03-25-11 09:40 AM
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  1. sf49ers's Avatar
    People are confusing Kernel with the actual BB OS and both are different folks, the heart of BB OS is based on virtual machine architecture and that is not going to change until QNX makes head way may be in 2012 but until then it is what it is in OS 6. The point here however is migration of the BB OS 6.0 code to QNX Kernel. Even after the migration the code and the functionality of the BB OS will be the exact same as in OS 6 but the new underlying Kernel will just enhance its performance as it supports things like latest ARM processor instruction set and thus making a way for it to adapt latest processor architectures and add abstraction to new low level resources like GPU (OpelGL) etc. This will also help them leverage the features baked into the processor like System-on-Chip(SOC) these days have everything integrated into the processor chip like radio, wifi, bluetooth, GPU, hardware accelerator etc and one can leverage them only if your Kernel supports them.

    Also I was reading the documentation on Qualcom chip and it seem to be more advanced chip than many think with the radio, wifi, gps and bluetooth built into the processor (only chip to have radio integrated on SoC), that is going to make the phones a lot slimmer and it can already seen in the rumored dimensions of BB's scheduled this year. Even the GSM phones might sport the same Qualcom processor.
    Last edited by sf49ers; 02-03-11 at 06:01 PM.
    mahen915 and UrbanGlowCam like this.
    02-03-11 05:54 PM
  2. Shodan775's Avatar
    People are confusing Kernel with the actual BB OS and both are different folks, the heart of BB OS is based on virtual machine architecture and that is not going to change until QNX makes head way may be in 2012 but until then it is what it is in OS 6. The point here however is migration of the BB OS 6.0 code to QNX Kernel. Even after the migration the code and the functionality of the BB OS will be the exact same as in OS 6 but the new underlying Kernel will just enhance its performance as it supports things like latest ARM processor instruction set and thus making a way for it to adapt latest processor architectures and add abstraction to new low level resources like GPU (OpelGL) etc.
    That sounds more plausable.

    I was just checking out the QNX website and seeing the structure of the OS:

    QNX Neutrino RTOS
    02-03-11 05:59 PM
  3. The_Engine's Avatar
    [QUOTE=sf49ers;6020818]People are confusing Kernel with the actual BB OS and both are different folks, the heart of BB OS is based on virtual machine architecture and that is not going to change until QNX makes head way may be in 2012 but until then it is what it is in OS 6. The point here however is migration of the BB OS 6.0 code to QNX Kernel. Even after the migration the code and the functionality of the BB OS will be the exact same as in OS 6 but the new underlying Kernel will just enhance its performance as it supports things like latest ARM processor instruction set and thus making a way for it to adapt latest processor architectures and add abstraction to new low level resources like GPU (OpelGL) etc.

    /QUOTE]

    So then explain why they still need to figure out a JVM for the tablet OS. If 6.1 is the BB6 JVM running on qnx than they already have that no? Why go to market with legacy support if you actually have it?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-03-11 06:00 PM
  4. The_Engine's Avatar
    Well this could have been a choice RIM made rather than not having a completed Playbook OS. I think if the Playbook is wifi only, it will not have these native applications from the beginning (without pairing). For the 3G versions, it should have the same standalone BBM, email, calendar, etc. as the handsets.
    At a time where BB is courting app developers it would be foolish to openly fragment this way. They already have a bad rap for third party development and have spend a lot of effort to bring them into the fold. Thuq would be a very bad move from that communities perspective and would significantly delay adoption of these platforms by developers.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-03-11 06:04 PM
  5. MattyG27's Avatar
    The one thing I wanna point out is that, if any of you guys watched that PB video from today, the other PB that had working code for the accelerometer was covered around the outsides. The guy doing the demo was saying that's cause it had labeling on it that we weren't suppose to see. Well the logical guess would be that it was probably a PB labeled for one of the carriers.
    Which in turn probably means that they have a working PB with a working radio code stack in it. I've also saw recent PB pics of PB's that have a calendar and bbm icons on them and NO Blackberry folder. Which means that there is no device tethered to that PB, yet it has BBM on it is the most important icon I'd say.
    Therefore if they have working carrier PB's with intergrated native calendar, bbm and maybe an email client, that's pretty dam close to what they would need for a working phone OS. So I'm not sure why people are so set on no mobile QNX till 2012 or beyond, if 6.1 isn't already it??
    Look maybe they release the Wi-Fi PB now to hold people over and stop some of the bleeding and then come summer time they dump the Sprint, Verizon, Monaco, and Montana on the market with 4G and QNX running.
    I think something else usually drops in the summertime also, aahh can't think of it right now....? RIM might just have a big poker hand come summertime...
    02-03-11 06:33 PM
  6. UrbanGlowCam's Avatar
    At a time where BB is courting app developers it would be foolish to openly fragment this way. They already have a bad rap for third party development and have spend a lot of effort to bring them into the fold. Thuq would be a very bad move from that communities perspective and would significantly delay adoption of these platforms by developers.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Maybe. From what I've heard, developing for QNX is a lot more enjoyable than with the standard BBOS. I'm sure some big name developers are working on some great apps using the native code. Also, their new WebWorks will make it easier to bring apps to BBOS/PB Tablet OS/& other platforms.
    02-03-11 06:34 PM
  7. dutchtender's Avatar
    if QNX was part of 6.1 I would virtually guarantee that it would be twatted from on high by each CEO. Realize that QNX is about the only thing rimm has that they can "sell" as advanced and they would take every available opportunity to tout it if it were "so". they haven't touted. so it isn't "so".
    Last edited by dutchtender; 02-03-11 at 06:42 PM.
    02-03-11 06:36 PM
  8. howarmat's Avatar
    att has testing units supposedly so im not surprise about the possible branding and icons. Sprint should have them also by now if they are releasing in the spring
    02-03-11 06:40 PM
  9. sf49ers's Avatar
    So then explain why they still need to figure out a JVM for the tablet OS. If 6.1 is the BB6 JVM running on qnx than they already have that no? Why go to market with legacy support if you actually have it?
    1) In order for us to run BB OS apps on playbook then we need to port BB OS JVM to Playbook.
    2) The details are not yet out for Playbook, if they are supporting just BB JVM only or Android JVM or else supporting both
    3) Remember Java/JVM is not legacy but the the way RIM is doing things is legacy. Running complete OS as a JVM is bad idea but supporting Java is a good feature.

    Java as a OS is a bad idea because

    1) Difficult to emulate core OS functionality, RIM is late on some functionality because it has to shoe horn everything into the JVM which is a painful process, for example integrating webkit engine would have taken a toll on it's developers.
    2) A JVM loads and runs everything in a common space, meaning if there is a corrupt third party app that leaks memory and that could bog down the whole JVM and hence we are accustomed to battery pull inorder to restart the JVM.
    3) A JVM loads the process information on start-up and hence we need to reset the phone after an app installation.
    4) A JVM is not powerful than traditional OS like Linux, QNX, iOS etc as we trying to emulate the core OS in Java which is not the main purpose of Java


    Adding a Java support (JVM) brings many advantages like.

    1) Open source,write once run anywhere (promotes cross platform apps)
    2) More evolved technology and with many open source frameworks.
    3) More developers than any other technology out there
    4) Secured, Object oriented, multi-threaded
    5) Greater presence in the enterprise who are accustomed to building solutions in Java
    6) Best integration with web technologies like web services, HTML etc

    and many more
    02-03-11 06:49 PM
  10. UrbanGlowCam's Avatar
    1) In order for us to run BB OS apps on playbook then we need to port BB OS JVM to Playbook.
    2) The details are not yet out for Playbook, if they are supporting just BB JVM only or Android JVM or else supporting both
    3) Remember Java/JVM is not legacy but the the way RIM is doing things is legacy. Running complete OS as a JVM is bad idea but supporting Java is a good feature.

    Java as a OS is a bad idea because

    1) Difficult to emulate core OS functionality, RIM is late on some functionality because it has to shoe horn everything into the JVM which is a painful process, for example integrating webkit engine would have taken a toll on it's developers.
    2) A JVM loads and runs everything in a common space, meaning if there is a corrupt third party app that leaks memory and that could bog down the whole JVM and hence we are accustomed to battery pull inorder to restart the JVM.
    3) A JVM loads the process information on start-up and hence we need to reset the phone after an app installation.
    4) A JVM is not powerful than traditional OS like Linux, QNX, iOS etc as we trying to emulate the core OS in Java which is not the main purpose of Java


    Adding a Java support (JVM) brings many advantages like.

    1) Open source,write once run anywhere (promotes cross platform apps)
    2) More evolved technology and with many open source frameworks.
    3) More developers than any other technology out there
    4) Secured, Object oriented, multi-threaded
    5) Greater presence in the enterprise who are accustomed to building solutions in Java
    6) Best integration with web technologies like web services, HTML etc

    and many more
    WOW Great explanation for some of us non programmers...thank you! Hopefully we see them take the right route with the Playbook and BB handsets.
    02-03-11 06:56 PM
  11. waterloo888's Avatar
    Not sure why people are still so skeptical that BB 6.1 will be QNX devices? sf49ers is correct. I think many believe that RIM needs to come out and call the QNX smartphone "BB7" so as to distinguish that it's a brand new OS. My belief is that RIM will just treat 6.1 as a new iteration of the UI (add features, etc.) that happens to run on the best hardware (dual core, etc.). It's best to give users a feeling of an evolving platform rather than advertising it as some major leap forward that breaks all backward compatibility (look at how Palm and Windows Phone 7 are stuggling). You don't want to confuse your customers and alienate your dev base! Some have suggested that the Qualcomm 1.2GHz is some "custom built single core solution for RIM". Look, RIM is great, but QCOM isn't going to custom build for RIM when AAPL and Android (50 million annual units) are taking the same hardware, that's just not realistic. The world is moving to multi-core processors. You think RIM is going to choose to stay behind Apple and Google?? Bottom line is that the Monaco processor is dual core, and dual core means QNX.

    Just to clear up some confusion, QNX just provides the underlying microkernel and OS. On top of QNX, RIM will support multiple development environments: (i) QNX native C++ ("on the metal", for gaming, etc.), (ii) Adobe AIR (this is what they've been pushing with Playbook), (iii) WebWorks (which are Web apps, cross platform coded in HTML5/CSS/Javascript) (iv) some type of java runtime environment (JVM) to support all of the apps that currently run on Blackberry 6.0 and below. This means that QNX will ensure full backwards compatibility. The Playbook that will launch next month will not support java, so that device itself won't be backwards compatible, but it will certainly come before the year is done. None of this is me guessing - RIM has said this all publicly! The big speculation is that RIM would bring the Dalvik JVM on top of the QNX OS as well, which would allow BB users to download and run Android apps. This can all be done as QNX is extremely modular and sandbox all of these different environments.
    02-03-11 08:07 PM
  12. mahen915's Avatar
    Some have suggested that the Qualcomm 1.2GHz is some "custom built single core solution for RIM". Look, RIM is great, but QCOM isn't going to custom build for RIM when AAPL and Android (50 million annual units) are taking the same hardware, that's just not realistic.
    I also want to point out that the only 1.2Ghz Processor that Qualcomm makes is a dual-core. Leaked Storm3 specs show a 1.2ghz processor.
    02-03-11 08:11 PM
  13. howarmat's Avatar
    i HIGHLY doubt that any processor is dual core. this was discussed in another thread with me and a couple others.

    1) either the slides are mistaken and its actually 1ghz
    2) they "improved" the newest qualcomm processor to get 1.2 ghz instead of the 1 ghz which has been backed up by a few documents on qualcomms site
    3) they are actually suing the dual core processor in the phones

    number #3 is a huge longshot that i dont see til mid next year at earliest
    02-03-11 08:19 PM
  14. mahen915's Avatar
    If they "overclocked" it to 1.2ghz, it makes no sense for them to have gone with a lower capacity battery. I know RIM is good with battery management, but I don't think they're THAT good.

    Therefore, we can rule out option 2 and go with either 1, or 3.
    02-03-11 08:29 PM
  15. The_Engine's Avatar
    if QNX was part of 6.1 I would virtually guarantee that it would be twatted from on high by each CEO. Realize that QNX is about the only thing rimm has that they can "sell" as advanced and they would take every available opportunity to tout it if it were "so". they haven't touted. so it isn't "so".
    This...

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-03-11 08:34 PM
  16. UrbanGlowCam's Avatar
    First off, good points waterloo888 and howarmat.

    If they "overclocked" it to 1.2ghz, it makes no sense for them to have gone with a lower capacity battery. I know RIM is good with battery management, but I don't think they're THAT good.

    Therefore, we can rule out option 2 and go with either 1, or 3.
    You're right, except that only BGR stated those were the battery specs. Notice how the leaked CDMA slides lined up with everything BGR was saying except for battery?

    So my opinion is RIM WILL be using a 1.2GHz processor but the battery is still up in the air as I don't believe BGRs was correct....unless they have some amazing battery tech. I trust the leaked CDMA slides over BGRs info.

    Still kinda doubting dual core but I'd love to be surprised.
    02-03-11 08:40 PM
  17. howarmat's Avatar
    If they "overclocked" it to 1.2ghz, it makes no sense for them to have gone with a lower capacity battery. I know RIM is good with battery management, but I don't think they're THAT good.

    Therefore, we can rule out option 2 and go with either 1, or 3.
    i dont know if its overclocked or the orig specs before the chip was finish was 1 ghz but after done and tested 1.2 was competely doable without overclock. there are descrepencies in the documentation on the qualcomm site.
    02-03-11 08:43 PM
  18. mahen915's Avatar
    i dont know if its overclocked or the orig specs before the chip was finish was 1 ghz but after done and tested 1.2 was competely doable without overclock. there are descrepencies in the documentation on the qualcomm site.
    Hmm, I'll have to take a look at it. I'm clouded by wishful thinking, haha
    02-03-11 08:58 PM
  19. The_Engine's Avatar
    WOW Great explanation for some of us non programmers...thank you! Hopefully we see them take the right route with the Playbook and BB handsets.
    Urban, I am taking your quote 'cause sf's is just too long.

    Not sure that was such a good explanation. When qnx was acquired we talked a lot about all of this. I am pretty sure that the BB OS kernel is not a JVM. We don't know what the kernel is coded in. The application and interface layer is a JVM. Android functions the same way. The kernel is Linux based and the apps run on a JVM. Also at that time it was pretty clear that RIM could do exactly what you all think they did in 6.1 which is run the same JVM over qnx. It would take some work, but it would reap all the benefits of qnx except that most people feel that BB OS JVM is pretty bad.

    So what I am getting at is that the BB os is not a jvm. It uses one to run apps the same as android does. Further it makes very little sense for rim to take a bad JVM and park it on qnx and call it 6.1. The poor JVM would make qnx look bad. Even further, if they had done this they wouldn't be looking at dalvik as their JVM to run legacy BB apps. They would already have one and dalvik may hold improvements but it wouldn't be the day 1 solution if they were so going to market with the BB JVM sitting on QNX as well. That just doesn't make sense.

    And forget about the technical aspects, look at behavior. I just don't think RIM would call it 6.1, and not mention QNX at all. They can't stop taking about QNX on the playbook. To the point that most times it is referred to as QNX and not tablet os. If they were banging away at porting BB OS to the QNX kernel than when asked when QNX would appear on phones they could have had a more definitive answer than they gave because it would be far along into development.

    Rim bought QNX for all the right reasons and they are developing a platform for the next 10 years by their own admission. Playbook will be the first beta product on a qnx based os. Which makes sense because it let's people see it and understand it and attract dev`s without exposing their core base of customers to too much change. They also work all the kinks without pissing off their core customer base, which they can't afford to do now with a new product.

    I want 6.1 to be running on QNX as much as all of you. But I just don't think that is the case.

    We'll know for sure the first time some boots a 6.1 device. Anyone who has access to one, please pull the battery and let us know how long it takes to boot up. A few seconds mean QNX most likely. A few minutes, means BB OS 5 kernel.

    And besides all of this, if they pull off what was in the leaked slides as far as UI lag, etc. Than who care what the kernel is. That would be a damn fine user experience to me. Fast browser, fast, fluid UI, that has that BB efficiency, better apps, etc. Regardless of what the kernel is these sound like great devices.

    For me Sept is too late and no LTE is a deal breaker. Can't wait to play with them though. ; )

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-03-11 09:08 PM
  20. The_Engine's Avatar
    First off, good points waterloo888 and howarmat.



    You're right, except that only BGR stated those were the battery specs. Notice how the leaked CDMA slides lined up with everything BGR was saying except for battery?

    So my opinion is RIM WILL be using a 1.2GHz processor but the battery is still up in the air as I don't believe BGRs was correct....unless they have some amazing battery tech. I trust the leaked CDMA slides over BGRs info.

    Still kinda doubting dual core but I'd love to be surprised.
    As with the playbook where they were vocal about it being dual core, they would say it on those slides. Look at RIM's behavior. They sing from the mountaintops about QNX and the dual core chip in the PB.

    Why would they suddenly go hush hush, or refer to a dual core chip as just 1.2 ghz? They would say it was dual core.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-03-11 09:13 PM
  21. UrbanGlowCam's Avatar
    Good points The_Engine....I like this thread. Seems like everyone is contributing some good speculation vs. a buncha people coming in and talking out of their *** filling the thread with nonsense.

    Even further, if they had done this they wouldn't be looking at dalvik as their JVM to run legacy BB apps. They would already have one and dalvik may hold improvements but it wouldn't be the day 1 solution if they were so going to market with the BB JVM sitting on QNX as well. That just doesn't make sense.
    I took the dalvik to run BB/Android apps for the Playbook OS and not necessarily related to the BBOS for now.

    And forget about the technical aspects, look at behavior. I just don't think RIM would call it 6.1, and not mention QNX at all. They can't stop taking about QNX on the playbook. To the point that most times it is referred to as QNX and not tablet os. If they were banging away at porting BB OS to the QNX kernel than when asked when QNX would appear on phones they could have had a more definitive answer than they gave because it would be far along into development.
    True, but they haven't really officially announced much regarding the OS itself. Just a couple things relating to the application platform at Devcon Asia. Also, I think RIM was heavy on the "QNX" announcements relating to the Playbook because it is pretty much a full QNX environment. On the other hand, the 6.1 is just rumored to have QNX as the underlying kernel. So it's not exactly the same comparison.

    And besides all of this, if they pull off what was in the leaked slides as far as UI lag, etc. Than who care what the kernel is. That would be a damn fine user experience to me. Fast browser, fast, fluid UI, that has that BB efficiency, better apps, etc. Regardless of what the kernel is these sound like great devices.
    Exactly what I've been saying. Who cares what kernel they're using as long as it works right and the end user gets the user experience they are looking for.

    I can understand though. I think everyone just wants to hear as much QNX as possible without the words BBOS. You think QNX, you think Playbook OS and all of the great, modern, next-gen things coming with it. One thinks BBOS or JVM, they think slow, old, legacy software. Now I'm not a programmer, but I don't think we should think that way and generalize. It's hard for many to believe RIM won't fail from what they've seen in 2010. But I'm hopeful and think they'll make some huge strides this year and we'll see in the next couple of months.

    Playbook is already off to a great start and is looking like one of the best OSs out there. If it's affiliated with Blackberry we can expect great things in the coming months/years....it's that simple.
    02-03-11 09:38 PM
  22. sf49ers's Avatar
    Urban, I am taking your quote 'cause sf's is just too long.

    Not sure that was such a good explanation. When qnx was acquired we talked a lot about all of this. I am pretty sure that the BB OS kernel is not a JVM. We don't know what the kernel is coded in. The application and interface layer is a JVM. Android functions the same way
    Blackberry OS and Android OS are architecturally very different.

    Android OS is a Linux operating system that can run Java-based applications but BlackBerry OS on the other hand is entirely Java-based from the operating system functionality to its applications.

    Similarly when QNX based OS comes on-board it will be a QNX based OS that can run Java applications. My speculation is that OS 6.1 is still Java based with the exception being the underlying kernel is QNX.
    02-04-11 12:44 AM
  23. sivan's Avatar
    Android OS is a Linux operating system that can run Java-based applications but BlackBerry OS on the other hand is entirely Java-based from the operating system functionality to its applications.
    No, the BlackBerry OS also has a real time OS kernel, just not as advanced as QNX. There are no pure Java OS's, Java runs on a host OS. Myriad low level services from radio, audio and video are written in C, C++ and Assembly and are accessible by the JVM on behalf of applications. Very similar to Android and QNX.

    I would say that the difference is mainly in the fact that Android began as a server OS shrunk down to embedded hardware, while RIM's OS was built for pagers first (harder to grow.) They're converging on a mobile OS from opposite directions.
    The_Engine and Culex316 like this.
    02-04-11 01:30 AM
  24. The_Engine's Avatar
    Good points The_Engine....I like this thread. Seems like everyone is contributing some good speculation vs. a buncha people coming in and talking out of their *** filling the thread with nonsense.
    I hear yah. Always nice to have a discussion like this without the flame throwers coming out.


    I took the dalvik to run BB/Android apps for the Playbook OS and not necessarily related to the BBOS for now.



    True, but they haven't really officially announced much regarding the OS itself. Just a couple things relating to the application platform at Devcon Asia. Also, I think RIM was heavy on the "QNX" announcements relating to the Playbook because it is pretty much a full QNX environment. On the other hand, the 6.1 is just rumored to have QNX as the underlying kernel. So it's not exactly the same comparison.
    I still think the leaked slides would say powered by QNX or something. RIM has not hid QNX at all where they have used it and there is no reason to. QNX has the tech communities respect so linking it to the OS would generate some good press and that in turn would eventually get to the consumers.

    Exactly what I've been saying. Who cares what kernel they're using as long as it works right and the end user gets the user experience they are looking for.

    I can understand though. I think everyone just wants to hear as much QNX as possible without the words BBOS. You think QNX, you think Playbook OS and all of the great, modern, next-gen things coming with it. One thinks BBOS or JVM, they think slow, old, legacy software. Now I'm not a programmer, but I don't think we should think that way and generalize. It's hard for many to believe RIM won't fail from what they've seen in 2010. But I'm hopeful and think they'll make some huge strides this year and we'll see in the next couple of months.

    Playbook is already off to a great start and is looking like one of the best OSs out there. If it's affiliated with Blackberry we can expect great things in the coming months/years....it's that simple.
    Agree. I think we need to have a bit of patience with playbook. As Kevin said in the pod cast it might launch while still under construction but within a few updates it should be on par with the latest and greatest from the competition. I think BB6.1 will give RIM a competitive offering in 2011 and that we will see qnx handsets in 2012.

    I would bet that both will be unveiled at BBW which why they rebranded that conference. This year we see more playbook, but also the new handsets and a lot of 6.1. Next year will see qnx handsets and maybe playbook 2

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by The_Engine; 02-04-11 at 08:16 AM.
    02-04-11 08:13 AM
  25. aceofbladesxi's Avatar
    I think what we all need to really keep in mind regarding those leaked slides is..well they were leaked and they were designed for inter office/carrier use and may not have listed all of the things that RIM would like to "sing from the mountaintops" as someone said. We should wait until the phones are officially announced publicly. It would make a lot of sense to have the QNX team give some imput on the updated phone
    02-04-11 01:15 PM
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