04-05-14 01:20 PM
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  1. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    You are adding a possible failure point (BIS outages). You are adding delay because everything has to be proxied through the NOC. You are adding a possible congestion point depending on how much bandwidth they have to the carrier, and how much they have from that NOC to the Internet, and if either is over saturated then performance severely suffers.

    Of course BIS will work over LTE, but it can slow it down and will with 100% certainty add delay to any transaction using the NOC.

    Posted via CB10
    Doesn't matter, it's the reason I have up 3G, front and read cameras, gps, Tom Tom navigation and so on, I gave all that up for the famous BB push email on a basic 2g only 8320. It was the best then, it's still the best now. Since then, 2008, I can't remember more then 5-6 outages.

    In meantime more people are having the BB10 email deletion bug.


    #believeinfilm
    03-30-14 03:35 PM
  2. lnichols's Avatar
    Doesn't matter, it's the reason I have up 3G, front and read cameras, gps, Tom Tom navigation and so on, I gave all that up for the famous BB push email on a basic 2g only 8320. It was the best then, it's still the best now. Since then, 2008, I can't remember more then 5-6 outages.

    In meantime more people are having the BB10 email deletion bug.


    #believeinfilm
    Doesn't matter to you! Completely matters to me!

    Posted via CB10
    03-30-14 04:37 PM
  3. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Doesn't matter to you! Completely matters to me!

    Posted via CB10
    Good for you, but don't tell others what should matter to them. Every choice we make is a compromise, for some it swings one way, for some te other way.


    #believeinfilm
    03-30-14 04:40 PM
  4. lnichols's Avatar
    Good for you, but don't tell others what should matter to them. Every choice we make is a compromise, for some it swings one way, for some te other way.


    #believeinfilm
    Did I say it shouldn't matter to you? No I did not. What I stated is that BIS will degrade performance of any 3G or 4G connectivity compare to direct connections to resources, and that it does reduce the reliability/availability of the end-to-end solution.

    Posted via CB10
    johnnyuk and extisis like this.
    03-30-14 04:57 PM
  5. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Did I say it shouldn't matter to you? No I did not. What I stated is that BIS will degrade performance of any 3G or 4G connectivity compare to direct connections to resources, and that it does reduce the reliability/availability of the end-to-end solution.

    Posted via CB10
    It wouldn't, because not every connection has to go through the NOC, anything data intensive could go straight through the carrier network, just like with BBOS. Compression where needed, speed where needed.

    YouTube never went through the NOC. (Unless you bridged to a PB and played it from it)


    #believeinfilm
    03-30-14 05:14 PM
  6. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the new OS or BES creates a "push" like your suggesting....In fact it's more attuned to your example is it not?
    That's technically correct; it's the ActiveSync protocol on mail servers that provides push capabilities. This is a Microsoft creation that they've licensed out. Anyway, all modern smartphones support ActiveSync (though not all email APPS support it), and certainly not ever mail server in the world uses it, but most major cloud email services and most modern business email servers CAN support it if the admit turns it on, and it becomes more and more common every day.

    So, all 4 big smartphone OSs are potentially on even ground as far as push email goes - it really comes down to the individual mail server/service and the mail app used on the phone.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    03-31-14 01:24 AM
  7. RubberChicken76's Avatar

    Eventually, they need to cut their losses and move on or just let BB10 drag them into the grave.
    What are you proposing they do? Quit making hardware at all and become a software/mdm company with like 600 employees? Go android amidst a sea of undifferentiated android phones where most lose money? Get Microsoft to pay them like Nokia to ship with Windows Phone?

    Close the doors entirely and give up?


    Posted via CB10
    04-01-14 09:01 PM
  8. Raddin's Avatar
    What are you proposing they do? Quit making hardware at all and become a software/mdm company with like 600 employees? Go android amidst a sea of undifferentiated android phones where most lose money? Get Microsoft to pay them like Nokia to ship with Windows Phone?

    Close the doors entirely and give up?


    Posted via CB10
    I think they should kill off BlackBerry 10 and make devices that run Android with a BlackBerry skin for consumers. While at the same time they could keep OS7 going for consumers in emerging markets, corporations and those that want the best security.

    They would have been better off going that route to begin with instead of creating BlackBerry 10, but it is too late to abort that mistake.

    I'm sure I will hear about how bad Android makers are doing and how it would be a huge mistake for BlackBerry to make devices that run Android. So before we even get to that point, I challenge anyone here to name a single Android manufacture that has lost billions of dollars by adapting Android. Can anyone do that? We already know that BlackBerry has lost billions by creating BB10.

    Also, can anyone here name a single Android manufacture that doesn't outsell BlackBerry 10 each quarter? I can't.

    Folks have had the chance to buy BlackBerry 10 devices for over a year now, and for whatever reason, they still choose OS7 devices at a rate of 2 to 1. Seems to me that going Android couldn't possible be as bad as continuing to make BlackBerry 10 devices.
    04-01-14 10:14 PM
  9. lnichols's Avatar
    I think they should kill off BlackBerry 10 and make devices that run Android with a BlackBerry skin for consumers. While at the same time they could keep OS7 going for consumers in emerging markets, corporations and those that want the best security.

    They would have been better off going that route to begin with instead of creating BlackBerry 10, but it is too late to abort that mistake.

    I'm sure I will hear about how bad Android makers are doing and how it would be a huge mistake for BlackBerry to make devices that run Android. So before we even get to that point, I challenge anyone here to name a single Android manufacture that has lost billions of dollars by adapting Android. Can anyone do that? We already know that BlackBerry has lost billions by creating BB10.

    Also, can anyone here name a single Android manufacture that doesn't outsell BlackBerry 10 each quarter? I can't.

    Folks have had the chance to buy BlackBerry 10 devices for over a year now, and for whatever reason, they still choose OS7 devices at a rate of 2 to 1. Seems to me that going Android couldn't possible be as bad as continuing to make BlackBerry 10 devices.
    Android would be a nightmare to FIPS certify. Any changes made to the OS would force recertification due to the monolithic kernel. Without a breakdown of where devices are being sold and by type, you can't make a blanket statement like this on the sales. Developed markets might be selling 2 to 1 BB10.

    Posted via CB10
    04-02-14 11:23 AM
  10. Raddin's Avatar
    Android would be a nightmare to FIPS certify...... snip

    Posted via CB10
    What part of "Keep OS7 going" did you not catch? Everyone who cares about security would still have the popular BlackBerry OS to use.

    The skinned Android devices could be for all those people who don't have jobs with the CIA and dont care about security. You know, the vast majority of humans. Honestly, who cares about FIPS certification? Probably not the millions of people who buy Android devices each day.
    04-02-14 01:02 PM
  11. aniym's Avatar
    What part of "Keep OS7 going" did you not catch? Everyone who cares about security would still have the popular BlackBerry OS to use.

    The skinned Android devices could be for all those people who don't have jobs with the CIA and dont care about security. You know, the vast majority of humans. Honestly, who cares about FIPS certification? Probably not the millions of people who buy Android devices each day.
    The whole "BB's unparalleled security will save the company" canard appears every time someone dares to point out that BBOS development is a money sink that has cost the company billions, money it will likely never make back.

    If Blackberry sold one BB10 device to every single member of the Chinese PLA, The US Army+Navy+Air Force, and the armed forces of India and Pakistan, it would still come out to less than 6 million units. If you want a frame of reference, "failing" Android OEMs like Sony sold 19.6 million Xperia smartphones in the first six months of 2013.
    johnnyuk likes this.
    04-02-14 02:18 PM
  12. lnichols's Avatar
    What part of "Keep OS7 going" did you not catch? Everyone who cares about security would still have the popular BlackBerry OS to use.

    The skinned Android devices could be for all those people who don't have jobs with the CIA and dont care about security. You know, the vast majority of humans. Honestly, who cares about FIPS certification? Probably not the millions of people who buy Android devices each day.
    BBOS was no better to certify. Every device must be tested. Monolithic type kernel too. The way BB10 is engineered for with the micro kernel makes certification much easier and cheaper, and the certification covers a wide range of devices without each device having to be physically tested.

    Why skin Android to do what BB10 can do now? We have Android apps. Also their would still be the issue of no advertising and no one really knows that Bb10 is much different from BBOS and can do a lit more, so how are they going to know a line is an Android based or care if made. Problem is the brand, no the BB10 OS at the moment.

    Posted via CB10
    04-03-14 06:11 AM
  13. Raddin's Avatar
    BBOS was no better to certify. Every device must be tested. Monolithic type kernel too. The way BB10 is engineered for with the micro kernel makes certification much easier and cheaper, and the certification covers a wide range of devices without each device having to be physically tested.

    Why skin Android to do what BB10 can do now? We have Android apps. Also their would still be the issue of no advertising and no one really knows that Bb10 is much different from BBOS and can do a lit more, so how are they going to know a line is an Android based or care if made. Problem is the brand, no the BB10 OS at the moment.

    Posted via CB10
    Think of how much advertising a few billions would of bought.

    BlackBerry could have brought over the Hub and the Virtual keyboard from BlackBerry 10, made a few other changes to Android and been done. There is no way skinning Android would have cost as much time and money as creating BB10 has so far.

    Their situation could have been much better off right now if they hadn't been so cocky to believe they could do it on their own. People are already invested in platforms that they like and the new smartphone adapters just go with what everyone they know has.

    If what you say is correct and BB10 is such a massive failure because of the brand, well they might as well give up now and shut er down.
    04-03-14 01:22 PM
  14. johnnyuk's Avatar
    BlackBerry could have brought over the Hub and the Virtual keyboard from BlackBerry 10, made a few other changes to Android and been done. There is no way skinning Android would have cost as much time and money as creating BB10 has so far.
    BlackBerry could not simply have just skinned Android like everybody else has done and continue to be BlackBerry. They would be another company with a different agenda entirely if that was their mobile device OS and may as well rename themselves JustAnotherFailingAndroidPusher.

    BlackBerry's DNA is Enterprise Security. It had success in the consumer market by accident rather than by design and didn't know what to do with it or how to keep it and certainly couldn't fathom that the average consumer doesn't care at all about security on a mobile device, certainly not Enterprise level security anyway.

    There is no way in BlackBerry's Earth that they could simply skin the full Android OS, with all its inherent security vulnerabilities due to its "open source, root me and change any bit of me you like to homebrew code" approach and continue to have any presence at all in Enterprise and certainly any credibility whatsoever in protecting the highest of sensitive data in Government and Regulated industries.

    That's why the Android OS Google makes for consumers is having such a hard time getting in to work places, why Samsung are ploughing millions in to Samsung Knox to shore up the holes (and are still not succeeding to) and why BlackBerry and other MDM vendors are trying to push Enterprises who want to use Android devices down containerised MDM solutions like BES10's Secure Workspace, where work data and personal data never meet. You can't build a house on foundations with huge holes in and expect it to stand up safely. We don't drink coffee out of cups with big holes in the bottom and then wonder why our drink leaked out all over the place. We don't lock all our windows at home when we go out but leave our front doors wide open.

    BlackBerry have always traded and continues to try to trade on its security credentials, it even still tries to with consumers. The only way Android as an Operating System could have been an option for the next generation of devices after legacy BBOS back in 2010 would have been as a secure Android fork with all of the open aspects closed. That means a locked and encrypted unrootable bootloader just like PlayBook and BB10, an OS you can not replace yourself that will only run BlackBerry signed executable code. From an ecosystem point of view it would be an Android living in an even more walled garden than an Amazon Kindle device and no way out of that walled garden, the antithesis of what Android is all about.

    I'm not saying that's good or bad, just what BlackBerry would have to have done to differentiate themselves from every other Android pusher and protect their security credentials with Android as their OS. The point is it would have required and still would require huge resources and a lot of money to fork Android off in a bullet proof secure way and keep on developing the fork as Google develop their open line of Android.

    A secure Android fork is what both BlackPhone and Boeing are working on and attempting to offer, let's see if they have any success. If they have more success than BlackBerry has with BB10 in the long run then it will prove that they should have gone down that route long ago.

    In fairness back in 2010 Android didn't look like ever being the serious player in the mobile space that it is today. All eyes were on Apple but Google developed Android so quickly and with it being available to pretty much any device manufacturer it snook in and stole the consumer show.

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.2141 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1
    Last edited by johnnyuk; 04-03-14 at 03:12 PM.
    04-03-14 03:01 PM
  15. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Didn't BES FIPS just get extended to android and iOS recently?


    #believeinfilm
    04-03-14 03:20 PM
  16. Raddin's Avatar
    Like I said, keep OS7 going for those few people out there that actually care about security. They already have 2 platforms going right now. The only difference is one of the platforms earns money, while the other one burns it at an incredible rate.

    BlackBerry 10 is secure. It has great security. But that doesn't matter to the overwhelming vast majority of human beings on this planet. Maybe in some other galaxy, security matters, but here it obviously doesn't. Being secure hasn't prevented BB10 from being the huge commercial failure that it is. Meanwhile, even practically unheard of Android manufactures, such as Fuhu outsell BlackBerry 10 devices quarter after quarter after quarter with so called insecure Android devices.

    This notion that BlackBerry needs to make Android secure in order to sell devices that run it just doesn't make any sense.

    Is BlackBerry forced now to make only secure devices for the rest of their existence? Are they forced to try their hardest to scrap up a few million device sales from now on, just because they have to make secure devices that a tiny percentage of people want or need? Why is it impossible for them to sell secure OS7 devices and skinned Android devices meant for consumers?

    Companies can and do change and obviously selling just "security" isn't enough to keep BlackBerry afloat any more.
    04-03-14 03:23 PM
  17. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    BlackBerry 10 is secure. It has great security.
    I'll go you one further: BB10 is NOT secure, at least, not at the consumer level. BB10 doesn't become secure (and even then, only BBM/email/possibly corporate apps) until it's connected to BES. A non-BES BB10 phone isn't more secure than iOS or Android in any significant way.

    Plus, is not BES a product that creates a secure container on iOS and Android? Is not BB touting this to potential BES customers? If this is true, then Android is good enough for enterprise use, and if it's not true, then BB is lying to their BES customers. So, which is it?

    No doubt, BB10 allows BES to better manage the phone with finer controls than other phones, which IS a BB advantage with BB10, but again, this does exactly zero for consumers using BB10. Plus, iOS added most of that to iOS over the last two iOS versions, WinPhone is adding a bunch of hooks with the 8.1 release, and Google is doing significant work in this area for the next version of Android. BB10's advantages, such as they are, are quickly being subsumed by the competition.
    04-03-14 03:37 PM
  18. johnnyuk's Avatar
    Is BlackBerry forced now to make only secure devices for the rest of their existence?
    Of course not, but like I said BlackBerry doing that have to become or spin off another company entirely to disassociate themselves from 'security' and 'work phones', including a total name change and rebranding.

    Why? Anyone, any company, any organisation, who saw the BlackBerry name and logo on a BlackBerry made phone and took that to mean it had security credentials worth more than spit would be bitterly let down very, very quickly. And the reputation damage would spread and kill what's left of its Enterprise foothold. Keep the BlackBerry name for whatever 'secure' solution they are doing (and that should in no way whatsoever be the dead end BBOS) but for the love of God do not put the BlackBerry name on plain wide open Android devices.

    Then there's the problem of how does this new spin off DroidPusher Ltd differentiate themselves selling plain wide open Android just like Samsung, HTC, Sony, Motorola, N.E. Other, A.N. Other Android Pusher? Only Samsung are making good money out of Android, the rest are fighting over scraps and taking turns to turn a tiny profit, the rest of the time they make a loss. That's the bear pit that DroidPusher would be chucked in to along with all the other also rans.

    A great way to differentiate would have been Secure Android from BlackBerry, a name you can trust for security and privacy. Enterprise at least would have bought in to that big time and would also make a more viable BYOD platform than BB10 is currently with its 'app gap' issues.

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.2141 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1
    Last edited by johnnyuk; 04-03-14 at 07:33 PM.
    04-03-14 03:46 PM
  19. lnichols's Avatar
    Didn't BES FIPS just get extended to android and iOS recently?


    #believeinfilm
    The secure container from BES to both is now FIPS approved. It is fully approved for iPhone5 running iOS 6, iPad3 running iOS5, and Samsung GS3 running Android 4.1. There is additional guidance that says it should also be aporoves for some other devices, but have the caveat that no claim can be made to the operation in those other environments. So again very narrow and specific, and BBOS suffers the same fate. You can look all this up online. Look at the BB10/PlayBook approval and the security docs, and then look at iPhone, Android, BBOS, secure container, and you can see for yourself how flexible the BB10 approval is compared to every other system including BBOS.

    Posted via CB10
    04-03-14 04:54 PM
  20. johnnyuk's Avatar
    I'll go you one further: BB10 is NOT secure, at least, not at the consumer level. BB10 doesn't become secure (and even then, only BBM/email/possibly corporate apps) until it's connected to BES. A non-BES BB10 phone isn't more secure than iOS or Android in any significant way.
    Not being jail-breakable or rootable is about the only security advantage without BES10 activation.

    Plus, is not BES a product that creates a secure container on iOS and Android? Is not BB touting this to potential BES customers? If this is true, then Android is good enough for enterprise use, and if it's not true, then BB is lying to their BES customers. So, which is it?
    Android+a container solution such as Secure Work Space in BES10 can make the things inside the container secure on an Android device, but not the underlying Android OS itself. Do anything outside of the container, it's vulnerable to security exploits.

    BB10's advantages, such as they are, are quickly being subsumed by the competition.
    Fear not, BES12 will be a "hole n'other level" to coin an illiterate phrase.


    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.2141 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1
    04-03-14 05:08 PM
  21. lnichols's Avatar
    I'll go you one further: BB10 is NOT secure, at least, not at the consumer level. BB10 doesn't become secure (and even then, only BBM/email/possibly corporate apps) until it's connected to BES. A non-BES BB10 phone isn't more secure than iOS or Android in any significant way.
    Incorrect. The cryptographic kernel is FIPS approved on the device independently of the BES. The approved cryptographic kernel is in every BB10 device sold. When you encrypt the device and/or memory card it is using this approved kernel.

    The BES is independently approved too. None of that is dependent on the phone.

    When the two communicate with each other, the encrypted tunnel is also FIPS by both being approved and using approved modules to encrypt that data.

    I work on FIPS VPN equipment. Each piece is approved. When I have two encryptors that are approved and talking with each other with the approved algorithms then that is an approved solution. When a FIPS approved VPN client is used for a PC to remote in through the FIPS encryptor it is an approved solution and both are approved independently and not as a package.

    If someone were to right a P2P file sharing software that used the BB10 crypto kernel to encrypt the data and send to another BB10 device and decrypt the data with the kernel then it is an approved solution with no BES involved at all.

    If the horrible VPN CLIENT built into the Bb10 devices could communicate with a FIOS approved VPN concentration device, then that solution is FIPS approved without a BES.

    Posted via CB10
    johnnyuk likes this.
    04-03-14 05:11 PM
  22. johnnyuk's Avatar
    Incorrect. The cryptographic kernel is FIPS approved on the device independently of the BES. The approved cryptographic kernel is in every BB10 device sold. When you encrypt the device and/or memory card it is using this approved kernel.
    Bah FIPS shmips, you know they're in cahoots with the NSA anyway. just kidding.

    There are different definitions for what can be considered 'secure' or 'secure enough' for every use case. For a consumer use case, as in an iOS or Android device, with non-sensistive data the device's own encryption strength is fine. For a regulated work place use case with sensitive data it is absolutely not fine. Horses for courses.

    If the horrible VPN CLIENT built into the Bb10 devices could communicate with a FIOS approved VPN concentration device, then that solution is FIPS approved without a BES.
    That's probably why BlackBerry are keeping the VPN client in BB10 horrible.

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.2141 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1
    Last edited by johnnyuk; 04-04-14 at 08:05 PM.
    04-03-14 05:37 PM
  23. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Incorrect. The cryptographic kernel is FIPS approved on the device independently of the BES. The approved cryptographic kernel is in every BB10 device sold. When you encrypt the device and/or memory card it is using this approved kernel.

    -snip-
    And how is any of that a selling point for a non-BES, consumer phone?

    "Oh, sure, I may not have a tablet or smartwatch or fitness band, and I might not be able to run my favorite apps, or have to use 3rd party versions that can be broken at any time, but, darn it, I've got a cryptographic kernel, and so clearly this is the best phone for me!" - said no one ever.

    No one is arguing that BES-connected phones are the most secure phones generally available, but that means NOTHING to the average consumer, and, honestly, only means anything to a handful of hardcore BB fans. If that weren't true, then why would Android be selling more than 100 times as many phones per quarter as BB sells BB10? Not to mention iOS selling 20 times as many, and WinPhone selling 3 times as many.
    johnnyuk likes this.
    04-03-14 07:18 PM
  24. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    There are different definitions for what can considered 'secure' or 'secure enough' for every use case.
    At this point, for most needs, they're probably all "good enough"

    T was probably just typing quickly when saying "BlackBerry 10 is not secure ". It is, but it's probably not got competitive advantages without the BES for the heavy regulated scenarios.

    I'm not concerned about it being hacked. Not concerned about my iPhone being hacked either


    Posted via CB10
    04-03-14 09:03 PM
  25. AthenaSmith's Avatar
    I'd buy a new Bold 9900 from the new production run as a secondary phone, and keep my Q10 as my primary. I really loved my 9900 and the only reason I had to change it was because it was 3 years old and a few keys were giving out and malfunctioning already.

    Posted via CB10
    04-03-14 09:49 PM
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