04-15-11 04:36 PM
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  1. 1magine's Avatar
    I don't usually chime in around here but this kinda reminds me of a message I got on bbm last night. A bbm buddy of mine (a girl) who switched to android decided that she missed the bb/bbm experience. After only a week back into using her BB I get this broadcast message:

    "Dear bbm peeps:

    I am sorry to be very misleading. I love the BB life! So addicted & will work my way to come back with a touch screen phone. But for now I must depart and go back to my LG optimus. The apps are better, the graphics, full websites, better youtube vids (David I watch ur dad every morning so that matters! LOL) and yeah its yeah. I am going to miss the way BB spoils me and have to limit my email boxes & manually enter my own calendar events -_- but there happens to be other efficiencies that I can bargain. So to give a real farewell until later... It's been real...
    Fyi... Darwin I cannot master kik!"

    This coming from a BB user for 7 plus years, your "typical" user. Rim needs to make a push, because these typical users are the same people that work in the companies that rim is betting on to continue to use they're platform/phones/tablets. A lot of companies are giving their employess the option as to what phone they use, I see a lot of people giving up they BBs for a iPhone or Android, just cause they can use it as their personal phones. The times of keeping a bb and purchasing a second personal phone are coming to an end, when u have the option of getting a phone (for free) that can meet both personal and professional needs. Idk of many people who would pass up a free phone. So in short, as much as I hate to say it, it seems that the timeline for rim is short. International sales are good and all but take care of home base first.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Another NYer who sees what I see and hear everyday. Large companies who have been fixated with BES nearly since its inception are allowing that infrastructure to pass in favor of letting people buy their own devices and securing them on an Exchange Server. My firm moves this summer to Exchange.
    04-11-11 01:36 PM
  2. 1magine's Avatar
    From this NYT article: "But it is increasingly common to find people who carry a BlackBerry for e-mail and an iPhone for everything else."

    This surprised me since I've never heard of this or seen anyone doing it. I have friends who have company-issued BBs that they have to use, but they also carry an iPhone as their personal preference, but who would choose to pay for two data plans so they could use BB for email and an iPhone for everything else? And who would put up with the hassle of dealing with two devices all the time? That claim seems a bit illogical and questionable to me.
    Take an MTA or LIRR train, or ride a NY subway. Its overwhelmingly out there. Firm pays for BB and data plan. I pay for my device and data plan. This is why so many firms seeing the same thing have realized they can save a fortune by not licensing and maintaining a BES infrastructure, and letting their employees [ay for the device they want.
    04-11-11 01:40 PM
  3. lnichols's Avatar
    Still, I was thinking more of whether RIM should try to appeal to each user's demographics and desired experiences rather than focusing on a target market they can serve well as the entire industry grows and brings in more and different customers. Should RIM remain communications focused for businesspeople or try to ensure awesome gaming for high-schoolers (sorry for the gross generalization for effect) or push to appeal to senior citizens with the easiest-to-use device (another generalization for effect)?

    The ongoing threat (both in perception and reality, I suspect) will be that many would argue that Apple and various Droid machines are already successfully appealing to, and serving, all of these different groups with single devices as evidenced by various brand name businesses moving from BB to other platforms for their corporate use. So should RIM try to become a "me-too" company that emulates all of iPhone's and Droid's features and functionalities so all of the phones displayed at Verizon's store are essentially the same user experience but with different brand names on the devices? If so, how much of RIM's current and well-established BB functionality should be abandoned in order to be more like the other brands? Should they give up the LED? Move primarily to touch screens? Accept shorter battery life? Possibly alienate and lose their longstanding users/customer base (which they're arguably already doing) in order to gain sales with a broader market?
    Well IMHO, the problem with RIM for a lot of people that are leaving, and a lot of people that are upset with what is available from RIM now is that basically they have done very little to the OS or the ecosystem, or really added to the capabilities of a BB device in general. While other companies have shown in the last 4 years that media, web, and apps are things that people want in a smart phone, RIM hasn't really put a lot of effort to adding these things to the phones. OS 6 added a better browser, but it doesn't match the competition, and they only released it on a few devices and some people didn't feel these devices were worth upgrading to. I think that if RIM released a phone that does everything the current BB devices do, added a great browsing experience, and gave the device enough memory/processor/gpu, and released some SDK's that would allow developers to really deliver some great apps, then the majority BB users would be fat, dumb and happy. I think that those of us that stuck it out will be happy with OS6.1 as it seems to be a huge jump over anything lately, and eventually with QNX, but in the end RIM will have had a very stagnant period where they lost an opportunity to grab a greater share of an exploding market.
    Last edited by lnichols; 04-11-11 at 01:53 PM.
    04-11-11 01:51 PM
  4. theruined's Avatar
    Well IMHO, the problem with RIM for a lot of people that are leaving, and a lot of people that are upset with what is available from RIM now is that basically they have done very little to the OS or the ecosystem, or really added to the capabilities of a BB device in general. While other companies have shown in the last 4 years that media, web, and apps are things that people want in a smart phone, RIM hasn't really put a lot of effort to adding these things to the phones. OS 6 added a better browser, but it doesn't match the competition, and they only released it on a few devices and some people didn't feel these devices were worth upgrading to. I think that if RIM released a phone that does everything the current BB devices do, added a great browsing experience, and gave the device enough memory/processor/gpu, and released some SDK's that would allow developers to really deliver some great apps, then the majority BB users would be fat, dumb and happy. I think that those of us that stuck it out will be happy with OS6.1 as it seems to be a huge jump over anything lately, and eventually with QNX, but in the end RIM will have had a very stagnant period where they lost an opportunity to grab a greater share of an exploding market.
    Minus S2 users ofc... But I'd have to agree just based off of the fact that I know a couple of app devs for android and bb that just say bb is a pita to dev for and you can't really expand much beyond the current infrastructure. Once OS 6.1 and 7 are in abundance and on newer, faster devices I think everything will rebound and it'll knock RIM back on track.

    The differences between a lot of phones out there are miniscule enough to be overlooked by the average user so I don't think there will be much retail market discrimination for RIM in the future - but 2012 does look very promising
    04-11-11 02:13 PM
  5. 1magine's Avatar
    I've said this before, and I'll say it again. OS 6.1 will be likely only find its way onto the 2011 roadmap of devices. If these devices alone don't sell as well as IOS and Android you are not going to see application development. Why develop for a handful of devices, which by the manufacturer's own admission is a 1 year stop gap that will no longer be supported? Seriously. Devices getting 6.1 will not get QNX. QNX for handhelds will be out in 2012. QNX, maybe- will support older BB OS if run in RIM's 'Sandbox' solution. But it is unlikely the 'Sandbox' makes it onto HHs. So the question is, develop for these devices or the universe of Android and IOS? Current Open GL development for BB tells me allot about what I can expect.
    04-11-11 02:23 PM
  6. howarmat's Avatar
    running old BB apps on a powerfully OS like QNX is a waste imo. yes that means everything must be rewritten for QNX but the quality will be much improved.
    04-11-11 02:28 PM
  7. anon1727506's Avatar
    I've said this before, and I'll say it again. OS 6.1 will be likely only find its way onto the 2011 roadmap of devices. If these devices alone don't sell as well as IOS and Android you are not going to see application development. Why develop for a handful of devices, which by the manufacturer's own admission is a 1 year stop gap that will no longer be supported? Seriously. Devices getting 6.1 will not get QNX. QNX for handhelds will be out in 2012. QNX, maybe- will support older BB OS if run in RIM's 'Sandbox' solution. But it is unlikely the 'Sandbox' makes it onto HHs. So the question is, develop for these devices or the universe of Android and IOS? Current Open GL development for BB tells me allot about what I can expect.
    Last couple of years that I have been around I've seen RIM repeatedly leave older devices out of their OS upgrade cycles. Whereas both Android and Apple go back to most of there earliest devices. There maybe a few features that are not available on the older device, but the basic OS and UI function just fine. Whereas RIM just leaves the older devices behind... if you are an owner of one of those devices (sometime by only a few months), it leave a bad taste in your mouth.

    So while 2012 maybe the year that RIM comes back... think that even with the new devices 2011 is going to be really tough on them (and the BB faithful).
    04-11-11 02:34 PM
  8. 1magine's Avatar
    Indeed. And QNX will most certainly get its fair share and then some of development attention. But 6.1? Who is going to devleop for 6.1? I just wonder what ramifications there will be if there is not a whole lot of 6.1 development.
    04-11-11 02:34 PM
  9. i7guy's Avatar
    Agree with Darwin. And the thing to remember is that when you can't change your product fast enought, what do you do? Well, you turn around and sell it to the person who's never had it before. To them, it won't matter if it's not cutting edge. It's like selling a crossbow to a jungle tribe who's used to using spears and blowdarts. They'll think it's amazing. No one (short of sheer sportsman choice) would pick a crossbow as a hunting weapon when a rifle is available. Same concept... This is why RIM went global with their platform. They needed to buy time and they saw that as their only opportunity.
    Heck of a decision, go global and rake in billions of dollars.

    Take your product lines that have been geared toward the busniness user and sell them all over the world.

    I wish my business was this type of failure.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-11-11 02:53 PM
  10. BBMINI's Avatar
    Heck of a decision, go global and rake in billions of dollars.

    Take your product lines that have been geared toward the busniness user and sell them all over the world.

    I wish my business was this type of failure.
    +1. Well said.
    04-11-11 02:57 PM
  11. valorian's Avatar
    04-11-11 03:11 PM
  12. BBMINI's Avatar
    Large companies who have been fixated with BES nearly since its inception are allowing that infrastructure to pass in favor of letting people buy their own devices and securing them on an Exchange Server. My firm moves this summer to Exchange.
    Definitely interesting. I've never known much about BES since I don't work at a big company, but I can see why companies would move that way if it saves them the ongoing cost of buying devices for employees and (I'm assuming from the little I know) paying RIM for some aspect of the BES service.

    As a related note, it's not just the accounting department that's pushing big companies to move from BB to something else. One of my neighbors is a tech guy for Bayer and he frequently works between the US, France and Germany. He's had a company-issued BB for years but has been pushing for Bayer to embrace, or at least allow, iPhones since for tech reasons that I know nothing about he thinks it would be a better device for their uses. I don't know whether he's made any progress in getting iPhones accepte there, but it was interesting to me that an IT guy would try to build iPhone momentum at a huge company like Bayer.
    Last edited by BBMINI; 04-11-11 at 03:18 PM.
    04-11-11 03:13 PM
  13. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    This was the part that caught my attention. Will QNX be the return on RIM or it's downfall?
    Either way you look at it, I think it's pretty easy to say that even if RIM went belly up in the mobile smartphone industry, they'd still remain alive in the other platforms that they've essentially bought into these past couple of years. I think what they've done is good in terms of diversification of company future, but not necessarily what they've done with their own platform itself. Perhaps it's something the CEOs saw coming and were worried enough to turn the company into one of those "Patent Owner" type companies who basically sit back and live off the kickbacks if for some reason their daily job focus fails them. QNX alone has so many roots in various technologies that that company alone brought upon a ton of yearly capital. The big question is... will all these smaller companies make enough to sustain the big owner at current employee base if for some reason the unforeseeable happens?.... But it's fairly unlikely this sort of thing would happen overnight. It usally takes a couple of years of failed prospects from a large company before it goes down.
    04-11-11 03:50 PM
  14. i7guy's Avatar
    Being a patent holding company isn't the end of the world. Nathan myhrvold has done very well with his.

    Unless rim totally screws up the next year or two they will continue to be a viable business.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-11-11 04:16 PM
  15. avt123's Avatar
    ^^ Why?

    Good article. RIM realizes they don't have to please the entire world. They have a solid use base that will keep coming back for more.
    04-11-11 04:55 PM
  16. The_Engine's Avatar
    On the same note, Jane & John Q could give a rats arse about Open GL, fast processors, firmware upgrades, games for smartphones, etc etc. Whereas people on these forums & others do. So while the latter may be disappointed with RIM's offerings, the former isn't and are quite content.
    How many downloads of angry birds were there? The knock off BB version made the front page of CB and the lack of angry birds sent Mr Crackberry himself into a rant.

    I would agree that not everyone wants to play quake on their phone, but everyone likes some form of game. Even BB recognizes this with brickbreaker and now pursuing contracts with EA.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-11-11 05:06 PM
  17. The_Engine's Avatar
    RIM put your in box in your pocket 10 years ago. Apple put the internet iin your pocket 5 years ago. RIM was not prepared for that and initially did not have any response. They can say what they like but they were stymied. While they have been playing catch up with the consumer offering (internet, apps, graphics) others have been catching up on the in box and now have a comparable offering.

    I think RIM is now looking to put the cloud in your pocket. And at the same time level the consumer playing field. 6.1 is a stop gap but a decent one. It is not their next great thing.

    We will know their future when we see QNX handhelds and what the new BB platform looks like. Terminal computing like what Motorola did with the Atrix could be a great diection. Seemlessly moving content from BB, to desktop, to tablet, to cloud. And QNX has done a lot with terminals.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by The_Engine; 04-12-11 at 08:08 AM.
    04-11-11 05:23 PM
  18. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    running old BB apps on a powerfully OS like QNX is a waste imo. yes that means everything must be rewritten for QNX but the quality will be much improved.

    Well, it means more value for money for apps that we already purchased it's good, if we have to buy them again it's bad
    04-12-11 07:45 AM
  19. howarmat's Avatar
    right you are going to have to repurchase some apps probably. i noticed that some xoom apps that are updated do not have to be bought again. they can be downloaded for a phone or xoom and work differently for each. I hope more devs take that approach
    04-12-11 07:50 AM
  20. The_Engine's Avatar
    That's the thing with the app markets. The apps are cheap and then people expect unlimited support. Realistically if a Dev has the rewrite the app or spend a lot of time on it then they should charge for that effort. Not every app sells enough that the upgrades can sensibly be free. Major updates like a new platform (QNX) or a tablet version are sensible to charge again for IMHO.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-12-11 08:14 AM
  21. jacmeister's Avatar
    RIM put your in box in your pocket 10 years ago. Apple put the internet iin your pocket 5 years ago. RIM was not prepared for that and initially did not have any response. They can say what they like but they were stymied. While they have been playing catch up with the consumer offering (internet, apps, graphics) others have been catching up on the in box and now have a comparable offering.

    I think RIM is now looking to put the cloud in your pocket. And at the same time level the consumer playing field. 6.1 is a stop gap but a decent one. It is not their next great thing.

    We will know their future when we see QNX handhelds and what the new BB platform looks like. Terminal computing like what Motorola did with the Atrix could be a great diection. Seemlessly moving content from BB, to desktop, to tablet, to cloud. And QNX has done a lot with terminals.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Good post Engine, RIM are coming round to the idea of the cloud and Protect is a way of demonstrating their acceptance of this, yeah we know that 6.1 will hold us over until QNX on hhs next year, but my PB will more than make up this in the short term.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-12-11 08:39 AM
  22. i7guy's Avatar
    RIM put your in box in your pocket 10 years ago. Apple put the internet iin your pocket 5 years ago. RIM was not prepared for that and initially did not have any response. They can say what they like but they were stymied. While they have been playing catch up with the consumer offering (internet, apps, graphics) others have been catching up on the in box and now have a comparable offering.

    I think RIM is now looking to put the cloud in your pocket. And at the same time level the consumer playing field. 6.1 is a stop gap but a decent one. It is not their next great thing.

    We will know their future when we see QNX handhelds and what the new BB platform looks like. Terminal computing like what Motorola did with the Atrix could be a great diection. Seemlessly moving content from BB, to desktop, to tablet, to cloud. And QNX has done a lot with terminals.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Everything goes around in cycles, I'm not a big "cloud" fan. But what I hope QNX will accomplish is allow for companies to quickly, efficiently, develop and manage hand-held apps. Should be no more difficult than developing a VB app, or using an html generator to develop web apps. That would be a real win for RIM.
    04-12-11 08:56 AM
  23. jvic31's Avatar
    I call that bull****
    I don't. Jim and Mike have become a cancer within the company. RIM's path under their leadership will be interesting for all the wrong reasons.

    Customers and stock-holders deserve better.
    04-12-11 01:57 PM
  24. avt123's Avatar
    Well, it means more value for money for apps that we already purchased it's good, if we have to buy them again it's bad
    I bet QNX apps will be cheaper than BB OS apps. Just like iOS and Android. Many of the same apps are free or cheaper on the other platforms. If QNX is as easy to develop for as RIM is saying, I can see the trend spreading to QNX App World.
    04-12-11 02:08 PM
  25. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I bet QNX apps will be cheaper than BB OS apps. Just like iOS and Android. Many of the same apps are free or cheaper on the other platforms. If QNX is as easy to develop for as RIM is saying, I can see the trend spreading to QNX App World.
    There's no such thing as free apps unless they come directly from the manufacturer, you're either data mined or served ads.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-12-11 02:15 PM
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