04-14-15 12:59 AM
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  1. crazigee's Avatar
    I agree that many have left, but there are still many BlackBerry owners on this forum or otherwise who were waiting in hopes of a flagship all-touch Z-series replacement. Any of those who aren't interested in waiting even longer on the Slider may be open to Apple's offer. Z10's, Q10's and Z30's are getting old, so some people might just need a new phone.
    I'm in that boat. I've patiently waited and been told next year time and time again. Next year has come and gone twice over and there's still no mention of a flagship all touch device. Instead there's one misguided keyboard after another.

    And a slider is a keyboard phone plain and simple, so that won't do for me.

    I definitely don't want to leave BlackBerry but it seems clear Chen isn't interested in anything except keyboard devices.

    At the same time there's no chance Apple will get any of my money. I want something with a micro USB charging port and microSD slot.

     Posted using my Z30 via CB10 
    03-24-15 10:41 PM
  2. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Apple's choke hold? On what? Android has over 70% of the mobile market share. Now that Sony is out of the "ridiculously over priced and not worth the money" laptop market, I guess Apple does have the upper hand in that market. But phones? Apple has already been beaten, handily.

    Of course Apple is scared of BlackBerry and Windows Phone 10. Even a 5% shift in over all market share would effectively reduce Apple's place in the market by roughly 25%.

    Posted via CB10
    Apple has what?
    2/3 of all the profits possible in the smartphone market, with their tiny 15% overall marketshare?

    No, they aren't scared of BlackBerry.
    In case of you not having noticed...
    Apple still doesn't has an entry level or mid-range phone.
    Those phones would be a sign of Apple needing more marketshare. Trade in programs aren't part of that.

    I know a lot of people are screaming for an all touch frankly I have been wanting one to replace my Z30 (used to have the Z10) however the new slider has me very intrigued as it doesn't look any thicker than my Z30 and if it has good specs I am for sure going to get one as really I don't need to use the keyboard if I don't want to but hey it is there if I want it. In short I think I am starting to come around to the concept of the slider and can see why they are pushing that over the all touch for now as it is really an all touch with a bonus keyboard instead of having to go and buy one like apple users have to.
    So, how many keyboard accessories have been sold?
    0.1% of actual iPhone users? Less?

    A slider is not a substitute for a full touch phone, if somebody doesn't want to type on keys. That's just not how it works.
    At least not outside of CrackBerry.

    ...and here again,...its worth remembering Apple already makes 93% of ALL of the profit in smartphones. So it hardly seems worth their effort to go after the middle and lower ends where Blackberry and Windows Phone live.

    As another poster pointed out, this is about selling watches. Blackberry's market share is hardly worth consideration.
    93%?
    That sounds too much, even for me

    I'll be looking at WP. Seems to be getting where everyone else wants to be but hasn't done it yet or can't.
    Slider and iPhone 6+S for me.

    Keep ignoring the reality that 80% of smart phone users use something else. That's not a little bit of a difference, but a resounding statement that Apple is simply not as popular as you make it out to be.
    I think that you are misunderstanding something here.
    Apple doesn't even try to be that popular.
    The average selling price of an Android is a complete joke, compared to the ASP of an iPhone.

    The Android marketshare is a bought one. Bought with 80$ devices.

    Apple simply has no need to go that low.
    They are so popular that they can demand 800$ for their devices, and still make more profits than all of the other players combined.

    It's also well known that iOS dominates the enterprise, and the richer the smartphone owner, the higher the chances are that he has an iPhone.

    Simply said: those 80% of Android devices, mostly are not Apple's market. The ASP of those Androids is just too different.
    Apple doesn't even try to enter that market. They actually ignore it completely (the cheap and mid-end market).

    How many of those 80% can't afford an iPhone and/or are in low end or emerging markets? If you put and iPhone 6 and a SGS5 in front most of these 80% and said pick one for free, what would most pick?

    Posted via CB10
    Depends. The SGS5 still supports replaceable batteries, and SD-cards.
    If I wouldn't dislike Android, those are reasons enough to buy the SGS5.

    Now, compared to the SGS6, I would only want the iPhone.

    Overall I know what you mean though.
    Most would very probably chose the iPhone.
    At least statistics indicated that.

    BB10 is not only more productive, it's highly Intuitive, Intelligent, Fast, Smooth and offers the best Gesture experience ever.
    Home Button? Lol ya Apple can keep that irritating experience to themselves. LOL

    Posted via CB10
    Would you say that you chosing a BB10 device over an iPhone, makes you superior and more intelligent, compared to all of the iSheeps out there?

    Because what you say sounds like that.
    And you have no idea how sad your posts really are, since that is the message you try to convey in 9/10 posts.
    I only LOL at your posts, because their content is so.... "Intelligent", that they actually make me cry.

    They've spent the last two years making devices finding out what customers DON'T want... which is full touchscreen devices.


    Continue to state that "what customers want is a BB10 all touch device" and Mr. Chen will haul out two years of sales data and inventory writedowns that prove that is NOT what they want.

    ...and if the popularity of iPhones means that "people don't like PKBs", then the popularity of super cheap Android devices means "People prefer Android over iOS". If you can rationalize rejection of PKBs by the popularity of Apple devices i.e. people like iPhones BECAUSE they don't have keyboards, then you must also accept that people don't like Android devices BECAUSE they're inexpensive, it's because they like Android better than iOS. Neither conclusion is correct but that's the same argument you hear on CrackBerry whenever someone suggests that BlackBerry should not continue to make devices like the Classic. I think a slider iOS device with a BlackBerry keyboard would sell VERY well. Startingly well. Just as the iPhone 6 Plus exceeded Apple's expectations, I believe a portrait QWERTY slider iPhone would sell in the 10s of millions per year.... but not JUST because it has a PKB... because it is running iOS AND ALSO has a PKB.
    0.2% keyboard marketshare in 2014.
    Under 0.1% in 2015.

    Yeah, you surely know how to interpret sales data.....
    The Z10 was the best selling BB10 device, the moment it got priced accordingly to the specs and the ecosystem.
    Remember T.Heins? "We're going to sell 10s of millions of Q10s".
    Well, they didn't.

    How many Classics and Passport will BlackBerry sell?
    What do you think?
    0.4% marketshare. That's what BlackBerry had last year. And you think that some overpriced phones like the Classic and the Leap will actually improve their share of the market?

    The market wants all touch.
    99.9% of smartphones sold this year won't have a keyboard.

    At specs:
    There's something we call a price/performance ratio.
    When every flagship for 700$ has a 1080p display and a quad core (or a dual 64 bit), then a BlackBerry for 700$ with a 720p display and a dual core from 2012 is overpriced and the market will reject it.

    It's not about a spec fetish.
    It's simply that most people in the "developed world" use mid to high-end phones and one of the only possible differentiatiors between the different tiers, happens through specs.
    A high-end phone with a high-end price tag has high-end specs.
    The only exception being chinese manufacturers, who make those high-end phones for 300$.

    The market for high-end devices is huge. The market for all touch phones makes out 99.9%....
    I don't think that you understand that data you have.

    But you are so biased and opinionated, that you probably wouldn't even believe it, if Chen says it himself.
    Your last paragraph shows that so clearly.
    99.9% of the market is all touch, through all price brackets. Android vs iOS is completely irrelevant here.
    Even BlackBerry sold more touchscreen than keyboard phones, under BB10. Not even BB10 users majorly want keyboards.

    But why think about those things, if you can endlessly rant how your opinion trumps hard facts and data.
    I love your posts. After reading them, I always feel entertained.
    eyesopen1111, JeepBB, TGR1 and 3 others like this.
    03-24-15 11:01 PM
  3. birdman_38's Avatar
    Apple has what?
    2/3 of all the profits possible in the smartphone market, with their tiny 15% overall marketshare?

    No, they aren't scared of BlackBerry.
    In case of you not having noticed...
    Apple still doesn't has an entry level or mid-range phone.
    Those phones would be a sign of Apple needing more marketshare. Trade in programs aren't part of that.



    So, how many keyboard accessories have been sold?
    0.1% of actual iPhone users? Less?

    A slider is not a substitute for a full touch phone, if somebody doesn't want to type on keys. That's just not how it works.
    At least not outside of CrackBerry.



    93%?
    That sounds too much, even for me



    Slider and iPhone 6+S for me.



    I think that you are misunderstanding something here.
    Apple doesn't even try to be that popular.
    The average selling price of an Android is a complete joke, compared to the ASP of an iPhone.

    The Android marketshare is a bought one. Bought with 80$ devices.

    Apple simply has no need to go that low.
    They are so popular that they can demand 800$ for their devices, and still make more profits than all of the other players combined.

    It's also well known that iOS dominates the enterprise, and the richer the smartphone owner, the higher the chances are that he has an iPhone.

    Simply said: those 80% of Android devices, mostly are not Apple's market. The ASP of those Androids is just too different.
    Apple doesn't even try to enter that market. They actually ignore it completely (the cheap and mid-end market).



    Depends. The SGS5 still supports replaceable batteries, and SD-cards.
    If I wouldn't dislike Android, those are reasons enough to buy the SGS5.

    Now, compared to the SGS6, I would only want the iPhone.

    Overall I know what you mean though.
    Most would very probably chose the iPhone.
    At least statistics indicated that.



    Would you say that you chosing a BB10 device over an iPhone, makes you superior and more intelligent, compared to all of the iSheeps out there?

    Because what you say sounds like that.
    And you have no idea how sad your posts really are, since that is the message you try to convey in 9/10 posts.
    I only LOL at your posts, because their content is so.... "Intelligent", that they actually make me cry.



    0.2% keyboard marketshare in 2014.
    Under 0.1% in 2015.

    Yeah, you surely know how to interpret sales data.....
    The Z10 was the best selling BB10 device, the moment it got priced accordingly to the specs and the ecosystem.
    Remember T.Heins? "We're going to sell 10s of millions of Q10s".
    Well, they didn't.

    How many Classics and Passport will BlackBerry sell?
    What do you think?
    0.4% marketshare. That's what BlackBerry had last year. And you think that some overpriced phones like the Classic and the Leap will actually improve their share of the market?

    The market wants all touch.
    99.9% of smartphones sold this year won't have a keyboard.

    At specs:
    There's something we call a price/performance ratio.
    When every flagship for 700$ has a 1080p display and a quad core (or a dual 64 bit), then a BlackBerry for 700$ with a 720p display and a dual core from 2012 is overpriced and the market will reject it.

    It's not about a spec fetish.
    It's simply that most people in the "developed world" use mid to high-end phones and one of the only possible differentiatiors between the different tiers, happens through specs.
    A high-end phone with a high-end price tag has high-end specs.
    The only exception being chinese manufacturers, who make those high-end phones for 300$.

    The market for high-end devices is huge. The market for all touch phones makes out 99.9%....
    I don't think that you understand that data you have.

    But you are so biased and opinionated, that you probably wouldn't even believe it, if Chen says it himself.
    Your last paragraph shows that so clearly.
    99.9% of the market is all touch, through all price brackets. Android vs iOS is completely irrelevant here.
    Even BlackBerry sold more touchscreen than keyboard phones, under BB10. Not even BB10 users majorly want keyboards.

    But why think about those things, if you can endlessly rant how your opinion trumps hard facts and data.
    I love your posts. After reading them, I always feel entertained.
    Word.
    MarsupilamiX and techvisor like this.
    03-24-15 11:19 PM
  4. kellyTKD's Avatar
    John Chen's hardware strategy has been crystal clear from day one:

    • Only build devices that are likely to be immediately profitable.
    • Don't build anything remotely like the iPhone
    • If the iPhone is getting taller, make ours wider or smaller
    • If it's a slab like the iPhone then make it cheap
    • Otherwise it needs a keyboard


    Even if he wanted to make an undifferentiated flagship slab the carriers would reject it even more than they did the Z30.
    03-24-15 11:25 PM
  5. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    The Leap makes more sense than a flagship. It gets BB10 in the hands of more customers overall.
    The Leap, if intended for anything else than being a fleet phone for enterprises, will fail.

    The price just isn't right for consumers.
    I can get 2 Androids, with better specs, for the price of one Leap.
    "Developed countries" mostly avoid low-end phones all together, so the Leap is basically DOA outside of the enterprise.

    The primary reason most of those users will "never know" has nothing to do with bullying and everything to do with BlackBerry's bull headed and arrogant refusal to advertise.

    Posted via CB10
    And to make an all touch flagship.
    iPhone 6 buyers, aren't keyboard guys...

    John Chen's hardware strategy has been crystal clear from day one:

    • Only build devices that are likely to be immediately profitable.
    • Don't build anything remotely like the iPhone
    • If the iPhone is getting taller, make ours wider or smaller
    • If it's a slab like the iPhone then make it cheap
    • Otherwise it needs a keyboard


    Even if he wanted to make an undifferentiated flagship slab the carriers would reject it even more than they did the Z30.
    I don't know.
    It's nearly impossible to fail that much again.
    The Z30 was one of the worst 600-700$ phones of its generation...

    At 300$ it was pretty good though.
    JeepBB and techvisor like this.
    03-24-15 11:40 PM
  6. fishlove73's Avatar


    This is promising though. And March27 will be another indicator of where things are going. A lot of talk about big ugly passports...it's ugly, I like it... but it ain't that big.
    Attachment 343633

    Brought to you by an overpriced carrier.
    03-25-15 12:53 AM
  7. tchocky77's Avatar
    This will be abused for people to resell iPhones from trading in old, broken or junk phones.

    Posted via CB10
    If it puts iPhones in the hands of end-users, I think that's probably Apple's goal. So from their perspective, it's hard to see how this gets "abused."

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    03-25-15 01:52 AM
  8. tchocky77's Avatar
    .... but now they are seeing a partnership starting between Samsung and BlackBerry in the enterprise market that can and will bleed in to the consumer market. With apple already loosing ground to Samsung (no not BlackBerry) they are on the defensive to curb that trend.
    Two things,...I think it's being generous to call the Blackberry/Samsung thing "a partnership."

    And Apple actually moved MORE units last quarter with their 2 phones than Samsung moved of their forty. (Or however many.)

    So you're correct that one of them is "losing ground." But it isn't Apple.

    *sigh*

    Straightening up the facts on Crackberry is a Sisyphean task sometimes.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    JeepBB, TGR1 and techvisor like this.
    03-25-15 02:01 AM
  9. tchocky77's Avatar
    ...of course for the future and for survival everyone, not only BB will have to commit to multi platform support, even Apple is trying to spread to other platforms.
    How is Apple "trying to spread to other platforms?"

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    03-25-15 02:08 AM
  10. tchocky77's Avatar
    93%?
    That sounds too much, even for me
    I know. It's almost unbelievable.

    But right here it is.
    http://www.businessinsider.com/apple...try-now-2015-2

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    03-25-15 02:53 AM
  11. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Two things,...I think it's being generous to call the Blackberry/Samsung thing "a partnership."

    And Apple actually moved MORE units last quarter with their 2 phones than Samsung moved of their forty. (Or however many.)

    So you're correct that one of them is "losing ground." But it isn't Apple.

    *sigh*

    Straightening up the facts on Crackberry is a Sisyphean task sometimes.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    I don't think that most people in here want to know all of these facts.
    The worse it looks for BlackBerry's hardware division, the more extreme and radical the fanboys are getting.

    We have witnessed the return of "better Android than Android", after it being extinct for nearly 1 year.

    We seem to honestly debate, if, in 2015, with 0.1% marketshare for keyboard phones, a strategy focused on them makes sense.
    Actually, it's even more basic, we debate, 9 years after the physical keyboard completely lost to the touchscreen, if people don't actually love physical keyboards.

    We suddenly see "partnerships", whom neither BlackBerry nor Samsung are aware of themselves.

    There is still a very vocal subset of users who still believe in "tools not toys". In 2015...
    Even though enterprise and pro users have switched to Android and iOS a long time ago.

    But yeah, if you ask me, this is mostly related to the performance of BlackBerry's handset division.
    The harder the times, the more "creative" and desperate fanboys.
    This forum has some really sad similarities with the WebOs forum, back in the day when Palm fought for their survival...
    The level of denial is pretty similar as well, to be honest.

    Let's just hope that BlackBerry has at least one big surprise left for us.
    eyesopen1111, JeepBB, TGR1 and 3 others like this.
    03-25-15 03:14 AM
  12. BCITMike's Avatar
    I'm far from an iFan. I haven't owned an iPhone since the 3GS, but I do have more faith than you in people's ability to make sound decisions and take responsibility for their lives. Yes, we all know a feckless someone who stumbles thorough life, making irrational decisions at every turn. Those people (including those owning an iPhone) aren't even close to being in the majority... If they were, our species would have been toast eons ago!

    Someone who buys a phone because he sees that his buddies, who presumably lead a similar life, have one; *has* indisputably considered their needs. They've chosen to buy a phone that completely meets the needs of people leading the life that they do. That's hardly an irrational or mindless act.

    My main takeaway from your post is that you seem to believe that that majority of your social group are "mindless fools". Hopefully I've just got the wrong end of the stick, and you don't really believe that of your friends.
    Sure, I do, when buying a phone. Otherwise, they're alright.
    03-25-15 03:17 AM
  13. BCITMike's Avatar
    If it puts iPhones in the hands of end-users, I think that's probably Apple's goal. So from their perspective, it's hard to see how this gets "abused."

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    Because some people who would have otherwise paid full price will now pay a lower price. It's like when a restaurant puts out coupons for the local lunch place that you go to 3-5 times a week. The more regular customers use the coupons, the less profit they bring in that they otherwise would have brought in without the coupons. The more new customers you get, the bigger pay off the coupons were for the restaurant. The big difference here is that a restaurant often has food that would have otherwise been no good at the end of the night and doesn't turn into profit anyways. So as long as they move all food without having to buy extra food, they make more money discounting regular and new customers with that promotion. But they need NEW customers for it to be worth it, and a minimum amount to break even and more to make profit over the previous week.

    With iPhone getting several hundred dollar discount, that is a pretty decent drop in profit. There is already overhead just to run the program. If there was a requirement to be of certain value, that would reduce the number of people who buy them up and sell on craiglist. I hear all the time how iPhone's have great resale value. So if you can turn in a junk phone that cost little or nothing and got $100 or more off, then people can buy flog them on craiglist, ebay, etc.

    There is so much profit margin, I'm sure they are not going to come close to breaking even let alone losing money, so the risk is low. The is the first time they've ran a program like this, AFAIK, so it'll be interesting to see how successful it is at converting users from other platforms instead of the usual regulars upgrading.
    03-25-15 03:36 AM
  14. tchocky77's Avatar
    Sure, I do, when buying a phone. Otherwise, they're alright.
    If you say so. They're your friends after all.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    03-25-15 03:40 AM
  15. tchocky77's Avatar
    The is the first time they've ran a program like this, AFAIK, so it'll be interesting to see how successful it is at converting users from other platforms instead of the usual regulars upgrading.
    Well to your first point, this will be the first time they've ever offered store credit for other companies products, yes. But they've always offered store credit for bringing in your old iPods, Macs, iPads...any Apple product they could recycle.

    To your second point, I agree. It would be very interesting to see the breakdown. But alas, that's information Apple is never going to give us unless its a REALLY huge number of Android, Blackberry turn-ins. In that case, it'll be a slide in the first five minutes of Tim Cook's next keynote.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    03-25-15 03:47 AM
  16. tchocky77's Avatar
    Because some people who would have otherwise paid full price will now pay a lower price.
    But if Apple is doing this, haven't they already determined that to be the case anyway? And that it'll be worth it because of,....I dunno,...all the potential iTunes/App Store/iCloud subscriptions?

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    JeepBB likes this.
    03-25-15 03:50 AM
  17. BCITMike's Avatar
    That's a foolish thing to think.

    We can speak from empirical data, and do every single day.

    Just because you associate with fools that buy iPhones doesn't mean everyone of the millions of people that have bought, and then happily bought again, an iphone are of such low stock.

    But I'm not surprised, given that you think "we can only speak from anecdotal experience." That's just dumb.
    anecdotal: not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

    My points:
    1. "mindless fools" isn't a hard meaning for everyone. At least we didn't cover it when I went to school. What one person thinks it means, another doesn't. Given the same data, different conclusions can be reached. One person thinks its perfectly good reason to buy a phone because their friends have it, when another thinks that is a mindless decision. Both have their arguments. If you ask someone why they bought their phone and they answered "I don't know", you could argue that is mindless fool. It depends on the definition.

    2. "empirical data". I do not think you know what those words mean. Tell me, what experiments can you personally speak of? I missed where when people bought a phone, they gave their reasons for buying the iPhone. Oh wait, they don't. This is subjective.

    No where did I say "everyone of the millions of people that have bought" were fools. I'm expressly trying to say we are coloured by our immediate experiences (anecdotes), and no one knows (or can know). I gave my rough sample size of 5-10. Why are you trying to twist my points around? I f'n hate that and you do that often around CB.

    This is similar to arguing if <insert boy band> is good. They sell tons of records, tons of fans, makes tons of money, but there is no shortage of people who argue the music is crap. Sure, you can analyze the music for complexity or some junk, but its all subjective.
    03-25-15 04:07 AM
  18. BCITMike's Avatar
    But if Apple is doing this, haven't they already determined that to be the case anyway? And that it'll be worth it because of,....I dunno,...all the potential iTunes/App Store/iCloud subscriptions?

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    If they determined that people were not converting solely due to high cost. I can't speak for what Apple did. But it does make sense if they saturate their core market of people who have more spending money, then in theory making the product cheaper makes the target market much bigger.

    One might say android people are more typically into free apps than iOS or BlackBerry users. So converting them does mean profit, but not at the same margin as selling to someone at full price, who buys apps, music, video's, etc.
    03-25-15 04:12 AM
  19. tchocky77's Avatar
    I know what empirical data is but it's clear you don't.

    We have SEEN, both directly, through our own personal acquaintances, dozens of people, and indirectly, through sales numbers, millions of people buy iPhones and STATISTICALLY, (through customer sat numbers) that they have been happy with those iPhones.
    techvisor likes this.
    03-25-15 04:53 AM
  20. tchocky77's Avatar
    If they determined that people were not converting solely due to high cost. I can't speak for what Apple did.
    Given the success this company has enjoyed, I think any thinking person can reasonably infer that they thought it through.

    If you don't like the way I use your own words against you, then don't use them in a very feeble attempt at being sly while also being insulting.
    JeepBB and techvisor like this.
    03-25-15 04:55 AM
  21. mvpcrossxover's Avatar
    Sometimes I wish Crackberry is not popular.

    Posted via CB10
    03-25-15 05:13 AM
  22. nt300's Avatar
    Ecosystem.
    All better reason not to waist your money on an iCrap ecosystem. Why support a company that partakes in Mass Tax Evasion in many countries. ? Why support such company?

    Sexy White Z30
    03-25-15 07:51 AM
  23. tchocky77's Avatar
    All better reason not to waist your money on an iCrap ecosystem. Why support a company that partakes in Mass Tax Evasion in many countries. ? Why support such company?

    Sexy White Z30
    I don't see how "ecosystem" gets you there, but anyway, I'm game.
    Here goes...in MY country, Apple plays the game entirely within the bounds of the law. I personally take any available measures to legally minimize my own tax liability. Why would I expect a publicly traded business to be any different?

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    jmr1015, TGR1, marty314 and 1 others like this.
    03-25-15 08:44 AM
  24. birdman_38's Avatar
    All better reason not to waist your money on an iCrap ecosystem. Why support a company that partakes in Mass Tax Evasion in many countries. ? Why support such company?
    *waste. That has nothing to do with the iOS ecosystem.
    techvisor likes this.
    03-25-15 08:50 AM
  25. gallopiton's Avatar
    To be honest, when I read your post I thought the same thing, that you were an apple employee or company working in their behalf, good to know that you just sound like one of them hahaha

    Dude, I'm the OP and I am not a marketing firm, nor do I work for Apple. You may be suffering from a frequent Crackberry paranoid delusion about Apple's wicked plot to God-knows-what!?!

    One thing is for sure, and that's that Apple continues to have monster quarter after monster quarter, so they are the furthest thing from desperate imaginable. In fact, if you're looking for desperate, BlackBerry's last several years and current agenda might be a good starting point.


    Posted via CB10
    03-25-15 09:08 AM
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