and chr1sny like this.
    12-04-13 07:27 AM
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