01-12-15 03:15 PM
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  1. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    I'll caveat this by saying that I'm not an App developer, but I have been a developer and led software teams in my past...

    It not the coding that is the major cost of getting BBM running on WP. Obviously cutting code isn't zero-cost but it's the cost of maintenance of multiple versions on multiple platforms, testing on multiple platforms, bug fixing (some global bugs, some platform specific), and the costs associated with adding new features to distinct codebases on multiple platforms (plus the costs of testing, bug-fixing, etc on each new version of BBM - on each platform - that is released) ... that really adds to the cost of development.

    As I've said above, I actually agree with BB's decision to only develop xBBM for iOS and Android because (IMO) they simply haven't got the money or resources to fund a development for WinPhone whilst they're busy sorting out the reported bugs, and adding features, on those other two platforms. I remain struck by the irony of blaming low WinPhone market share as the excuse BB have given for taking that decision, but I do think it's the correct decision.
    I can somewhat agree with what you're saying. Well, more accurately, I understand the stance you're taking. However, from my experiences with development projects, I can't help but feel that the current project structure should already mitigate a substantial portion of any WP development costs. WP BBM development should be an extension of the current BBM/xBBM project infrastructure, much of it utilizing what is already in place.
    01-22-14 03:06 PM
  2. JeepBB's Avatar
    As you know I agree with you on many topics. However on this I don't agree. Also as a software developer /team lead I think they really need to spend this money on WP bbm in order to claim their position as market leader. Given they've just invested a billion bucks and released cash from property they MUST fully support their R&D and engineering. You can't build a successfully tech company just by corporate wheeling and dealing, boardroom reshuffles and tax management.
    It's OK, we won't fall out over this disagreement. I'm British - amiability is in my DNA!

    I do agree that BB need to get BBM as a genuine cross-platform App (I've said as much in my post above this one)... where I differ is that I don't think they should do it "now". It would be too much to take on IMO.
    01-22-14 03:10 PM
  3. JeepBB's Avatar
    I can somewhat agree with what you're saying. Well, more accurately, I understand the stance you're taking. However, from my experiences with development projects, I can't help but feel that the current project structure should already mitigate a substantial portion of any WP development costs. WP BBM development should be an extension of the current BBM/xBBM project infrastructure, much of it utilizing what is already in place.
    Yeah, again, I sort of agree.

    If BB have been smart and utilise a core xBBM codebase with modular platform extensions that can be "swapped"... then maintenance costs can be mitigated, but not eliminated. However, given that I hear of bugs affecting iOS, but not Android, in areas that must surely be core xBBM behaviour such as D/R processing... maybe BB haven't been as smart?

    As to the codebase for BB10, that's different again isn't it? There are features in native BBM that aren't yet in xBBM, aren't there? Which would tend to indicate that BB don't have a unified core BBM product which they can extend.

    That may be unfair as I'm not privy to the BBM development, but... I do wonder.
    DenverRalphy likes this.
    01-22-14 03:26 PM
  4. Thesmartmale's Avatar
    Actually, I think Ralphy uses an Android phone.

    If anyone has unfairly maligned you, then that's unfortunate.

    However, given the relative marketshare figures of WinPhone in the UK, a historically strong BB market, of 11% vs BB10's 0.75% (1/4 of 3%), the sheer statistical unlikelihood of you (at random) seeing eight times as many BB10 handsets as WinPhones ... well, I'm sure it strikes most here as an unusual statistical freak - to put it mildly.

    I think you'd find the same degree of scepticism had you reported that out of ten coin-tosses, the coin had landed on it's edge 5 times. That's not impossible either, just very, very, very unlikely.
    I don't live in the UK!! And as I said before that's what I saw, believe it or not, maybe you all live in the UK that's why you guys think that what I said is incorrect.

    Posted via CB10
    01-22-14 03:35 PM
  5. JeepBB's Avatar
    I don't live in the UK!! And as I said before that's what I saw, believe it or not, maybe you all live in the UK that's why you guys think that what I said is incorrect.
    Nope, we I think you're incorrect because your report is so statistically unlikely.

    The UK at 3% is the best market for BB in the whole of Europe. Elsewhere in Europe, and generally worldwide, BB's market share is much, much smaller. Down to 0.1% in places, which gives BB10 handsets (3:1 outsold by legacy BB phones) a market share that is zero for all practical purposes.

    Unfortunately, that doesn't make your report of seeing eight times as many BB10 handsets as WinPhones any more likely I'm afraid.
    propeller10 likes this.
    01-22-14 03:43 PM
  6. sixpacker's Avatar
    I don't live in the UK!! And as I said before that's what I saw, believe it or not, maybe you all live in the UK that's why you guys think that what I said is incorrect.

    Posted via CB10
    I also live in the UK!
    My personal experience (commuting on the main West coast rail network) is seeing massive numbers of iPhones /sammys, 3 bb10 devices and maybe a dozen WP phones. Quite a few legacy BBOS devices too.
    Not disputing you're personal observation, but it's clear Microsoft are going to put big bucks into WP and is share will grow. BBM not supporting it will limit adoption which is bad news when pushing to be the market leader.

    Posted via SwiftKey / htc one
    propeller10 likes this.
    01-22-14 03:58 PM
  7. Thesmartmale's Avatar
    The bolded portion of your reply seems to indicate that you found this thread to be a WP users -vs- BB debate. I don't know where you came to that conclusion though. This thread is about BBM fans wanting BBM to extend to WP devices, which most here would probably agree is better for BBM (and BBRY) as a result. I don't recall any WP fans in this thread trying to prove WP is superior to BB. Just a bunch of users trying to justify BBM's expansion in the cross platform market.
    I'm not taking it this way, I said and saying that it's the right decision that BBM isn't coming to WP for now because the return is less than the effort needed to make and support the app (for now) because WPs market share is SO small compared to Android and IOS and comparing BlackBerrys market share to WPs share is dumb because this thread is not a BlackBerry vs WP like you say, unfortunately a lot did in this thread and turned it into a comparison and hate towards BBM and BlackBerry just Because BBM isn't coming to WP, go look at the thread in WP about BBM and see some of the posts there, let alone people accusing you of lying just because you saw something different than what they saw.

    Posted via CB10
    01-22-14 04:13 PM
  8. Thesmartmale's Avatar
    I also live in the UK!
    My personal experience (commuting on the main West coast rail network) is seeing massive numbers of iPhones /sammys, 3 bb10 devices and maybe a dozen WP phones. Quite a few legacy BBOS devices too.
    Not disputing you're personal observation, but it's clear Microsoft are going to put big bucks into WP and is share will grow. BBM not supporting it will limit adoption which is bad news when pushing to be the market leader.

    Posted via SwiftKey / htc one
    Good, I believe you, I'm not gonna call you a lair or say " oh and I saw 193630 BB10 devices and a 89 WP device" like someone here did.

    Posted via CB10
    01-22-14 04:16 PM
  9. Thesmartmale's Avatar
    Nope, we I think you're incorrect because your report is so statistically unlikely.

    The UK at 3% is the best market for BB in the whole of Europe. Elsewhere in Europe, and generally worldwide, BB's market share is much, much smaller. Down to 0.1% in places, which gives BB10 handsets (3:1 outsold by legacy BB phones) a market share that is zero for all practical purposes.

    Unfortunately, that doesn't make your report of seeing eight times as many BB10 handsets as WinPhones any more likely I'm afraid.
    Have you been to the Middle East? No, well this is one of the biggest markets for BlackBerry, no one even looks at WP here, so again, don't suspect that what I saw is wrong unless you know where I live.

    Posted via CB10
    01-22-14 04:23 PM
  10. sleepngbear's Avatar
    Here's my twisted take on the matter. Forgive me if it's already been posed, but I'm just not up to wading through 200 posts to find it if it has.

    MS is BBRY's closest competitor in the mobile space. iOS and Android are just too far out of reach right now, and offering BBM on those platforms isn't going to change the landscape any at this point, and will likely help BBRY more than hurt in the long run. MS with WP, on the other hand, can be overtaken; and because it's still technically a horse race for #3, it is not in BBRY's best interest to to give MS anything that could potentially improve their position, no matter how small an advantage that might be. Not to discount any of the other factors that have been brought up here, because they may be playing into the equation as well.
    Thesmartmale and Morty2264 like this.
    01-22-14 04:26 PM
  11. propeller10's Avatar
    Here's my twisted take on the matter. Forgive me if it's already been posed, but I'm just not up to wading through 200 posts to find it if it has.

    MS is BBRY's closest competitor in the mobile space. iOS and Android are just too far out of reach right now, and offering BBM on those platforms isn't going to change the landscape any at this point, and will likely help BBRY more than hurt in the long run. MS with WP, on the other hand, can be overtaken; and because it's still technically a horse race for #3, it is not in BBRY's best interest to to give MS anything that could potentially improve their position, no matter how small an advantage that might be. Not to discount any of the other factors that have been brought up here, because they may be playing into the equation as well.
    Correct me if I am wrong but Chen's new strategy does not involve directly competing against platforms such as WP. Also it would be a mistake to ignore WP with Whatsapp, viber and kik being available to every platform.
    JeepBB likes this.
    01-22-14 04:31 PM
  12. FFR's Avatar
    Have you been to the Middle East? No, well this is one of the biggest markets for BlackBerry, no one even looks at WP here, so again, don't suspect that what I saw is wrong unless you know where I live.

    Posted via CB10
    I have.
    Truth be told the market in the Middle East isn't reacting favorably towards bb10.

    "BlackBerry users have also been shifting to different devices now that BlackBerry Messenger (BBM) is available on iPhone and Android phones."

    And

    "Googles Android phones now account for 80 per cent of the smartphone market across the Middle East according to the US-based research house IDC. Nokias Lumia Windows phones are also getting some traction in the Middle East with 8 per cent of the market share since the company launched cheaper versions of its flagship handset.

    Apple and BlackBerry each held 6.9 per cent of the market share in the third quarter of 2013.
    "

    http://m.thenational.ae/business/ind...pular-handsets
    JeepBB likes this.
    01-22-14 04:34 PM
  13. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Here's my twisted take on the matter. Forgive me if it's already been posed, but I'm just not up to wading through 200 posts to find it if it has.

    MS is BBRY's closest competitor in the mobile space. iOS and Android are just too far out of reach right now, and offering BBM on those platforms isn't going to change the landscape any at this point, and will likely help BBRY more than hurt in the long run. MS with WP, on the other hand, can be overtaken; and because it's still technically a horse race for #3, it is not in BBRY's best interest to to give MS anything that could potentially improve their position, no matter how small an advantage that might be. Not to discount any of the other factors that have been brought up here, because they may be playing into the equation as well.
    I don't know that platform competition is applicable. BBM is now a separate product from BB devices. When trying to push and market BBM now, the only competition to consider would be competing IM services. When a product is trying to compete in the Cross Platform arena, that product has to be 100% platform agnostic if it wishes to be a contender.

    SwiftKeyed/Flowed via Tapatalk 4 Beta
    propeller10, JeepBB and kbz1960 like this.
    01-22-14 04:40 PM
  14. Thesmartmale's Avatar
    I have.
    Truth be told the market in the Middle East isn't reacting favorably towards bb10.

    "BlackBerry users have also been shifting to different devices now that BlackBerry Messenger (BBM) is available on iPhone and Android phones."

    And

    "Googles Android phones now account for 80 per cent of the smartphone market across the Middle East according to the US-based research house IDC. Nokias Lumia Windows phones are also getting some traction in the Middle East with 8 per cent of the market share since the company launched cheaper versions of its flagship handset.

    Apple and BlackBerry each held 6.9 per cent of the market share in the third quarter of 2013.
    "

    http://m.thenational.ae/business/ind...pular-handsets
    So you're telling me that WP has more market share than iPhone in the Middle East? If that's what this source is saying then it's a BIG FAT LIE! And if you really did go there you would have noticed that Android devices are the most seen, followed by iPhone devices followed by BlackBerry devices and at last comes WP.

    True, some people moved to another platforms when BBM became available to all BUT lots of BlackBerry devices are out there, BB10 devices are out there too, not as much as BBOS device but they are definitely more than WP devices and you can simply go stand in "Jarir" in the mobile phones section and see how many people ask about bb10 devices and how many ask about WP devices, you can't even compare.

    Posted via CB10
    01-22-14 05:04 PM
  15. ingris's Avatar
    Would be great if BlackBerry entered an agreement with Microsoft whereby BlackBerry creates a BBM app for Windows phone and in exchange Microsoft revamps their Skype preview app into a kick *** fully native bb10 app.

    Posted via CB10
    01-22-14 05:27 PM
  16. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Perhaps a bit off topic... But why is Skype a go to example?

    Yes, I understand that one could point out the similarities in deployment (or lack thereof). But I have yet to fully recognize why so many people are so adamant about Skype support. Since its inception, I've always cringed when I learn that I'll have to use Skype for correspondence. In my humble opinion, it's always been a mediocre solution when better options are available.

    SwiftKeyed/Flowed via Tapatalk 4 Beta
    southlander likes this.
    01-22-14 05:41 PM
  17. FFR's Avatar
    So you're telling me that WP has more market share than iPhone in the Middle East? If that's what this source is saying then it's a BIG FAT LIE! And if you really did go there you would have noticed that Android devices are the most seen, followed by iPhone devices followed by BlackBerry devices and at last comes WP.

    True, some people moved to another platforms when BBM became available to all BUT lots of BlackBerry devices are out there, BB10 devices are out there too, not as much as BBOS device but they are definitely more than WP devices and you can simply go stand in "Jarir" in the mobile phones section and see how many people ask about bb10 devices and how many ask about WP devices, you can't even compare.

    Posted via CB10
    I'm not IDC is.
    Those figures were for q3 2013 that's as current as I could find.

    From what I have personally seen in the Middle East:

    Android (mostly Samsung and htc)
    iPhone
    Bb legacy*
    Windows mobile
    Bb10*

    I'm basing this solely on my travels to Dubai, Doha, Jeddah, and Kuwait over the course of 2013.

    *declining very rapidly with the introduction of bbmx and what's apps soaring popularity in the region.

    Btw:
    Lumia sales reached about 22 million units last year vs bb10's 6 million devices shipped.
    01-22-14 05:41 PM
  18. pankaler's Avatar
    Here in my area i've seen only one bb10 (blue Q) and so many bb curve, torch and bold.

    Sent using Tapatalk
    01-22-14 05:55 PM
  19. Jas00555's Avatar
    I know I've already posted my opinion on this, but I just feel... Not sick, but distressed whenever I see the title of this thread pop up. WP HAS to get BBM.

    It seems as if my dream of one day owning a Nokia Lumia 900 or 920 is temporarily derailed... For now.

    Posted via CB10
    Go 920 100%, the 900 is a WP7 and isn't worth it by a long shot.

    Posted via CB10
    01-22-14 06:40 PM
  20. Thesmartmale's Avatar
    I'm not IDC is.
    Those figures were for q3 2013 that's as current as I could find.

    From what I have personally seen in the Middle East:

    Android (mostly Samsung and htc)
    iPhone
    Bb legacy*
    Windows mobile
    Bb10*

    I'm basing this solely on my travels to Dubai, Doha, Jeddah, and Kuwait over the course of 2013.

    *declining very rapidly with the introduction of bbmx and what's apps soaring popularity in the region.

    Btw:
    Lumia sales reached about 22 million units last year vs bb10's 6 million devices shipped.
    I respect what you saw and I believe you but I lived in Dammam, Jeddah, Riyadh, been to UAE a lot ( I lost count) and also lately living in Egypt, from what I saw in Saudi Arabia and UAE,
    1- Android
    2- iPhone
    3- BBOS
    4- BB10
    5- WP

    In Egypt, most of the phones I see are
    1- Samsung
    2- iPhone
    3- BBOS
    I saw about 9 people in my university holding BB10s and 1 Holding WP.

    I don't really trust any source saying anything, the source that you posted it's link above says iPhones and BlackBerry has the same market share which proves that it's not a reliable source.


    Posted via CB10
    01-23-14 10:46 AM
  21. birdman_38's Avatar
    I just think they should have released BBMx on all three platforms during the re-release. WhatsApp came on board in the very early days of BlackBerry 10 when it had near zero market share. And they operate with a staff of 30 people.

    The BlackBerry's strained resources and WP's low market share arguments are getting kind of old.
    kbz1960, JeepBB and pankaler like this.
    01-23-14 11:16 AM
  22. Decebal's Avatar
    If BBM intends to become available to the widest possible customer base, they will have to be available across all platforms. Think Facebook....

    Posted via CB10
    01-23-14 11:22 AM
  23. propeller10's Avatar
    I respect what you saw and I believe you but I lived in Dammam, Jeddah, Riyadh, been to UAE a lot ( I lost count) and also lately living in Egypt, from what I saw in Saudi Arabia and UAE,
    1- Android
    2- iPhone
    3- BBOS
    4- BB10
    5- WP

    In Egypt, most of the phones I see are
    1- Samsung
    2- iPhone
    3- BBOS
    I saw about 9 people in my university holding BB10s and 1 Holding WP.

    I don't really trust any source saying anything, the source that you posted it's link above says iPhones and BlackBerry has the same market share which proves that it's not a reliable source.


    Posted via CB10
    That's BS. This article proves you wrong: Here Are 24 Countries Where Windows Phone Outsells The iPhone (And Why It Does) - Forbes

    WP is outselling the iphone in Egypt which means it is way more popular than BB. So there you go. End of discussion.
    01-23-14 11:30 AM
  24. sleepngbear's Avatar
    Correct me if I am wrong but Chen's new strategy does not involve directly competing against platforms such as WP. Also it would be a mistake to ignore WP with Whatsapp, viber and kik being available to every platform.
    Chen's strategy is not to focus on the consume market -- there's a difference. BBRY is still very much in competition with MS on the consumer and enterprise fronts. I didn't say that it isn't a mistake to ignore WP (nor am I saying that it is) -- just offering it up as an aspect that could very easily have been part of that decision. I thought this from the moment that BBM was released for iOS and Android but not for WP. Of course no one would discuss this in public, but I've yet to see any better reasons for ignoring WP.
    01-23-14 11:31 AM
  25. sixpacker's Avatar
    Here's my twisted take on the matter. Forgive me if it's already been posed, but I'm just not up to wading through 200 posts to find it if it has.

    MS is BBRY's closest competitor in the mobile space. iOS and Android are just too far out of reach right now, and offering BBM on those platforms isn't going to change the landscape any at this point, and will likely help BBRY more than hurt in the long run. MS with WP, on the other hand, can be overtaken; and because it's still technically a horse race for #3, it is not in BBRY's best interest to to give MS anything that could potentially improve their position, no matter how small an advantage that might be. Not to discount any of the other factors that have been brought up here, because they may be playing into the equation as well.
    Ah, I knew someone would float this idea. This is the sort of thinking that will kill bbm by limiting it's adoption. BBM is now essentially in a different market to the Devices division and has to operate with a cross platform view.

    Posted via SwiftKey / htc one
    01-23-14 11:41 AM
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