10-31-14 09:02 PM
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  1. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Unless you use Google wallet. If you use Google Wallet to make 2 purchase with Chase and 3 with another card, then Google does see all 5 transactions through their ghost card. This is not the case with Apple Pay.
    Google wallet still does not see what you have purchased. They don't get the SKU level of information. It's basically just it's own credit card, though virtual.

    And I'm not seeing how Apple Pay doesn't see the same. Apple Pay has to parse the data to initiate the transaction. That parsed data gives them the same information.


    Penned via Tapatalk
    Last edited by DenverRalphy; 10-27-14 at 01:51 PM.
    10-27-14 01:37 PM
  2. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Mobile payments are no good for large transactions so you are going to have to pull out your credit card sometimes, so mobile app payment isn't any more efficient than chip and pin.
    How are mobile payments no good for large transactions? If I were purchasing a vehicle, and the local dealer had a tap to pay system, you betcha I'd use Google Wallet and select the bank I'm withdrawing the money from to be the down payment.


    Penned via Tapatalk
    10-27-14 01:45 PM
  3. tinochiko's Avatar
    How are mobile payments no good for large transactions? If I were purchasing a vehicle, and the local dealer had a tap to pay system, you betcha I'd use Google Wallet and select the bank I'm withdrawing the money from to be the down payment.


    Penned via Tapatalk
    I'm 99% sure there's a limit on mobile payments, in the UK, even touch to pay cards tend to have a 20 limit.. one so that noone can borrow your card and cause a lot of damage, but two because banks only process these payments at midnight.. so they act like a mini overdraft becyase technically if your balance was 1 you could tap up to 20 and your balance would only realise it was in minus the next day..

    Similar restrictions are likely to apply here, especially if nothing more than tapping your phone on the reader is required to make the payment..

    Posted from my PeePee!
    10-27-14 01:53 PM
  4. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    I'm 99% sure there's a limit on mobile payments, in the UK, even touch to pay cards tend to have a 20 limit.. one so that noone can borrow your card and cause a lot of damage, but two because banks only process these payments at midnight.. so they act like a mini overdraft becyase technically if your balance was 1 you could tap up to 20 and your balance would only realise it was in minus the next day..

    Similar restrictions are likely to apply here, especially if nothing more than tapping your phone on the reader is required to make the payment..

    Posted from my PeePee!
    When you use tap 2 pay, it works exactly as if you Swiped the card. Payments are typically "finalized" after midnight, but those charges are categorized as Pending. Pending transactions are applied to your available balance immediately. If I have $100 in funds, run a card for $35, even though it's not batched/finalized until after midnight (whenever the retailer gets around to it), that $35 is already deducted from my available funds.

    In fact, in the case of restaurants/bars/etc.. or any merchant that may also receive tips, then the bank card-issuer will add 20% to the authorization. So that $35 bar tab will actually pre authorize your account for $42.


    Penned via Tapatalk
    10-27-14 02:11 PM
  5. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    How are mobile payments no good for large transactions? If I were purchasing a vehicle, and the local dealer had a tap to pay system, you betcha I'd use Google Wallet and select the bank I'm withdrawing the money from to be the down payment.
    Penned via Tapatalk
    Because of security concerns, mobile apps ot cards that are contactless (NFC) are considered "card not present". You are not signing or using a PIN to verify that you are the card owner. So there is a limit on the contactless transaction.
    10-27-14 03:11 PM
  6. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Because of security concerns, mobile apps ot cards that are contactless (NFC) are considered "card not present". You are not signing or using a PIN to verify that you are the card owner. So there is a limit on the contactless transaction.
    Incorrect. You ARE using a PIN. The whole point of the change is to convert to a pin system. As well, mobile payments adds a tokenization system into the mix. Much more secure than the plastic and signature system.

    Penned via Tapatalk
    10-27-14 03:21 PM
  7. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Accidental dupe.
    10-27-14 03:22 PM
  8. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    Incorrect. You ARE using a PIN. The whole point of the change is to convert to a pin system. As well, mobile payments adds a tokenization system into the mix. Much more secure than the plastic and signature system.

    Penned via Tapatalk
    You are not using the EMV PIN which is secure chip card to processor.
    10-27-14 03:47 PM
  9. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    You are not using the EMV PIN which is secure chip card to processor.
    Actually, yes I am. Believe it or not, there are aspects of NA that are adopting it. That's pretty much the whole point of this thread. EMV being adopted in the US. Unfortunately merchants in the US are trying hard to circumvent the change. Well, not exactly trying to circumvent, but more try to manipulate to their own ends. Which really pisses me off.

    IMHO... What needs to happen is a definitive "legal tender" measure for digital transactions. In the US (and most other countries), Legal Tender cannot be denied as payment. There needs to be similar enforcement on credit/digital payments.

    Penned via Tapatalk
    10-27-14 03:57 PM
  10. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    Actually, yes I am. Believe it or not, there are aspects of NA that are adopting it. That's pretty much the whole point of this thread. EMV being adopted in the US. Unfortunately merchants in the US are trying hard to circumvent the change. Well, not exactly trying to circumvent, but more try to manipulate to their own ends. Which really pisses me off.
    Penned via Tapatalk
    The US implementation of EMV is chip and sign, not chip and pin. The credit cards want to continue to rake in billions because chip and sign allows third parties to handle the transaction, chip and sign can only be processed by VISA and Mastercard. VISA and Mastercard working with Apple don't want to touch their cash cow.

    If the US wanted to have a secure card processing system, they would choose EMV chip and pin. If they did that, then merchants would be able to get cheaper rates for card processing from companies other than VISA and Mastercard.

    As for NA, only the US isn't chip and pin.
    10-27-14 04:02 PM
  11. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    The US implementation of EMV is chip and sign, not chip and pin. The credit cards want to continue to rake in billions because chip and sign allows third parties to handle the transaction, chip and sign can only be processed by VISA and Mastercard. VISA and Mastercard working with Apple don't want to touch their cash cow.

    If the US wanted to have a secure card processing system, they would choose EMV chip and pin. If they did that, then merchants would be able to get cheaper rates for card processing from companies other than VISA and Mastercard.
    More accurately.. What you're describing is what the US has practiced "so far". It's about to change drastically.

    It's going to change. Well more accurately, it's "supposed" to change. It's the corporate dominance that's going to delay it as long as possible.

    Penned via Tapatalk
    10-27-14 04:08 PM
  12. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    More accurately.. What you're describing is what the US has practiced "so far". It's about to change drastically.

    It's going to change. Well more accurately, it's "supposed" to change. It's the corporate dominance that's going to delay it as long as possible.

    Penned via Tapatalk
    No. What I am describing is what will be started to roll out in Oct 2015.
    10-27-14 04:11 PM
  13. tchocky77's Avatar
    Because of security concerns, mobile apps ot cards that are contactless (NFC) are considered "card not present". You are not signing or using a PIN to verify that you are the card owner. So there is a limit on the contactless transaction.
    I think that, in Apple's case, the difference is their implementation of TouchID into the transaction.
    10-27-14 06:48 PM
  14. BanffMoose's Avatar
    Under MC and Visa. If you buy something at CVS, the folks at Walmart don't see that. With MCX, the consortium sees every purchase you make at all 30+ partners. That is a huge difference.

    And of course with CurrentC MCX will have direct access to your checking or savings account.
    It's the aggregation across multiple cards and/or multiple merchants that is the danger because it allows you to create a much more complete picture of what a user is doing. It's that aggregation of SKU level data across merchants or trans data across cards that is of unprecedented value for MCX or Google because it allows that more complete picture of everything the customer does.

    Thanks. You confirmed what I was afraid of. I'll stay away from Google Wallet and CurrentC or any other payment system where companies other than the one I'm dealing with gets actual SKU information.
    10-27-14 07:11 PM
  15. Prem WatsApp's Avatar
    Not sure whether this has been posted earlier or elsewhere, here's some interesting info about security, and how scammers / skimmers work. I'm sure Apple Pay and others are already on their list...

    I reckon it's a good read.

    http://krebsonsecurity.com/2014/06/p...-carding-shop/

    http://krebsonsecurity.com/all-about-skimmers/

    http://krebsonsecurity.com/2013/12/s...-sale-skimmer/

    Those POS skimmers take your info when you type in the PIN. They could also be fake, but still print out a receipt...


    Apple Pay will hurt BBRY [opinion]-mcdumpalsjoined.png


    Have fun (but don't listen to the clown...)
    :-)

    ? ? ? Passposted via CB Chen ? ? ?
    10-27-14 07:47 PM
  16. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    Not sure whether this has been posted earlier or elsewhere, here's some interesting info about security, and how scammers / skimmers work. I'm sure Apple Pay and others are already on their list...

    I reckon it's a good read.

    Peek Inside a Professional Carding Shop ? Krebs on Security

    All About Skimmers ? Krebs on Security

    Simple But Effective Point-of-Sale Skimmer ? Krebs on Security

    Those POS skimmers take your info when you type in the PIN. They could also be fake, but still print out a receipt...


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Have fun (but don't listen to the clown...)
    :-)

    ? ? ? Passposted via CB Chen ? ? ?
    You are forgetting one thing. With EMV chip and pin, swipes are not accepted. The chip which has the encrypted card data is inserted in the POS. So they cannot skim the card data. They could get the PIN, but to create a card would be impossible as the information is never in the clear. So you get a PIN without chip information. Think of it as a card without mag strip. Skimmers would be useless.
    10-27-14 07:55 PM
  17. app_Developer's Avatar
    Google wallet still does not see what you have purchased. They don't get the SKU level of information. It's basically just it's own credit card, though virtual.
    That's right, but they see transaction data across cards, which we as banks don't see.


    And I'm not seeing how Apple Pay doesn't see the same. Apple Pay has to parse the data to initiate the transaction. That parsed data gives them the same information.
    Apple has no reason to parse the data in the transaction. They don't use a ghost card.


    Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk
    10-27-14 08:07 PM
  18. app_Developer's Avatar
    You are forgetting one thing. With EMV chip and pin, swipes are not accepted. The chip which has the encrypted card data is inserted in the POS. So they cannot skim the card data. They could get the PIN, but to create a card would be impossible as the information is never in the clear. So you get a PIN without chip information. Think of it as a card without mag strip. Skimmers would be useless.
    That will be the merchants choice. If a merchant doesn't upgrade their POS, and they swipe a card in a fraudulent transaction, the merchant will be liable for the loss. We'll simply reverse the charge.

    So upgrade and stop taking swipes, and you get the fraud protection. Or don't upgrade and you're on your own.

    Similarly the issuers can decide if to use chip and pin or chip and sig. Customers choose whichever card they prefer.


    Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk
    10-27-14 08:53 PM
  19. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    That will be the merchants choice. If a merchant doesn't upgrade their POS, and they swipe a card in a fraudulent transaction, the merchant will be liable for the loss. We'll simply reverse the charge.
    So upgrade and stop taking swipes, and you get the fraud protection. Or don't upgrade and you're on your own.
    Similarly the issuers can decide if to use chip and pin or chip and sig. Customers choose whichever card they prefer.
    Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk
    Not the way it works in Canada and the rest of the world. Swipes are no longer accepted on Canada issued cards. Also there is no choice on chip and pin or chip and sign. It all has be to be chip and pin. That is how it should work in the US.
    10-27-14 09:01 PM
  20. trwallace's Avatar
    The problem with all these digital pay systems is everyone wants the entire market they don't want a piece of the market. The banks want it. The credit card and debit card players want it and the phone manufacturers want it. With this thought in mind it will be hard for any one entity to succeed because one of those entities will put up a roadblock so not one of these companies gets the whole pie.unless someone can figure out a simple way to do it without involving any of those companies not one of them will control it. The technology is already there but to many players are sabotaging the big guys so they can't control it.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    10-27-14 09:32 PM
  21. Prem WatsApp's Avatar
    You are forgetting one thing. With EMV chip and pin, swipes are not accepted. The chip which has the encrypted card data is inserted in the POS. So they cannot skim the card data. They could get the PIN, but to create a card would be impossible as the information is never in the clear. So you get a PIN without chip information. Think of it as a card without mag strip. Skimmers would be useless.
    That's right. I was aware of that. :-)

    The US is way behind Europe, but in Australia we have cards with stripes as well as chip & PIN, so our cards are compatible with both systems at the moment. Currently they're phasing out signature for credit cards, only PIN in the future...

    Question is, would it be possible to duplicate cards with chip any other way? I'm sure there is some weakness and it will be found...

    There will probably also be a weakness in NFC systems and Apple Pay, once it goes mainstream it's likely to be found at some stage...

    (even if it's just the weak Windows systems behind the POSes... )

    ? ? ? Passposted via CB Chen ? ? ?
    Last edited by Prem WatsApp; 10-27-14 at 09:46 PM.
    10-27-14 09:34 PM
  22. dguy123's Avatar
    I think Apple pay will be a short lived narrowly used phenomenon.

    It has a number of factors working against it :

    1) it only applies to apple products. So narrow. Especially since the Android proliferation is only accelerating.

    2) they are taking a piece of the pie the banks don't need to give up. Would it be worth the effort to increase security of their own credit cards and offer a secure companion app for Android, Apple, Windows phone, and BlackBerry (would likely just be the android app)? You bet it would!

    Security problem solved. Fraud issues mitigated. And no need for anyone ever to pay the apple tax. Not even the banks.

    One solution, possibly per card issuer, but a UNIVERSAL solution that covers ALL of their customers, not just the ones that happen to own an iPhone.

    And if they're smart, they'll get together and have one solution, one app, for all cards. They've been moving in this direction for some time now anyway; evidenced by nfc working for all credit cards.

    Will this stuff ever replace chip cards? No. Could you imagine going to make a purchase and fumble your phone? SMASH payment now impossible. Or your battery runs out... eww sorry. Guess that long wait in the grocery line was for nothing.

    And since everyone will likely be carrying their chip cards with them, how much easier is it to pay by phone? It's NOT easier? Okay then, I'll just tap my card.

    So, tempest in a teacup from what I can tell.


    Posted via CB10
    10-27-14 09:56 PM
  23. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Apple has no reason to parse the data in the transaction. They don't use a ghost card.
    They don't use a ghost card. But they do act as the handshake between the merchant and the financial institution don't they?
    10-28-14 08:29 AM
  24. app_Developer's Avatar
    They don't use a ghost card. But they do act as the handshake between the merchant and the financial institution don't they?
    No they do not. That's why it took the level of integration that this took. That's what we all spent all that time on, and that's why banks (and our government regulators) like this system.


    Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk
    mornhavon likes this.
    10-28-14 08:49 AM
  25. Warlack's Avatar
    Don't know where I read it, but some of the mayor retailers are actively blocking apple pay.

    Anyone got some info on that?

    Posted via CB10
    10-28-14 09:00 AM
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