07-11-14 09:53 AM
42 12
tools
  1. kojita's Avatar
    Hi all,

    Could someone explain what is the impact of android L based on ART on future update to the android runtime of BlackBerry, will BlackBerry manage to update their runtime tot his version of android. It seems like a big shift rather than an incremental one?

    Thanks

    Posted via CB10
    06-26-14 01:24 AM
  2. howarmat's Avatar
    they would have to run the ART and Dalvik both which i dont think they will do for now. Most all apps will be compatible with both since Dalvik is still present in most of the android devices out there.
    eduzojordan and kojita like this.
    06-26-14 01:31 AM
  3. eddy_berry's Avatar
    I agree with howarmat. BlackBerry has a lot of time to switch to ART. At the very least another year before ART becomes a thing and Dalvic will still dominate over ART based handsets for a while after. So there will still be plenty of Android apps available and plenty of time to make the switch to ART. They could potentially have it ready long before it even needed.
    kojita likes this.
    06-26-14 02:55 AM
  4. Moopusmaximus's Avatar
    It shouldn't be too bad.

    ART for the most part is completely compatible with Dalvik apps. Google aims to make it 100% compatible with apps. Using 4.4.3, all of my apps work with ART on my Nexus 5.

    So, as long as BlackBerry updates the runtime to 4.4 or even Android L, we should be fine.

    However I don't expect this anytime soon seeing as BB10.3 is on 4.3, which is almost a whole year old.

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    kojita likes this.
    06-26-14 03:11 AM
  5. epyon52328's Avatar
    It shouldn't be too bad.

    ART for the most part is completely compatible with Dalvik apps. Google aims to make it 100% compatible with apps. Using 4.4.3, all of my apps work with ART on my Nexus 5.

    So, as long as BlackBerry updates the runtime to 4.4 or even Android L, we should be fine.

    However I don't expect this anytime soon seeing as BB10.3 is on 4.3, which is almost a whole year old.

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    Yeah that does kinda suck. Would be better if BlackBerry could find a way to push out runtime updates quicker.

    Posted via CB10
    06-26-14 09:24 AM
  6. unclebanglin's Avatar
    As long as it doesn't break the few android apps I use, I'm okay

    Posted via CB10
    06-26-14 11:10 AM
  7. wout000's Avatar
    Straight from the official Android site:

    Most existing apps should just work when running with ART. However, some techniques that work on Dalvik do not work on ART.
    So most apps will keep on working, they only speak of 4 major difference between ART and DALVIK which are:

    1. Garbage Collection
    2. AOT (Ahead of Time Compilation)
    3. Stack size
    4. Object model changes


    The Garbage collection will be more efficient as System.gc() won't be prompted as much to invoke garbage collection. A lot of current Android apps don't use this method and even if they do they won't break.

    The AOT will be stricter and may cause some incompatible or corrupt apps when compiling. However, apps created by standard Android Tools will be fine. Google is currently working with other tool vendors to find why apps get corrupted and they say they will hunt those bugs down and fix them. So this shouldn't have any effect on app compatibility once it's officialy released.

    Instead of seperate stacks for native and JAVA code in DALVIK, ART will have one unified stack. This won't affect app performance or compatibility except if the apps explicitly sets the stack size in which case it will need to be recoded to be compatible.

    Dalvik allows for subclasses while ART won't allow this. While this won't affect the app, it will throw an error in ART and a simple change by the app creator will circumvent this.

    So most apps will be able to migrate to ART without the need of huge changes. It's a bit like APK's being converted to BAR. Small changes were needed for most of the apps to run smooth, while others will have to be recoded more extensively. I'm sure Google will provide ample support and incentives for developers to adjust their apps to run on ART.
    Either way, BlackBerry needs to focus on optimizing the ART runtime to run on BB10 and the transition from Dalvik to ART will happen without a hitch with most of the heavy lifting being done by Google.
    allengeorge, schmeat and kojita like this.
    06-26-14 12:12 PM
  8. howarmat's Avatar
    The biggest thing I see going forward is not the change to ART for now. Its how everything is is becoming much more reliant on the google services. They just introduced 3-4 huge SDK releases allowing for integration of apps pretty much everywhere. I am going to assume lots of this will use google's built in services to transport and tie the data together. More and more apps wont work when you get them from snap. They hopefully will also add their app to amazon app store but if they dont you will be be SOL
    06-26-14 12:42 PM
  9. just_luc's Avatar
    However I don't expect this anytime soon seeing as BB10.3 is on 4.3, which is almost a whole year old.

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    Yeah that does kinda suck. Would be better if BlackBerry could find a way to push out runtime updates quicker.

    Posted via CB10
    I remind you that Blackberry has gone from 2.3 to 4.2 to 4.3 in a year and a half.. I'd actually say that's a blazing development speed where the runtime is concerned. I'm sure if it's possible or wise to upgrade the runtime to 'L' they will before long.. especially given their new reliance on amazon for apps. Of course, that might also depend on whether or not Amazon upgrades the kindle devices to the ART environment. if they don't there's really no point is there? As much as we all like snap.. you can't expect BlackBerry to cater to it. Amazon is the official path.

    The biggest thing I see going forward is not the change to ART for now. Its how everything is is becoming much more reliant on the google services. They just introduced 3-4 huge SDK releases allowing for integration of apps pretty much everywhere. I am going to assume lots of this will use google's built in services to transport and tie the data together. More and more apps wont work when you get them from snap. They hopefully will also add their app to amazon app store but if they dont you will be be SOL
    I see this as the larger concern as well.. I see this as intentional by Google.. they say the platform is open source, and it'll continue to be.. but by encouraging more and more apps to tie into play services they're ensuring more and more apps do not work on both BlackBerry and Kindle.
    JeepBB, kbz1960 and mediadavid like this.
    06-26-14 12:53 PM
  10. Ment's Avatar
    App verification with Gplay is the biggest problem with Snap. Google is pushing devs to use it for security and piracy reasons but it messes up apps when it updates.
    06-26-14 01:32 PM
  11. szlevi's Avatar
    they would have to run the ART and Dalvik both which i dont think they will do for now. Most all apps will be compatible with both since Dalvik is still present in most of the android devices out there.
    Filter it to "Not working" and you'll see some of the unduly ones: List of broken apps in Android RunTime (ART)
    06-26-14 02:21 PM
  12. howarmat's Avatar
    Filter it to "Not working" and you'll see some of the unduly ones: List of broken apps in Android RunTime (ART)
    the list is hit and miss. I know some of the apps on there do work as I just switched a couple days ago to ART and some of my apps i thought were going to be broke but work fine.
    06-26-14 02:36 PM
  13. mikeo007's Avatar
    Immediate impact will be almost nil. The real impact will come when only new features/APIs are supported by ART. Dalvik has already been removed from the master branch of the AOSP, so all future enhancements will be made solely to ART.
    06-26-14 03:53 PM
  14. anon1727506's Avatar
    What version of Android is the Kindle OS based on, isn't it even older than the BlackBerry runtime? Going forward keeping up with Amazon is "all" BlackBerry has to do.

    The question is if Amazon has to implement their own app validation "services", will they allow BlackBerry to use it?

    Posted via Android CrackBerry App
    06-27-14 06:46 AM
  15. mikeo007's Avatar
    They use Android API level 15 right now, so it's several years behind, so around ICS.
    06-27-14 07:13 AM
  16. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    App verification with Gplay is the biggest problem with Snap. Google is pushing devs to use it for security and piracy reasons but it messes up apps when it updates.
    The thing is, there are a lot of Android phones that are not GPlay certified. Not just the BB10 runtime.

    Posted from CB10 running on my awesome Z30 2B6927F7
    web99 likes this.
    06-29-14 03:26 AM
  17. kojita's Avatar
    What are the odds of seeing gplay come to bb10, with the amazon agreement I guess it is not for soon. But instead we will see increased compatibility and runtime performance improvement. Perhaps in a second step when android app will be flawless (load time, performance, resume after pause...) we might see gplay ?

    On the original post, it seems they are updating the runtime quite fast so I would not be surprised to see an update to L in 2015... we are after all with a more recent runtime than many android devices...

    Posted via CB10
    06-29-14 04:32 AM
  18. Ment's Avatar
    The thing is, there are a lot of Android phones that are not GPlay certified. Not just the BB10 runtime.

    Posted from CB10 running on my awesome Z30 2B6927F7
    If you're in China, thats where the majority of non-Gplay Android devices are. Also where the overwhelming majority of where Android malware is found, from those non-Gplay stores.

    What are the odds of seeing gplay come to bb10, with the amazon agreement I guess it is not for soon. But instead we will see increased compatibility and runtime performance improvement. Perhaps in a second step when android app will be flawless (load time, performance, resume after pause...) we might see gplay ?

    On the original post, it seems they are updating the runtime quite fast so I would not be surprised to see an update to L in 2015... we are after all with a more recent runtime than many android devices...

    Posted via CB10
    Still next to nil. The Amazon agreement reinforces the BB path for android app compatibility via runtime and Google isn't having that.

    The biggest difference you'll find is that the app load improvement in 10.3 is negated by the further increases in speed of Android L with ART. App load times from KitKat to Android L is pretty dramatic.
    anon1727506 likes this.
    06-29-14 05:48 AM
  19. allengeorge's Avatar
    Google Play Services are more of an issue, and I don't see that being resolved any time soon. I'd be curious if an open-source adaptation layer will come out into which you can plug specific backends (kinda like slf4j and logback/jul/log4j in the java logging space).
    07-01-14 10:46 AM
  20. anon1727506's Avatar
    The thing is, there are a lot of Android phones that are not GPlay certified. Not just the BB10 runtime.

    Posted from CB10 running on my awesome Z30 2B6927F7
    Which is why I think Google is encouraging developers to do verification via Google Services - it's for the developers benefit to slow down or maybe stop piracy of their newer apps, but in the end it blocks those non-certified devices from some of the better apps. Would not be surprised if even Amazon has to give in and start using stock Android in the years to come.

    It's like building your house on property you don't own.....
    anon8091350 and JeepBB like this.
    07-01-14 11:21 AM
  21. mnc76's Avatar
    Immediate impact will be almost nil. The real impact will come when only new features/APIs are supported by ART. Dalvik has already been removed from the master branch of the AOSP, so all future enhancements will be made solely to ART.
    EXACTLY.

    This sums every concern about ART up perfectly.

    Posted via CB10
    07-06-14 02:29 AM
  22. mnc76's Avatar
    The biggest thing I see going forward is not the change to ART for now. Its how everything is is becoming much more reliant on the google services. They just introduced 3-4 huge SDK releases allowing for integration of apps pretty much everywhere. I am going to assume lots of this will use google's built in services to transport and tie the data together. More and more apps wont work when you get them from snap. They hopefully will also add their app to amazon app store but if they dont you will be be SOL
    Yup. This is also a big concern.

    However: I hope developers take note of a recent report that stated that 32% of all Android phones use a forked version of Android (e.g.: a non-Google Play compatible version).

    Time will tell.

    Posted via CB10
    07-06-14 02:31 AM
  23. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Yup. This is also a big concern.

    However: I hope developers take note of a recent report that stated that 32% of all Android phones use a forked version of Android (e.g.: a non-Google Play compatible version).
    Yes, but probably 95% of those phones are in China or North Korea, both of which block Google Services anyway, so there's no impact for those phones.

    In the west, 97-98% of Android phones are Google certified.
    07-06-14 04:33 AM
  24. Ment's Avatar
    Even if security/piracy is not a concern for Android devs, compatibility with Android Wear certainly is and that will require GFS. So look at the Android apps you use now and if any use notifications to any degree look forward to incompatibility with non-Gplay devices. Google decided to tighten its grip given OEMs like Samsung had a wandering eye (Tizen) and look at it now, Samsung gave Knox away to Android L and Android Wear devices won't be able to have OEM skins.
    anon1727506, mornhavon and JeepBB like this.
    07-06-14 07:34 PM
  25. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Which is why I think Google is encouraging developers to do verification via Google Services - it's for the developers benefit to slow down or maybe stop piracy of their newer apps, but in the end it blocks those non-certified devices from some of the better apps. Would not be surprised if even Amazon has to give in and start using stock Android in the years to come.

    It's like building your house on property you don't own.....
    Yep. Gonna get interesting down the line.
    07-06-14 07:41 PM
42 12

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