05-14-12 09:25 AM
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  1. Has.89's Avatar
    Hello guys.
    I need help please, I'm using blackberry in Denmark and my service provider company is 3 Mobile. Can they see what i send or recieve through BBM or the msn messenger?
    Please help
    05-13-12 11:03 AM
  2. boldkeyboardholic's Avatar
    whats the reason you asking?

    Did you do "bad" things on it?

    I would they due to patriot act the US goverment could get the information if RIM does store your messages on their server. I doubt anybody is interested in your IMs though. Unless you are already under surveillance

    When RIM has no Servers in Denmark it should not be possible to get the BBMs.
    (as the servers are in UK and UK is not known for good data privacy (in my opinion) we are not much better then using a non encrytped service)
    05-13-12 11:13 AM
  3. OniBerry's Avatar
    No, they cannot see what you send and receive via BBM.
    05-13-12 11:15 AM
  4. Atentozedten's Avatar
    Yep as the others said..they can't snoop thru you BB related data...but just stop doing bad things anyways :-P ...live a legit life bro...Just Kidding hehe!

    Sent from my Tool, not the 'Toy'
    05-13-12 11:50 AM
  5. jafobabe's Avatar
    05-13-12 01:30 PM
  6. jafobabe's Avatar
    Dup post... sorry
    05-13-12 01:30 PM
  7. OniBerry's Avatar
    That thread is asking if a company can ready BBM messages sent through BES.

    This OP is asking is his Service Provider can read his BBM messages. Two different issues, with two different answers.
    Last edited by Oniberry; 05-13-12 at 04:47 PM.
    05-13-12 01:48 PM
  8. hornlovah's Avatar
    Hello guys.
    I need help please, I'm using blackberry in Denmark and my service provider company is 3 Mobile. Can they see what i send or recieve through BBM or the msn messenger?
    Please help
    Sure they can! BBMs sent via BIS are encrypted using an old and well-known TRIPLE-DES key that is present on every BlackBerry phone. If your service provider has cause to intercept your BBMs, they can read them. As far as other messaging apps go, it would be wise to assume messages are transmitted in plain text until you find out otherwise.
    05-13-12 02:22 PM
  9. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Sure they can! BBMs sent via BIS are encrypted using an old and well-known TRIPLE-DES key that is present on every BlackBerry phone. If your service provider has cause to intercept your BBMs, they can read them. As far as other messaging apps go, it would be wise to assume messages are transmitted in plain text until you find out otherwise.
    No they can't, why do you think governments around the world were threatening to block BB?
    05-13-12 04:01 PM
  10. hornlovah's Avatar
    No they can't, why do you think governments around the world were threatening to block BB?
    I agree that the press coverage was not accurate and that some governments did not have a good understanding of BIS BBM encryption, but there is a metric ton of accurate info on the web too. You might want to start here: The Danger of Fetishizing BlackBerry Messenger Security | Technology, Thoughts, and Trinkets. A few other resources: The truth about BlackBerry’s encryption | memeburn and FAQ: What Communication Is Encrypted on Your BlackBerry - BerryReview.
    05-13-12 04:21 PM
  11. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I agree that the press coverage was not accurate and that some governments did not have a good understanding of BIS BBM encryption, but there is a metric ton of accurate info on the web too. You might want to start here: The Danger of Fetishizing BlackBerry Messenger Security | Technology, Thoughts, and Trinkets. A few other resources: The truth about BlackBerrys encryption | memeburn and FAQ: What Communication Is Encrypted on Your BlackBerry - BerryReview.
    That's all "potentially" this or potentially that, nothing concrete. In theory it could be done but a Blackberry PIN cannot be spoofed on the BIS network, all PINs are unique and only one can exist on the network. If you have access to the NOC then you could, but you're not gonna a pull a BBM out of the air and decrepit it.
    05-13-12 04:29 PM
  12. hornlovah's Avatar
    That's all "potentially" this or potentially that, nothing concrete. In theory it could be done but a Blackberry PIN cannot be spoofed on the BIS network, all PINs are unique and only one can exist on the network. If you have access to the NOC then you could, but you're not gonna a pull a BBM out of the air and decrepit it.
    Wow! You read those documents quickly. It's easy to intercept BBMs if you are the service provider like the original poster asked. If they receive a wiretap order, they'll archive these communications so they can be decrypted using the global key and/or they could simply forward these messages to another pin for real time monitoring.
    05-13-12 04:43 PM
  13. OniBerry's Avatar
    The OP asked if his provider could monitor his BBM messages, not ask if they can be intercepted or subject to wiretapping order (which still means the carrier cannot see the message, as they would be archived and forwarded* depending on where you lived or who your carrier was)

    Let's not play the what if game and try to stay on topic.
    05-13-12 05:01 PM
  14. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Wow! You read those documents quickly. It's easy to intercept BBMs if you are the service provider like the original poster asked. If they receive a wiretap order, they'll archive these communications so they can be decrypted using the global key and/or they could simply forward these messages to another pin for real time monitoring.
    LOL, no they cannot, remember the London riots? RIM UK had to provide the BBMs afterwards for prosecution. There is no real time BBM monitoring.
    05-13-12 05:02 PM
  15. hornlovah's Avatar
    The OP asked if his provider could monitor his BBM messages, not ask if they can be intercepted or subject to wiretapping order (which still means the carrier cannot see the message, as they would be archived and forwarded* depending on where you lived or who your carrier was)

    Let's not play the what if game and try to stay on topic.
    The original poster asked, "Can they see what i send or recieve through BBM or the msn messenger?" The answer is yes if they choose to or are compelled to do so.
    05-13-12 05:19 PM
  16. hornlovah's Avatar
    LOL, no they cannot, remember the London riots? RIM UK had to provide the BBMs afterwards for prosecution. There is no real time BBM monitoring.
    Again, poor reporting or misinformed government officials. An assumption that a service provider could not forward messages sent or received on their own network is false.
    05-13-12 05:23 PM
  17. Xopher's Avatar
    Anything over BIS, always assume that the carrier can retrieve the messages in one fashion or another. Also, assume the government can request unencrypted communications (usually through court order). Just because it is encrypted doesn't mean it can't be deciphered.

    Anything over BES, the carrier probably doesn't have access to anything other than SMS, since the encryption keys are created on the BES. This was one of the main sticking points with some countries, since the governments keep asking RIM for the security keys and RIM doesn't have them. Even so, assume the corporation can read anything sent over their BES, and the government can subpoena them for the data.
    05-13-12 09:33 PM
  18. trsbbs's Avatar
    Hello guys.

    I need help please, I'm using blackberry in Denmark and my service provider company is 3 Mobile. Can they see what i send or recieve through BBM or the msn messenger?

    Please help

    MSN maybe. BBM yes and no. They can see the packet but are not able to decrypt it.

    In short they cannot read the bbm message as it is encrypted and RIM has the key.

    Tim

    Sent from my BlackBerry
    05-13-12 11:22 PM
  19. blue_k's Avatar
    As the others have said, no they can't. They could potentially intercept and store them, but AFAIK no carrier as the encryption key, only RIM. But without legal reason, they couldn't decrypt them, and if they did, you would have a nice invasion of privacy case. The reason a lot of countries have complained about the encryption, is because they can't snoop without a legal reason, and the problem is how do you get a reason if the illegal activity is happening through BBM, and you don't know what the BBM's say?
    Last edited by blue_k; 05-14-12 at 01:29 AM.
    05-14-12 01:26 AM
  20. hornlovah's Avatar
    I'm having a difficult time understanding the "no they can't replies." Refer to your service providers acceptable use policy or terms of service. In it you will find types of messages they deem unacceptable. Then you will find a clause that states that while they are under no obligation to monitor content, they may monitor the content of any materials you distribute or access through their network. You agree to that upfront.

    We know that BIS BBMs use a shared encryption key present on all BlackBerry phones. If you've done your homework, you know that no PIN verification is performed, so BIS BBMs can be decrypted on any BlackBerry phone. We know that your service provider can access message packets, but we don't know how long they are retained. Even if you believe that your service provider does not already possess the encryption key to facilitate abuse investigations, it is unrealistic to assume that they cannot obtain the key, or simply forward the messages to another BlackBerry device for decryption.
    05-14-12 04:45 AM
  21. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I'm having a difficult time understanding the "no they can't replies." Refer to your service providers acceptable use policy or terms of service. In it you will find types of messages they deem unacceptable. Then you will find a clause that states that while they are under no obligation to monitor content, they may monitor the content of any materials you distribute or access through their network. You agree to that upfront.

    We know that BIS BBMs use a shared encryption key present on all BlackBerry phones. If you've done your homework, you know that no PIN verification is performed, so BIS BBMs can be decrypted on any BlackBerry phone. We know that your service provider can access message packets, but we don't know how long they are retained. Even if you believe that your service provider does not already possess the encryption key to facilitate abuse investigations, it is unrealistic to assume that they cannot obtain the key, or simply forward the messages to another BlackBerry device for decryption.
    You're talking theory, in reality it's far more complex than that. For a start the NOC might be in a different country and international laws could apply. IF authorities have a warrant I'm sure they go straight to RIM, not the carrier. BBMs are stored by RIM for a limited time and they can provide printouts but I'm 99.9% sure the carrier doesn't store them, they just pass trough the network.

    Think of BIS and BES as a tunnel trough the carrier's network where BBMs pass trough not only encrypted but also compressed, the carrier's network is the first step in a long chain to the NOC.
    hornlovah likes this.
    05-14-12 05:24 AM
  22. hornlovah's Avatar
    Thank you for your reply belfastdispatcher! I understand your position better. I agree that any lawful access requests for BIS BBMs would go through RIM. Still, I remain unconvinced that service providers do not have the ability to monitor and read incoming and outgoing BBMs on their own network. Older messages - no, but once a complaint is received - yes. You can imagine the number of spam, harassment, hate speech, etc... complaints received by service providers. These providers will absolutely ensure that their network and interests are protected, and RIM does not want to get involved in retrieving someone's ugly BBMs to their ex. I bet the service providers already have the tools necessary to monitor and investigate these types of complaints.
    05-14-12 06:43 AM
  23. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Thank you for your reply belfastdispatcher! I understand your position better. I agree that any lawful access requests for BIS BBMs would go through RIM. Still, I remain unconvinced that service providers do not have the ability to monitor and read incoming and outgoing BBMs on their own network. Older messages - no, but once a complaint is received - yes. You can imagine the number of spam, harassment, hate speech, etc... complaints received by service providers. These providers will absolutely ensure that their network and interests are protected, and RIM does not want to get involved in retrieving someone's ugly BBMs to their ex. I bet the service providers already have the tools necessary to monitor and investigate these types of complaints.
    You might think Pakistan and India doesn't have the know how to do it but if UK with a NOC in their back yard can't do it then what makes you think a carrier can. By definition if a carrier could do it the law can do it too trough them.

    But they can't, why else would the UK government call RIM in front of them to be questioned after the London riots?

    Search it on youtube, Steven Bates, RIM UK managing director is answering the questions.

    While in theory anything is possible, in practice it's probably close to impossible.

    Do you even know how much data goes trough the NOC?

    "In a typical month, the unassuming two-storey building in Slough sees up to 20 petabytes, or 20m gigabytes, pass through it."
    05-14-12 07:11 AM
  24. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    By the way, BBM has built I protection from spam and harassment, you can easily block the user and they'll never contact you again.

    And all BBs have a firewall that can block PIN messages.

    There's absolutely no danger of spam or harassment on BBM.

    It's one of the reasons it's so popular with young people.
    05-14-12 07:16 AM
  25. hornlovah's Avatar
    I understand the difficulty of retrieving lawful access requests, especially when mass criminal action is involved and/or suspected. It was painfully obvious during RIM's discussions with various governments that officials did not feel they would be able to obtain the information they want in the timeframe expected. Still, we are discussing BIS BBMs that pass through a particular provider's network. PINs are not encrypted, and the content encryption key is known. If that provider has cause to monitor an individual's BBMs due to a nuisance type complaint, it is my belief that they have the tools and ability to do it. Service providers set up data wiretaps frequently - they have that knowledge. It makes zero business sense for RIM to get involved in low-level retrieval or monitoring requests.

    I also know how easy it is to block a user. If they send me spam or something rude and crude, they get blocked. If someone sent a threat or some nasty illegal porno, then I would do my best to initiate one of those low-level complaints I referenced earlier.

    BTW, I was unable to to locate the video you mentioned, and I would like to see it. I'll look again later, but if you run across it, I would appreciate a link.
    Last edited by hornlovah; 05-14-12 at 08:40 AM. Reason: Adding third paragraph
    05-14-12 08:36 AM
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