1. gvs1341's Avatar
    Ahem, shouldn't these things have multiple layers of redundancy? And why don't they!?
    .
    .
    ...American said in an email to USA TODAY that the issue was rooted in an problem with software application on iPads.
    ...
    "In some cases, the flight has had to
    return to the gate to access a Wi-Fi
    connection to fix the issue,"...
    ...
    The crew explained that flight plans are
    transmitted on the iPads, which make
    them crucial to navigation...

    ...
    The iPad glitch that grounded two dozen US flights - Americas - World - The Independent

     Q5 / Z30
    Last edited by gvs1341; 04-29-15 at 01:58 PM.
    04-29-15 01:40 PM
  2. bhrgvr's Avatar
    Interesting read...

    Posted via CB10
    04-29-15 01:46 PM
  3. Jerry A's Avatar
    Ask Boeing - they wrote the buggy software. This isn't an issue with the iPad, it's an issue with a bad software update.

    They could've been running this on a PlayBook and had the same thing happen.

    Mentioning the iPad instead of a software glitch is pure click bait (which seemed to work).



    Posted via CB10
    jmr1015, TGR1, NinerJet9 and 3 others like this.
    04-29-15 02:29 PM
  4. Prem WatsApp's Avatar
    Why are they relying on flippin' iPads to keep planes in the air?
    One iBrick bug and they're screwed... 8-o

    (PS. I just joined the Apple Crowd and bought an iPad mini 2 to see what all the Apple fuss was about, but I still seem to use my PlayBook more...)

      Passposted while waiting for the Z-lider....  
    04-29-15 03:57 PM
  5. TheScionicMan's Avatar
    Ask Boeing - they wrote the buggy software. This isn't an issue with the iPad, it's an issue with a bad software update.
    Do you have a source for that info? A bad app can take out an entire fleet of iPads? And that's strictly a Boeing issue?

    after the airplane was sitting for quite some time, the pilot came over the loudspeaker to explain.

    "He said, 'My copilot's iPad went black. Exactly 24 minutes after that, mine went black. We were informed it looks like a problem with all the iPads on 737s,' " Jacaruso, 54, recalled.
    04-29-15 04:46 PM
  6. TheScionicMan's Avatar
    (PS. I just joined the Apple Crowd and bought an iPad mini 2 to see what all the Apple fuss was about, but I still seem to use my PlayBook more...)
    My boss just jailbroke his iPad Mini and loaded it with KODI. He's loving it!

    Kodi | Open Source Home Theatre Software
    04-29-15 05:39 PM
  7. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    There has to be a LOT more to the story other than what was used as an excuse.

    No tablet, regardless which brand or platform, is critical for flight operations.
    DrBoomBotz likes this.
    04-29-15 05:48 PM
  8. redlightblinking's Avatar
    Do you have a source for that info? A bad app can take out an entire fleet of iPads? And that's strictly a Boeing issue?
    The article indicated it was a software problem (the app) not the Ipad itself. So, yea, if the app is bad, and all iPads in the fleet use it....they all are potentially affected. I can't speak to Boeing as it seemed to be more about American Airlines, but perhaps the app was written and provided by Boeing.
    04-29-15 05:52 PM
  9. redlightblinking's Avatar
    There has to be a LOT more to the story other than what was used as an excuse.

    No tablet, regardless which brand or platform, is critical for flight operations.
    Agreed. I think that's why only a handful of flights were affected. Might be more about the fact that even a handful of pilots are so dependent on their device that they can't operate without it using standard methods or they didn't prepare their flight plans with any other method and it was the only thing they had.
    04-29-15 05:54 PM
  10. ChrisAmbrose's Avatar
    It wasn't Boeings fault lol. It's the Airlines using iPads instead of paper for flight manifests. Basic info like that, not something that would physically stop the plane operating normally, however flight manifests are critical for ensuring only the right people are on the plane.

    As said before though, it isn't the iPad's fault, just a software glitch that somehow affected a server the apps use.

    PassportSQW100-1/10.3.1.2576
    04-29-15 06:04 PM
  11. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    It wasn't Boeings fault lol. It's the Airlines using iPads instead of paper for flight manifests. Basic info like that, not something that would physically stop the plane operating normally, however flight manifests are critical for ensuring only the right people are on the plane.

    As said before though, it isn't the iPad's fault, just a software glitch that somehow affected a server the apps use.
    Even with the added inclusion of tablets, pilots till have the traditional paper hard copies of manifests (trivial), flight maps, etc...

    What's most likely the case in this instance, is that the iPads probably pull their information from the same source as various flight instrumentation, and it was only noticed first on the iPads because that's what the pilots were currently staring at when there was a problem. Without the tablets, they'd probably see the same issues with the actual aircraft instrumentation.
    04-29-15 06:18 PM
  12. gvs1341's Avatar
    ...
    What's most likely the case in this instance, is that the iPads probably pull their information from the same source as various flight instrumentation, and it was only noticed first on the iPads because that's what the pilots were currently staring at when there was a problem.
    ...
    Multiple iPads (needing) reboot or going blank sounds more like software (app) bug than server side issue.

    ...Without the tablets, they'd probably see the same issues with the actual aircraft instrumentation.
    ...Might be more about the fact that even a handful of pilots are so dependent on their device that they can't operate without it using standard methods or they didn't prepare their flight plans with any other method and it was the only thing they had.
    This is the real concern; they need multiple layers of redundancy - but why didn't they have that?!

     Q5 / Z30
    Last edited by gvs1341; 04-29-15 at 11:10 PM.
    04-29-15 10:44 PM
  13. ronfc's Avatar
    Even with the added inclusion of tablets, pilots till have the traditional paper hard copies of manifests (trivial), flight maps, etc...

    What's most likely the case in this instance, is that the iPads probably pull their information from the same source as various flight instrumentation, and it was only noticed first on the iPads because that's what the pilots were currently staring at when there was a problem. Without the tablets, they'd probably see the same issues with the actual aircraft instrumentation.
    Aircraft instruments are robust and redundant, it is very unlikely for three or two computers to fail at the same time. If a computer does fail, back up will automatically take over, and the cockpit crew will be notified by texts on the Engine Indication and Crew Alerting System (on Boeing) or Electronic Centralized Aircraft Monitor (on Airbus), audio, and 'FAULT' lights indication. The FAA allows such laptops or iPads and they are classified as Class 1 EFB (Electronic Flight Bag) hardware. As an aircraft mechanic, I prefer Class 3 EFBs (they are installed near the window of the pilot/co-pilot) because they are subject to airworthiness requirements and under design control.

    Cave, cave, moderator videt
    gvs1341, Thesmartmale and howarmat like this.
    04-30-15 08:24 AM
  14. DigitalMadness's Avatar
    Even with the added inclusion of tablets, pilots till have the traditional paper hard copies of manifests (trivial), flight maps, etc...
    They don't carry the hard copy because it is on the ipad.


    Posted via CB10
    04-30-15 09:11 AM
  15. f0xG3's Avatar
    I can't believe the integrity of a flight rests on a consumer-oriented device that somehow is just repurposed for industrial use.

    Passport | SQW100-1/10.3.2.500 | Globe PH
    rthonpm and Thesmartmale like this.
    04-30-15 09:34 AM
  16. TGR1's Avatar
    04-30-15 10:10 AM
  17. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    They don't carry the hard copy because it is on the ipad.


    Posted via CB10
    Yeah, actually they do.

    Via Tapatalk
    04-30-15 04:06 PM
  18. Stewartj1's Avatar
    There has to be a LOT more to the story other than what was used as an excuse.

    No tablet, regardless which brand or platform, is critical for flight operations.
    Agree, it sounds like there's more to go story. The iPad may contain the flight plan but I'd presume all that information would be transferred to the aircraft's computer system before leaving the gate.

    Z10 via CB10
    04-30-15 04:10 PM
  19. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Aircraft instruments are robust and redundant, it is very unlikely for three or two computers to fail at the same time. If a computer does fail, back up will automatically take over, and the cockpit crew will be notified by texts on the Engine Indication and Crew Alerting System (on Boeing) or Electronic Centralized Aircraft Monitor (on Airbus), audio, and 'FAULT' lights indication. The FAA allows such laptops or iPads and they are classified as Class 1 EFB (Electronic Flight Bag) hardware. As an aircraft mechanic, I prefer Class 3 EFBs (they are installed near the window of the pilot/co-pilot) because they are subject to airworthiness requirements and under design control.

    Cave, cave, moderator videt
    Redundant systems don't mean squat if all those redundancies rely upon a single source of information. This particular instance has nothing to do with redundancies. Ipads (or any handheld devices) do not contain any information that the aircraft requires to operate. They merely contain information convenient to the pilots. Basically flight manifests, maps, and a table of radio frequencies available throughout their flight pathes. In no way does the aircraft itself rely upon those tablets. In addition to the tablets, the flight crew still carries paper maps etc... The tablet simply makes things more convenient.

    You may be an aircraft mechanic, but I have several years experience as an avionics tech that has worked directly with Air Crew in military flight operations, commercial Aviation, as well as general aviation.

    Via Tapatalk
    mikeo007, techvisor and JeepBB like this.
    04-30-15 04:23 PM
  20. JeepBB's Avatar
    In addition to the tablets, the flight crew still carries paper maps etc... The tablet simply makes things more convenient.
    Yup, similar story in the UK. I stopped flying a few years ago, but I doubt much has changed.

    You can use all the "toys" you want to ease your navigation tasks, but you'd better be able to show the CAA (our FAA) that there's a paper map, approved instrument approach charts, etc within easy reach of the pilots if they come looking.
    05-01-15 02:37 AM
  21. ronfc's Avatar
    Redundant systems don't mean squat if all those redundancies rely upon a single source of information. This particular instance has nothing to do with redundancies. Ipads (or any handheld devices) do not contain any information that the aircraft requires to operate. They merely contain information convenient to the pilots. Basically flight manifests, maps, and a table of radio frequencies available throughout their flight pathes. In no way does the aircraft itself rely upon those tablets. In addition to the tablets, the flight crew still carries paper maps etc... The tablet simply makes things more convenient.

    You may be an aircraft mechanic, but I have several years experience as an avionics tech that has worked directly with Air Crew in military flight operations, commercial Aviation, as well as general aviation.

    Via Tapatalk
    I'm also experienced so don't boast what you know. If you are really "experienced" the you probably know that redundant systems rely on redundant sensors. They are fully independent of each other. With regards to the flight path, you can always enter waypoints on an MCDU, and it's the airline's fault for letting a commercial product take such a job as EFB. As I have said, EFB Class 3 are better because they are made for such tasks and subjected to airworthiness compliance and readily serviceable on an MRO.

    Cave, cave, moderator videt
    Thesmartmale likes this.
    05-01-15 06:24 AM

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