07-10-15 03:12 AM
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  1. serbanescu's Avatar
    Sorry for being obtuse. Was using it as a rhetorical point. BIS wasn't/isn't in violation and neither is Google but under OP view of anti-trust they could be.
    OK, that makes sense
    07-08-15 03:15 PM
  2. dbmalloy's Avatar
    It's a silly argument the rules are what Google says they are and can change at any moment. Why do you think Google is going to let BlackBerry film flam their way into the Google play store with a crafty work around ?

    Posted via CB10
    Finally a voice of sanity.... nothing in tech is written in stone.... remember the old adage... those who make the rules can break the rules... If you think Goolge would not change rules that would make them more money then I have a great at home business opportunity where you can make $500.00 an hour.... Does not mean that I think BB will skirt what Google has said... will wait to see what is released and comment then....
    BlackQtCoder likes this.
    07-08-15 03:20 PM
  3. BlackQtCoder's Avatar
    Not true at all. A hypervisor is not an "operating system".

    If you have an actual document that constrains any other application environment being on the device, let's see it.
    This is the KEY

    Posted via CB10
    07-08-15 03:21 PM
  4. nbaliga's Avatar
    Good article on "Google’s iron grip on Android"

    From what it says, you don't have to be part of the OHA to run google apps, you just need to negotiate a license for google apps such as play store, maps etc.

    Google?s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary | Ars Technica
    PygmySurfer likes this.
    07-08-15 03:40 PM
  5. BCITMike's Avatar
    Not true at all. A hypervisor is not an "operating system".

    If you have an actual document that constrains any other application environment being on the device, let's see it.
    I'm pretty sure it is. ESXi for example. I think if its on bare metal, it's an OS.

    How much do we know about the QNX hypervisor? I recall something when it was announced, but I thought it was still in early development.

    What is your take on upgrading existing devices? OTA won't be possible and everyone would have to use autoloader and lose everything.

    Posted via CB10
    07-08-15 04:36 PM
  6. BCITMike's Avatar
    In what way does Google violate the law? Why isn't it free to license the use of its own services on its own terms? Google doesn't prevent device manufacturers from producing devices that use operating systems from the competition.
    Your last sentence is not true. Forking android would become a competitor.

    Posted via CB10
    07-08-15 04:38 PM
  7. BCITMike's Avatar
    Under the same law that makes BIS a violation back in day when everyone wanted in on Blackberry services. Even if we agree that Google is violating the law, its like the Typo keyboard if someone like BB has a problem with it they need to go to court to resolve it as 'we live in a nation of laws' .
    No, that is not a good comparison whatsoever.

    First of all, I'm not aware of anyone licensing BIS for non-BB device, so it's a non-starter.

    Posted via CB10
    07-08-15 04:43 PM
  8. BCITMike's Avatar
    You're blind so I doubt you'll see it. ITS NOT A TECHNICAL ISSUE!! If Google doesn't think it helps them it can interpret, change, modify OHA rules as it sees fit just like it did when the first dual-boot attempt was made for Windows/Android.

    Its not a legal issue either as BB hasn't tried to sue.
    Google would probably like to see Blackberry join the fold. The other OHA members would likely not appreciate the new competition.

    Does anything stop Google from licensing Play services to BlackBerry outside of being an OHA member (and pissing off existing OHA members) ?

    Posted via CB10
    07-08-15 04:52 PM
  9. BlackQtCoder's Avatar
    I'm pretty sure it is. ESXi for example. I think if its on bare metal, it's an OS.

    How much do we know about the QNX hypervisor? I recall something when it was announced, but I thought it was still in early development.

    What is your take on upgrading existing devices? OTA won't be possible and everyone would have to use autoloader and lose everything.

    Posted via CB10

    On BlackBerry Android Rumors-crackberry-image-17-.jpg
    Wrong. QNX hypervisor is not an OS. OSes lays on QNX hypervisor. Is not the same

    Posted via CB10
    07-08-15 04:53 PM
  10. tickerguy's Avatar
    I'm pretty sure it is. ESXi for example. I think if its on bare metal, it's an OS.

    How much do we know about the QNX hypervisor? I recall something when it was announced, but I thought it was still in early development.

    What is your take on upgrading existing devices? OTA won't be possible and everyone would have to use autoloader and lose everything.

    Posted via CB10
    I suspect the hypervisor is a lot further along than we think; they have figured out how to virtualize the graphics accelerator, which is one of the big problems with these systems in the general sense. It's pretty easy if you can assign the graphics engine to one guest or another but if you need it for all (as you do in this sort of application) then it gets messy; you can emulate but that's slow and the entire point of hardware graphics acceleration is not to do that. From the announcement that appeared to be the real breakthrough in terms of what they had done architecturally, and my first thought was "aha, hypervisored phone!" when I saw it.

    There's no particular reason why an OTA wouldn't work; note that the way OTA works now the entire update is loaded into flash and then executed on boot (and in fact the old one is retained in case it fails to "take" too; I've had it happen and after three consecutive crashes on restart it will roll back on its own.)

    Android apps are already in their own sandbox in terms of where they install, so the upgrade process can easily move that entire section into the newly created partition. The trick would be having enough space on the phone for the upgrade to complete, which may well be a significant barrier. I wouldn't be shocked at all if you needed 4Gb of free space on the phone for an OTA update to succeed.

    If I'm reading the specs on the chips correctly the Passport has the required instruction set at the processor level and I suspect it also has enough RAM to run this environment well. I don't think the other devices do on either account, although it MIGHT be possible to run in 2GB of memory with the Android player out of the base BB10 code, as takes a lot of system resource and it wouldn't be there. Without the instruction set though you're hosed; there's no way around that.
    BCITMike likes this.
    07-08-15 05:00 PM
  11. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I'm pretty sure it is. ESXi for example. I think if its on bare metal, it's an OS.

    How much do we know about the QNX hypervisor? I recall something when it was announced, but I thought it was still in early development.

    What is your take on upgrading existing devices? OTA won't be possible and everyone would have to use autoloader and lose everything.

    Posted via CB10
    Don't think they were going to have anything to show until later this year. To have a working version on a consumer smartphone as your first test run.... that would be pretty brave.

    It would be very cool from a tech standpoint for BlackBerry to release a phone capable of running two OSes at the same time.... But I don't see Google or any of their OHA member being willing to give BlackBerry some advantage... unless they could install their own special "none OS" software packages also.

    Too many here are looking at this only from the BlackBerry point of view and not seeing how that would affect all these other OEMs. If this were some great new way to run Android..... Google would have bought BlackBerry for $5 - $6 million and took all the credit of it.
    07-08-15 05:00 PM
  12. tickerguy's Avatar
    Google does not care about handset sales. They care about eyeballs.

    The more eyeballs (ad revenue) the better and Gapps is their code that they can make available on their terms. I have long maintained that Google screwed the pooch badly with the initial Android decisions; the code is spaghetti and Linux was a marginal choice at best, but out of what they had available at the time it made sense.

    However, the rising exploit profile on these devices is a devil they haven't been able to shove back in the bottle, and none of the other OEMs have either. BlackBerry can do that here and now without damaging the Google brand.

    Google doesn't want to buy BlackBerry; they don't want to be in the hardware and OS business. That's not their business model and never was, which is why they don't SELL Android.

    All the pieces fit here folks, and I suspect you're going to see this before the end of the year. If so then the current "business profile" as Wall Street sees it is exactly upside down. Between BES 12 particularly the cloud version (which works real well and it's SELLING) and what I believe is a surprise coming in this area things are going to get real interesting -- particularly if this shows up on the Slider and then gets backported to the Passport.
    KingOfQwerty and BCITMike like this.
    07-08-15 05:06 PM
  13. k1rkland's Avatar
    So how does all this extra complexity, simply to run Android like any number of generic handsets are already capable of doing, improve security?

    The most logical and likely configuration is stock Android with communication and security-oriented BlackBerry apps that run as they do on any Android handset. No QNX.
    PygmySurfer likes this.
    07-08-15 05:12 PM
  14. missing_K-W's Avatar
    The more I look into it. Google Play Services are owned by Google and not Android. Puts a bit of a damper on the OHA argument. What's the OHA going to say if Google and BlackBerry have their own agreement. Blackberry and Google are strategic partners after all.

    Posted via CB10
    PygmySurfer likes this.
    07-08-15 05:47 PM
  15. acovey's Avatar
    Have I wandered into an Android site by mistake? If I wanted Android I would bye one. I thought this was Crackberry a site for Blackberry users?
    07-08-15 05:47 PM
  16. Ment's Avatar
    No, that is not a good comparison whatsoever.

    First of all, I'm not aware of anyone licensing BIS for non-BB device, so it's a non-starter.

    Posted via CB10
    And they had no grounds to demand it either thats the point. Same with apps on BBOS, Blackberry could be as arbitrary as it wants as to who has access to Blackberry users and under what terms.

    Google would probably like to see Blackberry join the fold. The other OHA members would likely not appreciate the new competition.

    Does anything stop Google from licensing Play services to BlackBerry outside of being an OHA member (and pissing off existing OHA members) ?

    Posted via CB10
    Generally the things Google does within the confines of OHA are agreeable to the majority of the members. Each of them are trying to topple the other in various ways so not making special rules for one or bringing the hammer down on one who tries to circumvent the spirit of the rules gets the thumbs up. Thats why yes Google could do a side agreement outside of OHA in fact they have done so like for OnePlus but in those cases it doesn't result in a competitive advantage.
    07-08-15 06:06 PM
  17. DonHB's Avatar
    From what it says, you don't have to be part of the OHA to run google apps, you just need to negotiate a license for google apps such as play store, maps etc.
    What you have said is consistent with what I have read so far in the Android-CDD. The only mention of the OHA is its disclaimer that codecs may be costly to license even if the device maker implements their own.

    For those who want to read it, the document is here: source.android.com/compatibility/android-cdd.pdf. The source of the link is here: source.android.com/compatibility and the page provides the steps required for making devices Android compatible. Android-CDD is 'only' 62 pages. I am about half way through it.

    So far, the only obvious UI conflict is with the status bar of BB10 and nothing so far precludes BBRY implementing ART as an application on BB10 making it removable by the device owner. It also allows device makers to supply their own browser and there is no mention that it has to be implemented in Java or use the runtime. So far, it allows, but at every oportunity does not recommend, that the API's be reimplemented.

    This means that BBRY can use JNI to call the already implemented native code that BB10 uses for equivalent functionality. The implication of this is more performant Android apps on BB10 and should encourage continued investment in BB10 and it's development tools. Finally, because unlike Android, BB10 allows for apps to be written using the CPUs native instructions BB10 devices would be unique among the Android competition.

    According to the page referenced above, to qualify for a GMS license requires passing the Compatibility Test Suite. If Google refuses to license Google Mobile Services to BBRY once they pass the CTS, I would think BBRY can have its day in court. I suspect Android 5.x+ has made it possible for BBRY to support GMS on BB10 while allowing its customers to remove as much Google stuff as they like at setup or after.

    Sections 9.4 and 9.7 of the Android-CDD for Lollipop should be of particular interest to the curious:
    Alternate Execution Environments have to be an Android application. These are the unboxed device requirements. Perhaps browsers are considered execution environments, but nothing suggests that native code applications are disallowed and that alternate run-times could not be installed by device owners.

    Kernel Security Features suggest that QNX could be the underlying OS as long as its security features do not break the SELinux features that Android uses (i.e. expects to have and provides to Android 5.x apps).
    Last edited by DonHB; 07-17-15 at 12:13 AM.
    PygmySurfer and BCITMike like this.
    07-08-15 06:34 PM
  18. asherN's Avatar
    A Hypervisor, especially a Type 1 Hypervisor, is an OS. It is software that makes the underlying hardware available to applications. In the case of a Hypervisor, those applications are other OS. ESXi is a great example. While I can run Windows on bare metal, I can't run a Windows VM on bare metal any more that I can run Word on bare metal. A software layer between those and the hardware is required.. That is an OS.

    Besides, OHA rules specify that the hardware must boot directly into Android. Booting a Hypervisor, which then boots Android does not follow that rule.

    Let's not forget that BB10 without BES is not really more secure than Android or iOS. And BB i making a big deal about BES12.2 securing Android.

    Follow the bouncing ball.
    1) BB10 has no eco-system and is effectively dead.
    2) BB has always pushed end-to-end security by using their devices along with BES
    3) BB is making a big deal of BES12.2 being able to secure Android for the Enterprise
    4) Any decent MDM can lock out rooted devices.
    5) Why would BB not switch to Android and point to BES12.2 as the way to fully secure Android in the Enterprise?
    Dunt Dunt Dunt and k1rkland like this.
    07-09-15 12:26 AM
  19. BCITMike's Avatar
    I suspect the hypervisor is a lot further along than we think; they have figured out how to virtualize the graphics accelerator, which is one of the big problems with these systems in the general sense. It's pretty easy if you can assign the graphics engine to one guest or another but if you need it for all (as you do in this sort of application) then it gets messy; you can emulate but that's slow and the entire point of hardware graphics acceleration is not to do that. From the announcement that appeared to be the real breakthrough in terms of what they had done architecturally, and my first thought was "aha, hypervisored phone!" when I saw it.

    There's no particular reason why an OTA wouldn't work; note that the way OTA works now the entire update is loaded into flash and then executed on boot (and in fact the old one is retained in case it fails to "take" too; I've had it happen and after three consecutive crashes on restart it will roll back on its own.)

    Android apps are already in their own sandbox in terms of where they install, so the upgrade process can easily move that entire section into the newly created partition. The trick would be having enough space on the phone for the upgrade to complete, which may well be a significant barrier. I wouldn't be shocked at all if you needed 4Gb of free space on the phone for an OTA update to succeed.

    If I'm reading the specs on the chips correctly the Passport has the required instruction set at the processor level and I suspect it also has enough RAM to run this environment well. I don't think the other devices do on either account, although it MIGHT be possible to run in 2GB of memory with the Android player out of the base BB10 code, as takes a lot of system resource and it wouldn't be there. Without the instruction set though you're hosed; there's no way around that.
    That's exactly why I'm thinking OTA is no go on anything except an out-of-box unit, and that wouldn't be worth the effort. It would take so long to shuffle around data, it would pose too much of a risk that something would interrupt it and go wrong. I could see how it could be done using Link and a full backup for faster and more reliable process. Perhaps if the phones were 32GB onboard and not 16GB, unfortunately.

    Do you know the current flash partition layout? The QNX would have to replace the BB10 partition and would have to have a recovery mode available if interrupted. You certainly wouldn't partition the QNX partition into the exact same size as the BB10 partition or there would be tons of waste.
    07-09-15 02:41 AM
  20. BCITMike's Avatar
    Not true at all. A hypervisor is not an "operating system".

    If you have an actual document that constrains any other application environment being on the device, let's see it.
    Is there a hard definition of what falls into operating system? I haven't found anything to suggest a type 1 hypervisor is not itself an OS. In school, they even referred to our "Hello world!" programs as the operating system... so I think the definition is fairly loose.

    ESXi seems to be an operating system from all I can see.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMware_ESX

    Service console[edit]
    In ESX (and not ESXi), the Service Console is a vestigial general purpose operating system most significantly used as bootstrap for the VMware kernel, vmkernel, and secondarily used as a management interface. Both of these Console Operating System functions are being deprecated from version 5.0, as VMware migrates exclusively to the ESXi model, current version being ESXi.[15] The Service Console, for all intents and purposes, is the operating system used to interact with VMware ESX and the virtual machines that run on the server.
    Sounds like this is getting into lawyer speak would have to see the definition used in the contracts... BlackBerry and QNX are not referring to it as an OS, just Hypervisor 1.

    QNX Hypervisor

    Release 1.0 of the QNX Hypervisor supports the QNX Neutrino OS 6.6 and 6.5, Linux and Android. OS support will be expanded in future releases. Contact your QNX Sales Representative for the latest list of supported OSs.
    Anyone in the industry with an SDK and involved in anything like this? I imagine it's $100k+ to even get a kit. Pretty cool stuff.
    07-09-15 03:04 AM
  21. BCITMike's Avatar
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Wrong. QNX hypervisor is not an OS. OSes lays on QNX hypervisor. Is not the same

    Posted via CB10
    That didn't clear anything up other than stating the obvious. The question is what constitutes an "operating system"? A kernel with scheduling and applications? Could be a specific or loose definition is what I'm getting at. Google (though I think they should have used citation!) says:

    operating system
    noun
    the software that supports a computer's basic functions, such as scheduling tasks, executing applications, and controlling peripherals.
    That's exactly what a Hypervisor does, no?
    07-09-15 03:08 AM
  22. kvndoom's Avatar
    Until BlackBerry itself issues a concrete yea or nay, it's all up in the air.

    Everybody's "proof" one way or another is just speculation. The people who know definitively ain't talking.

    Posted from BlackBerry Classic, Verizon, no camera, 10.3.2.2205
    Blacklatino and Xaiux like this.
    07-09-15 06:44 AM
  23. tickerguy's Avatar
    That's exactly why I'm thinking OTA is no go on anything except an out-of-box unit, and that wouldn't be worth the effort. It would take so long to shuffle around data, it would pose too much of a risk that something would interrupt it and go wrong. I could see how it could be done using Link and a full backup for faster and more reliable process. Perhaps if the phones were 32GB onboard and not 16GB, unfortunately.

    Do you know the current flash partition layout? The QNX would have to replace the BB10 partition and would have to have a recovery mode available if interrupted. You certainly wouldn't partition the QNX partition into the exact same size as the BB10 partition or there would be tons of waste.
    Not in enough detail, but I don't believe an OTA update is impossible by any means. The total size would not be all that much larger than what is loaded now on a full update as the Android player gets removed from the BB10 side, and the hypervisor itself is quite small. Remember that the Passport has 32Gb in it; mine is pretty "in use" in terms of a cadre of apps and their data along with my usual "stuff" so there certainly is enough room for it to be done OTA on these devices. It gets dicier on the Z10/Z30 class devices, or the Classic -- but there may be a hard limitation preventing this from working on those devices in the CPU instruction set.
    07-09-15 08:35 AM
  24. yhamaie's Avatar
    Yellow-greenBerry phones may be badge-engineered handsets ( like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...eered_vehicles ), I suppose.

    BlackBerry to roll out Android-based smartphones in 2H15, say sources

    Daniel Shen, Taipei; Steve Shen, DIGITIMES [Thursday 9 July 2015]

    BlackBerry reportedly plans to roll out multiple models of Android-based smartphones in the second half of 2015, with Taiwan-based handset ODMs, including Foxconn Electronics, Compal Electronics and Wistron serving as production partners, according to sources at Taiwan's handset supply chain.

    While running on Android OS, the new BlackBerry smartphones will also integrate some software functions of BlackBerry OS and application services such as BES12, BBM and BlackBerry Blend, said the sources.

    To enhance the competitiveness of its hardware products, BlackBerry has expanded the list of its hardware partners to include Compal Electronics and Wistron in addition to the previous partner Foxconn, the sources added.

    The roll-out of Android-based BlackBerry phones is unlikely to result in losses at BlackBerry since these Taiwan-based ODMs will be responsible for R&D, marketing and channel distribution expenses, indicated the sources.

    Since BlackBerry still enjoys a high brand image in a number of markets, the BlackBerry-ODM partnerships might be able to ramp up overall shipments of BlackBerry phones and therefore boosting the value of BlackBerry's hardware business unit, commented the sources.
    Last edited by yhamaie; 07-10-15 at 04:06 AM.
    07-10-15 03:12 AM
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