[claytonknight]

Greetings to anyone stumbling across this!

Throughout the early 00s I was a DIE HARD Blackberry addict. Like many, however, wooed away by shiny new tech and let down by Blackberry's lack of valid attempts to keep up, I found myself "chasing the same high" with other tech from the likes of HTC, Apple, etc...

I'm not sure if the mandatory stay-at-home orders got to me or what spurred my self-reflection of my digital life, but everything is too connected. Leading me back into the Blackberry fold a la the Blackberry Classic. While I still miss my smile-style keyboard of my last true Blackberry (Bold 9900,) it does scratch that itch I could never quite suppress with other devices.

So while there's more that follows my next question to the audience, let's start first by asking- "what keeps you on the platform?"
My follow-up to that is "do you see yourself continuing to use the platform until there's no possible way to do so?" This question is mainly for the BB10 users in the audience. Users of the KEY series obviously have many more opportunities due to newer hardware and native Android powering the device, but my questions are mainly for the BB10 users out there.

The reason I ask is while I understand how niche it might be, I'm contemplating funding the development of an alternate app store and hosting additional services to prolong the life of these devices. Part of the appeal of my step "backwards" so to speak is of course the lack of apps/interconnectivity forced down our throats via Android and iOS, but if there's a way to provide a so-called "safe haven" for users out there with perfectly fine devices and give indie devs a home for their apps and projects, I'd like to. This of course all depends on demand for such services. With Blackberry pulling a Microsoft and crippling services like AppWorld, I'd like to find a way to keep the party going as long as possible.

Any input or thoughts are welcome here or feel free to drop me a line via BBM (PIN below.)

Cheers,

-Clay
PIN 335f9431

[conite]

The reason I ask is while I understand how niche it might be, I'm contemplating funding the development of an alternate app store and hosting additional services to prolong the life of these devices. Part of the appeal of my step "backwards" so to speak is of course the lack of apps/interconnectivity forced down our throats via Android and iOS, but if there's a way to provide a so-called "safe haven" for users out there with perfectly fine devices and give indie devs a home for their apps and projects, I'd like to. This of course all depends on demand for such services. With Blackberry pulling a Microsoft and crippling services like AppWorld, I'd like to find a way to keep the party going as long as possible.

Any input or thoughts are welcome here or feel free to drop me a line via BBM (PIN below.)

Cheers,

-Clay
PIN 335f9431

There are other members/developers here recently looking at file repositories and initiatives. You may wish to contact them so you don't end up wasting effort on duplicating what's being done already.

/blackberry-10-os-f269/breathing-new-life-into-bb10-1184578/

/blackberry-10-apps-f274/new-world-apps-1184672/

I have gathered some native apps on a spreadsheet here myself with the help of other contributors:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...aBQ/edit#gid=0

The issue is that very few developers are still left, and most calls to them to release their apps have gone unanswered.

As you are also aware, apart from sideloading, there is no way to install a bar file on a BB10 device without giving full device access to a 3rd party via VPN.

There are a couple of native apps being developed too:

/blackberry-10-apps-f274/bird10-native-app-twitter-1178312/

/blackberry-10-apps-f274/bbtube-introducing-new-youtube-client-bb-10-a-1184096/

The fact is there are likely fewer than 100k BB10 users left, and many of them dual-carry for their app needs anyway.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Funding? I can see spending a few weekends working on hobbies... but I don't see investing in the future of a product that depends on the support of a company that isn't doing all that well. BlackBerry Ltd is cutting cost everywhere they can in order to survive.

[playfoot]

I see myself continuing until I can no longer continue. For me, to date I have seen no compelling reason to add my tech to the churn and ask the developing world to accept our garbage for dangerous recycling (I have seen firsthand the mountains of IT waste).

Daily I require a solid email, text and phone, with a smidgeon of internet for effectively newspapers, maps, etc.

In general I use my tech for years longer than most people I know. Note, for my needs, when it becomes limiting I do upgrade (if I can't add SSD, etc). At the time of upgrade, I tend to purchase more expensive, longer warranty and a product line that has history and stability. So think TV made in Japan, maxed out high-end laptop to be used for 5 or more years, etc. 9983's and Q's at date of issue still going strong.

This is just for me.

[GordH]

My Passports both failed to connect to the Network a couple of weeks ago. Obviously not a coincidence. Got a new SIM and am now using my Classic. What keeps me here? I don't wish to share my private information with every Tom, **** & Harry of the cellphone app world. That and Blackberry Blend, which for no discernible reason wasn't offered for the Android BBs. I have a brand new Key2 sitting here if I need it, but as long as Blend works I'm staying with BB10.

So, would anyone like to speculate on why a program as unique and useful as Blend was not offered for the android phones?

Having read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" I know exactly how BB is being led up to the edge of the cliff before the final shove, but for those who think the business world isn't that dirty and ruthless, let's hear your best effort.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

My Passports both failed to connect to the Network a couple of weeks ago. Obviously not a coincidence. Got a new SIM and am now using my Classic. What keeps me here? I don't wish to share my private information with every Tom, **** & Harry of the cellphone app world. That and Blackberry Blend, which for no discernible reason wasn't offered for the Android BBs. I have a brand new Key2 sitting here if I need it, but as long as Blend works I'm staying with BB10.

So, would anyone like to speculate on why a program as unique and useful as Blend was not offered for the android phones?

Having read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" I know exactly how BB is being led up to the edge of the cliff before the final shove, but for those who think the business world isn't that dirty and ruthless, let's hear your best effort.

Money..... Chen was still dealing with having to balance BlackBerry's declining revenues with their operational costs. There were plans for Blend on Android, but first they needed to get a product to market with the least amount of cost to the company. If the PRIV and future devices had sold better.... I think Blend would have come.

It's a problem that has plagued Chen from the beginning.... it takes money to make money. And while a CEO is allowed to spend money on buying a company for the opportunities it might bring. It's another thing for him to give R&D more money to better develop existing products, as that is an operational cost. Lack of R&D spending is slowly strangling BlackBerry's software offerings....

[conite]

My Passports both failed to connect to the Network a couple of weeks ago. Obviously not a coincidence. Got a new SIM and am now using my Classic. What keeps me here? I don't wish to share my private information with every Tom, **** & Harry of the cellphone app world. That and Blackberry Blend, which for no discernible reason wasn't offered for the Android BBs. I have a brand new Key2 sitting here if I need it, but as long as Blend works I'm staying with BB10.

So, would anyone like to speculate on why a program as unique and useful as Blend was not offered for the android phones?

Having read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" I know exactly how BB is being led up to the edge of the cliff before the final shove, but for those who think the business world isn't that dirty and ruthless, let's hear your best effort.

The cloud (along with desktop clients) was serving the other platforms well, so Blend was introduced as a stop-gap for BB10 users. It was hardly used and was quickly dropped.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

The cloud (along with desktop clients) was serving the other platforms well, so Blend was introduced as a stop-gap for BB10 users. It was hardly used and was quickly dropped.

I'm sure if more companies supported BlackBerry Devices or BlackBerry Software in 2014... it would have been a hit for business users. Blend was great for those of us that were tied to our PC and had the "rights" to install it.

But it's like in 2014 BlackBerry wasn't aware there was a cloud....

[johnb_xp]

I used to always chase the next big thing and look in awe at new devices, but my Classic did everything I needed it to, and did a good job at that. Devices have reached a point, for me, where I don't feel the need to upgrade anymore. I was using social media less for sure on my Classic, and didn't take it out as much as my friends when we went out. When I needed it, I could quickly send out texts or call someone with a hardware phone button. Only recently, my university has relied heavily on video calling and apps I can't use my Classic for so I switched to a KEY2. I still miss the smoothness of navigating BB10 with gestures, but the KEY2 is much faster and I don't plan on switching devices any time soon.

On BB10 I was able to disable granular permissions like clipboard access, even on android apps. I can't find that on my KEY2, just camera, microphone, location. Seemed more secure.

[GordH]

Money..... Chen was still dealing with having to balance BlackBerry's declining revenues with their operational costs. There were plans for Blend on Android, but first they needed to get a product to market with the least amount of cost to the company. If the PRIV and future devices had sold better.... I think Blend would have come.

It's a problem that has plagued Chen from the beginning.... it takes money to make money. And while a CEO is allowed to spend money on buying a company for the opportunities it might bring. It's another thing for him to give R&D more money to better develop existing products, as that is an operational cost. Lack of R&D spending is slowly strangling BlackBerry's software offerings....

Really? How much is Chen paid? How hard would Blend for Android have been? Considering other puny software builders have created substitutes for it, does anyone believe BB couldn't have put it out if they chose to, for minimal cost?!

Do you really believe that, or is that just the "Party Line"?

[GordH]

The cloud (along with desktop clients) was serving the other platforms well, so Blend was introduced as a stop-gap for BB10 users. It was hardly used and was quickly dropped.

"Hardly used"? I don't think so, I use it every damn day. Who wants to hunt and peck around on some phone's little screen when they can keep all their texts, emails, contacts, calendar etc. open on their laptop or desktop screen and use the keyboard and mouse, copy & paste etc. etc.?

What competing phones had or have such a feature?

Anyway, it's so obvious it doesn't need explanation.

Or how about why the backup was no longer as selective in BB10, etc. etc.

So now the Android phones are going; of course, all the other schmucks are giving everything from their photos to their contact lists to their locations LOL to every two bit app maker who gets onto their phones, why allow BB users to keep all that juicy data to themesleves?

The sooner BB is gone, the sooner the proles will forget they ever had any privacy options.

[conite]

"Hardly used"? I don't think so, I use it every damn day. Who wants to hunt and peck around on some phone's little screen when they can keep all their texts, emails, contacts, calendar etc. open on their laptop or desktop screen and use the keyboard and mouse, copy & paste etc. etc.?

What competing phones had or have such a feature?

Anyway, it's so obvious it doesn't need explanation.

Or how about why the backup was no longer as selective in BB10, etc. etc.

So now the Android phones are going; of course, all the other schmucks are giving everything from their photos to their contact lists to their locations LOL to every two bit app maker who gets onto their phones, why allow BB users to keep all that juicy data to themesleves?

The sooner BB is gone, the sooner the proles will forget they ever had any privacy options.

You, and others (myself included), used Blend for a time, but it was discontinued because the overall uptake was negligible and it was no longer worth the development effort. It didn't bring anyone to the BB10 platform.

Using Outlook sync or Google sync, I have access to all of those things on my desktop - including my IM chats (Telegram) and SMS.

[GordH]

I used to always chase the next big thing and look in awe at new devices, but my Classic did everything I needed it to, and did a good job at that. Devices have reached a point, for me, where I don't feel the need to upgrade anymore. I was using social media less for sure on my Classic, and didn't take it out as much as my friends when we went out. When I needed it, I could quickly send out texts or call someone with a hardware phone button. Only recently, my university has relied heavily on video calling and apps I can't use my Classic for so I switched to a KEY2. I still miss the smoothness of navigating BB10 with gestures, but the KEY2 is much faster and I don't plan on switching devices any time soon.

On BB10 I was able to disable granular permissions like clipboard access, even on android apps. I can't find that on my KEY2, just camera, microphone, location. Seemed more secure.

As mentioned, my PP's both stopped working so I switched to my Classic. I am enjoying the "back" button greatly; so much better and faster than swiping the screen, something which requires two hands instead of one.

Anyone with half a brain could have seen that the BB10 phone that was needed was one which combined the best features of the PP and the Classic. The fact that users were forced to choose a smaller, lower resolution screen and camera(?) to keep the buttons, just shows that the decision making there was guided by something other than a desire to put the best product on the market.

[GordH]

You, and others (myself included), used Blend for a time, but it was discontinued because the overall uptake was negligible and it was no longer worth the development effort. It didn't bring anyone to the BB10 platform.

It didn't bring me, but it has KEPT me. And that's just a good for a business. To say it "didn't bring anyone to the BB10 platform" is obviously not true. People I have explained it to have often been very interested, even in 2020!

Of course, RIM/BB curiously decided not to publicize it, or just about anything else about their phones. Dumb or deliberate?

I doubt it would cost more than a couple of middle manager's salaries to maintain the platform, and if you haven't got anything new to offer your loyal customers, you might as well have the decency to at least help them continue using your "legacy" products.

[conite]

It didn't bring me, but it has KEPT me. And that's just a good for a business. To say it "didn't bring anyone to the BB10 platform" is obviously not true. People I have explained it to have often been very interested.

Of course, RIM/BB curiously decided not to publicize it, or just about anything else about their phones.

BB10 was turfed in the fall of 2013 after the disastrous launch. Everything that happened after that was simply to buy time and exhaust supplier commitments.

Current device owners (prior to EOL) only cost them money.

[GordH]

Sounds like you're speaking from the inside alright, and if that's the mentality, no wonder they're dying the death of a thousand cuts.

"Current users only cost them money" LOL

Where do you/they think future customers come from?

Screw your present customers and they won't be repeat customers, treat them well and they will.

Why do we buy Hondas, Toyotas etc.? Product quality and features of course. When a company offers a quality product at a sensible price and supports that product, it generates customer loyalty. Conversely, screw your customers and you end up like Detroit.

We're not quite a dumb as you think. When a product is already on the market, keeping it there doesn't cost a fraction of what it cost to get it there.

Sure, we'd all love to train our customers to obediently buy our new product every few years and ditch the old one, and many of them will, but trying to force them to is just stupid and ignores the human factor in brand loyalty. And if you can't produce a new product with enough features to attract most of your existing customers...well, Houston, you've got a problem in your R&D, not in your marketing!

It's not surprising we're debating this, the ethos you are touting is one of the reasons Western businesses are in such trouble overall. If you can't produce a vastly cheaper product like China can, you have to find other ways of generating customers and customer loyalty.

In Germany, Japan and now Korea, they understand all that, and in the first two countries workers have better pay and benefits than they do here in N.A. on average. But of course we waste billions paying executives ridiculous salaries, far higher than those in the really successful industrial economies I mentioned. And then they have the cheek to collect those salaries as they preside over the failure of the companies they are supposed to be leading. And if that wasn't good enough, there's the golden parachutes as well.

Leadership versus management. The fundamentals of human behaviour never change, despite what they may teach you in business school.

[joeldf]

Sounds like you're speaking from the inside alright, and if that's the mentality, no wonder they're dying the death of a thousand cuts.

"Current users only cost them money" LOL

Where do you/they think future customers come from?

Screw your present customers and they won't be repeat customers, treat them well and they will.

Why do we buy Hondas, Toyotas etc.? Product quality and features of course. When a company offers a quality product at a sensible price and supports that product, it generates customer loyalty. Conversely, screw your customers and you end up like Detroit.

We're not quite a dumb as you think. When a product is already on the market, keeping it there doesn't cost a fraction of what it cost to get it there.

Sure, we'd all love to train our customers to obediently buy our new product every few years and ditch the old one, and many of them will, but trying to force them to is just stupid and ignores the human factor in brand loyalty. And if you can't produce a new product with enough features to attract most of your existing customers...well, Houston, you've got a problem in your R&D, not in your marketing!

It's not surprising we're debating this, the ethos you are touting is one of the reasons Western businesses are in such trouble overall. If you can't produce a vastly cheaper product like China can, you have to find other ways of generating customers and customer loyalty.

In Germany, Japan and now Korea, they understand all that, and in the first two countries workers have better pay and benefits than they do here in N.A. on average. But of course we waste billions paying executives ridiculous salaries, far higher than those in the really successful industrial economies I mentioned. And then they have the cheek to collect those salaries as they preside over the failure of the companies they are supposed to be leading. And if that wasn't good enough, there's the golden parachutes as well.

Leadership versus management. The fundamentals of human behaviour never change, despite what they may teach you in business school.

The philosophy sounds great, but when it comes to business, it's purely profit driven and making your shareholders money.

Why do you think carriers offer great deals on new lines for new customers but offer nada once you're locked in. They don't care once they have you.

I'm not saying it's right, because it's not. And some companies do know that and are doing things differently. But it's reality most of the time and the reality that BlackBerry was going on several years ago.

That's all Conite is saying. You don't have to be an insider to simply know how things are. Just because you are not happy with it doesn't change the past.

[GordH]

The philosophy sounds great, but when it comes to business, it's purely profit driven and making your shareholders money.

Why do you think carriers offer great deals on new lines for new customers but offer nada once you're locked in. They don't care once they have you.

I'm not saying it's right, because it's not. And some companies do know that and are doing things differently. But it's reality most of the time and the reality that BlackBerry was going on several years ago.

That's all Conite is saying. You don't have to be an insider to simply know how things are. Just because you are not happy with it doesn't change the past.

We know it's profit-driven, it couldn't be anything else, the only question is do you have to have the profits this quarter to keep the fund managers happy, and of course your fellow execs who are partly compensated with shares/share price based incentives, or do you want to plan for a few years ahead? Matsu****a Electronics used to talk about their 100 year plan. The Japanese used to talk about how the war would last 100 years. (They didn't say much about that after 1945 of course LOL)

The carriers in NA are some of the greediest in the world, thanks to their political clout, and of course those same "market imperatives" based on our system of short term speculative investing, which not only disincentivizes longer term planning, but practically makes it impossible at times.

The "moral" situation hasn't improved since ENRON and isn't going to, but I'm not suggesting that customer relationships be considered for "moral" reasons, only for practical reasons of profitability.

"Mining the product" is where we're at now in N.A.

Stick in the fork.

[Laura Knotek]

It didn't bring me, but it has KEPT me. And that's just a good for a business. To say it "didn't bring anyone to the BB10 platform" is obviously not true. People I have explained it to have often been very interested, even in 2020!

Of course, RIM/BB curiously decided not to publicize it, or just about anything else about their phones. Dumb or deliberate?

I doubt it would cost more than a couple of middle manager's salaries to maintain the platform, and if you haven't got anything new to offer your loyal customers, you might as well have the decency to at least help them continue using your "legacy" products.

The reality is that most BBOS users never came to BB10 but went elsewhere, mainly to iOS and Android. I was an exception, since I took a detour to Windows Mobile in between BBOS and Android. However, most users were like me in that once we moved on from BBOS, we were done with any BlackBerry hardware.

[GordH]

The reality is that most BBOS users never came to BB10 but went elsewhere, mainly to iOS and Android. I was an exception, since I took a detour to Windows Mobile in between BBOS and Android. However, most users were like me in that once we moved on from BBOS, we were done with any BlackBerry hardware.

Yes, privacy concerns at that time were less understood and of course rarely discussed in the media - rarely discussed now for that matter!

So, RIM needed to work hard to bring back those lost customers. Probably they could have been given all their shiny toys and games inside a hard/software compartment/firewall of some kind that protected privacy. But BBM and other features were considered a security threat by various state actors, quite apart from competitors.

They also needed to advertise heavily, but instead they just sat on their hands... I guess we're all smarter than their execs were?

Windoze and their concern for your privacy are fully out of the closet now in Win10.

Privacy should matter even to those of us who have no skeletons in our closets, but frogs boil easily if you don't turn the heat up too fast.

[Laura Knotek]

Yes, privacy concerns at that time were less understood and of course rarely discussed in the media - rarely discussed now for that matter!

So, RIM needed to work hard to bring back those lost customers. Probably they could have been given all their shiny toys and games inside a hard/software compartment/firewall of some kind that protected privacy. But BBM and other features were considered a security threat by various state actors, quite apart from competitors.

They also needed to advertise heavily, but instead they just sat on their hands... I guess we're all smarter than their execs were?

Windoze and their concern for your privacy are fully out of the closet now in Win10.

Privacy should matter even to those of us who have no skeletons in our closets, but frogs boil easily if you don't turn the heat up too fast.

I simply found BB10 unsuitable for my needs for the same reason that I later found with Windows Mobile. Both lacked apps that were necessary to me. Privacy wasn't an issue of major importance to me. No amount of marketing would have brought me back to a platform that was unsuitable for my needs. I'm speaking for myself, not others. However, I'm not the only consumer who made a similar decision.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Really? How much is Chen paid? How hard would Blend for Android have been? Considering other puny software builders have created substitutes for it, does anyone believe BB couldn't have put it out if they chose to, for minimal cost?!

Do you really believe that, or is that just the "Party Line"?

Before the PRIV's lauch.... I don't think they had the manpower to do it. They were on a budget and they focused on what was "key" for the PRIV's lauch. Let's face it the Suite still needed some refinement even then. After the PRIV's lauch, say within a month... it didn't matter what it would have cost, it wasn't going to sell more phones.

As to cost.... One of the best I've seen AirDrop... came from a small developer that had about 40 employees, and that's all they do is AirDroid. And it's not Blend. Another I've used Phone Companion comes from some developer called Microsoft (again not Blend). Now some individual (or group) was trying to do one called FUSE... he never got out of beta and gave up after a year of part time development.

I don't know if Blend would have cost them $200K or a few million to develop. Whatever it was, the bean counters didn't see it being worth doing. Now they might have shopped the idea to TCL... but clearly they weren't willing to foot the bill.

Even minimal cost, is a cost....

[Laura Knotek]

Before the PRIV's lauch.... I don't think they had the manpower to do it. They were on a budget and they focused on what was "key" for the PRIV's lauch. Let's face it the Suite still needed some refinement even then. After the PRIV's lauch, say within a month... it didn't matter what it would have cost, it wasn't going to sell more phones.

As to cost.... One of the best I've seen AirDrop... came from a small developer that had about 40 employees, and that's all they do is AirDroid. And it's not Blend. Another I've used Phone Companion comes from some developer called Microsoft (again not Blend). Now some individual (or group) was trying to do one called FUSE... he never got out of beta and gave up after a year of part time development.

I don't know if Blend would have cost them $200K or a few million to develop. Whatever it was, the bean counters didn't see it being worth doing. Now they might have shopped the idea to TCL... but clearly they weren't willing to foot the bill.

Even minimal cost, is a cost....

Samsung also has Dex.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Samsung also has Dex.

Forgot that one, my S7 wasn't allowed to see it.

[conite]

Sounds like you're speaking from the inside alright, and if that's the mentality, no wonder they're dying the death of a thousand cuts.

"Current users only cost them money" LOL

Where do you/they think future customers come from?

Screw your present customers and they won't be repeat customers, treat them well and they will.

Why do we buy Hondas, Toyotas etc.? Product quality and features of course. When a company offers a quality product at a sensible price and supports that product, it generates customer loyalty. Conversely, screw your customers and you end up like Detroit.

We're not quite a dumb as you think. When a product is already on the market, keeping it there doesn't cost a fraction of what it cost to get it there.

Sure, we'd all love to train our customers to obediently buy our new product every few years and ditch the old one, and many of them will, but trying to force them to is just stupid and ignores the human factor in brand loyalty. And if you can't produce a new product with enough features to attract most of your existing customers...well, Houston, you've got a problem in your R&D, not in your marketing!

It's not surprising we're debating this, the ethos you are touting is one of the reasons Western businesses are in such trouble overall. If you can't produce a vastly cheaper product like China can, you have to find other ways of generating customers and customer loyalty.

In Germany, Japan and now Korea, they understand all that, and in the first two countries workers have better pay and benefits than they do here in N.A. on average. But of course we waste billions paying executives ridiculous salaries, far higher than those in the really successful industrial economies I mentioned. And then they have the cheek to collect those salaries as they preside over the failure of the companies they are supposed to be leading. And if that wasn't good enough, there's the golden parachutes as well.

Leadership versus management. The fundamentals of human behaviour never change, despite what they may teach you in business school.

What does your Venn diagram look like between device users and commercial asset tracking? How about device users and end-point enterprise software? And device users and embedded-auto? Hint: negligible overlap.