03-25-11 08:40 AM
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  1. sf49ers's Avatar
    Does OS 6.1 run QNX Kernel underneath? This has been bugging me since OS 6.1 features are announced, mostly features like Opel GL support, improved hardware like processor and screen resolution, storing apps on emmc flash memory etc. Though I could be wrong but I think RIM had some problems last year because of its Kernel to scale to the latest hardware otherwise they wouldn't have had under-clocked the 800 Mhz processor on Torch to run at 624 Mhz.

    To add fuel to my speculation I found a news article on the web where the analyst feels the same. Although we will never know what is running underneath unless RIM makes it public but what do you guys think?

    Apple buying chip equipment to deploy, says analyst | ZDNet

    [UPDATE] : Here is another news talking about a hybrid BB OS (i.e OS 6.1 with QNX kernel).

    RIM: Hybrid QNX BlackBerries This Summer, Says Jefferies - Tech Trader Daily - Barrons.com

    [UPDATE]: RIM officially calls OS6.1 a major upgrade. Another news adding fire to the speculation that OS 6.1 runs on top of QNX kernel.

    RIM deems BlackBerry OS 6.1 a 'major upgrade,' promises a spring release -- Engadget
    Last edited by sf49ers; 03-24-11 at 05:50 PM.
    02-03-11 12:12 PM
  2. UrbanGlowCam's Avatar
    No one knows for sure what RIM has up their sleeves. I personally just feel like it doesn't matter, as long as the software runs right. Like you mentioned, the leaked CDMA slides are showing a lot of nice improvements that are software related.

    I don't think RIM would up their hardware that much without some drastically improved software to compliment it. They're not going to just tack on a 1.2GHz processor and call it a day. Any large strides towards being more like the QNX Playbook OS is what I want....I think most people would agree.
    02-03-11 12:22 PM
  3. Pete6's Avatar
    RIM has said that QNX is really only suited to dual-core processors RIM exec talks PlayBook, App World, QNX on phones, and more -- Engadget.

    I doubt therefore that QNX will play any part in OS 6.1.

    It should be fairly easy to check. If it's totally Java, like OS4 - 6, then we may assume that QNX is paying no part in the OS.
    02-03-11 12:35 PM
  4. sf49ers's Avatar
    RIM has said that QNX is really only suited to dual-core processors RIM exec talks PlayBook, App World, QNX on phones, and more -- Engadget.

    I doubt therefore that QNX will play any part in OS 6.1.

    It should be fairly easy to check. If it's totally Java, like OS4 - 6, then we may assume that QNX is paying no part in the OS.
    I understand that but it is clearly an eye wash to buy sometime to complete the development. QNX is currently running on far weaker processors than the current Blackberries and good examples are Logictec harmony remotes, radios, and there is one tablet which was released by 3com called Auderey and it used to run QNX tablet OS on a 200 Mhz processor. Also we need to understand we are talking about just the QNX kernel that has a small foot-print and not the Playbook Tablet OS which is a full fledged OS with Flash support and huge mutli-media capabilities. 1.2 Ghz processor is not weak by means and is comparable to any dual-core mobile processor available today and even if they were to run their latest Tablet OS on 1.2Ghz proc it would just fly and be as snappier as it is on the dual core.

    Moreover the BB OS functionality developed by RIM like email, messaging, voice, radio stack, security and encryption, browser and web-kit engine, and third party applicaitons are all integrated and run inside of the JVM as processes. The JVM itself runs on top a Kernel which is abstracted and a blackbox to the world outside RIM and nobody knows what kernel it is running currently. I am stating that OS 6.1 is very much OS 6.0 as the UI and functionality goes with a major change being underlying Kernel so that it brings many goodies to the table like open GL, store apps on emmc flash, scale hardware etc.
    Last edited by sf49ers; 02-03-11 at 01:14 PM.
    Culex316 and Nbpuli like this.
    02-03-11 12:57 PM
  5. SaMaster14's Avatar
    RIM has said that QNX is really only suited to dual-core processors RIM exec talks PlayBook, App World, QNX on phones, and more -- Engadget.

    I doubt therefore that QNX will play any part in OS 6.1.

    It should be fairly easy to check. If it's totally Java, like OS4 - 6, then we may assume that QNX is paying no part in the OS.
    I think there was a lot of speculation about how the QNX dev team created OS 6.1 by adding their input to what os6 was.

    I know its not QNX obviously, but it could play a roll in how the software runs.
    02-03-11 12:58 PM
  6. MattyG27's Avatar
    I understand that but it is clearly an eye wash to buy sometime to complete the development. QNX is currently running on far weaker processors than the current Blackberries and good examples are Logictec harmony remotes, radios, and there is one tablet which was released by 3com called Auderey and it used to run QNX tablet OS on a 200 Mhz processor. Also we need to understand we are talking about just the QNX kernel that has a small foot-print and not the Playbook Tablet OS which is a full fledged OS with Flash support and huge mutli-media capabilities. 1.2 Ghz processor is not weak by means and is comparable to any dual-core mobile processor available today and even if they were to run their latest Tablet OS on 1.2Ghz proc it would just fly and be as snappier as it is on the dual core.

    Moreover the BB OS functionality developed by RIM like email, messaging, voice, radio stack, security and encryption, browser and web-kit engine, and third party applicaitons are all integrated and run inside of the JVM as processes. The JVM itself runs on top a Kernel which is abstracted and a blackbox to the world outside RIM and nobody knows what kernel it is running currently. I am stating that OS 6.1 is very much OS 6.0 as the UI and functionality goes with a major change being underlying Kernel so that it brings many goodies to the table like open GL, store apps on emmc flash, scale hardware etc.
    So are you saying that you think it actually could be on the QNX kernel because of all the upgrades?
    Take a look at my post here and tell me what you think?
    http://forums.crackberry.com/f40/lte...ar-off-580869/
    Look at post #106
    02-03-11 01:37 PM
  7. Rickroller's Avatar
    RIM has said that QNX is really only suited to dual-core processors.
    I understand that but it is clearly an eye wash to buy sometime to complete the development. QNX is currently running on far weaker processors than the current Blackberries and good examples are Logictec harmony remotes, radios, and there is one tablet which was released by 3com called Auderey and it used to run QNX tablet OS on a 200 Mhz processor..
    I don't believe it's EVER been about NEEDING dual core to run QNX..but rather COST. Face it..RIM isn't in the business of churning out high cost / low profit margin phones. They are in the business of pleasing shareholders and CEO's while making the most bottom dollar on a phone that they can. As i've said before..once dual core chips go on sale at the local Dollar Store..you will see them snapping them up and putting them into handsets like there is no tomorrow.
    1magine likes this.
    02-03-11 01:54 PM
  8. UrbanGlowCam's Avatar
    I don't believe it's EVER been about NEEDING dual core to run QNX..but rather COST. Face it..RIM isn't in the business of churning out high cost / low profit margin phones. They are in the business of pleasing shareholders and CEO's while making the most bottom dollar on a phone that they can. As i've said before..once dual core chips go on sale at the local Dollar Store..you will see them snapping them up and putting them into handsets like there is no tomorrow.
    While it looks that way from their current business model, I think otherwise. I think they truly are working out where they're going with dual core but might be finding it difficult at this point in time. They won't do what Motorola is doing for example with just throwing on the Tegra 2 and a 1900+mah battery. They will do extensive testing to make sure the phones are reliable and battery efficient.

    Enterprise is important to them and they're not just in it to please the tech geeks that have to have the latest and greatest. They want to make sure that when they do release truly next gen devices, they do it right. Also, I'm sure the chipsets they're looking to upgrade to will be powerful stuff. Yeah, we'll see others with similar specs and it's nothing "ahead of the game", but who'll utilize it the best?
    02-03-11 02:14 PM
  9. Stein357's Avatar
    So are you saying that you think it actually could be on the QNX kernel because of all the upgrades?
    Take a look at my post here and tell me what you think?
    http://forums.crackberry.com/f40/lte...ar-off-580869/
    Look at post #106
    Based on the logic of your post and CX's response to it, I'd say QNX is a good bet for 6.1.
    02-03-11 02:37 PM
  10. lnichols's Avatar
    RIM has said that QNX is really only suited to dual-core processors RIM exec talks PlayBook, App World, QNX on phones, and more -- Engadget.
    Did RIM specifically state QNX, or Tablet OS? I've usually see RIM make sure to state Tablet OS when talking about the Playbook, which I took to imply QNX with the Tablet GUI, which is flash based and flash is a resource pig. They could still release QNX with a Blackberry OS UI running over top of it and still get benefits. Something has definitely changed from previous OS's to 6.1 as they seem to be able to do a lot more all of the sudden.
    UrbanGlowCam likes this.
    02-03-11 02:57 PM
  11. MattyG27's Avatar
    Based on the logic of your post and CX's response to it, I'd say QNX is a good bet for 6.1.
    I'm thinking the same thing.
    02-03-11 03:17 PM
  12. UrbanGlowCam's Avatar
    Did RIM specifically state QNX, or Tablet OS? I've usually see RIM make sure to state Tablet OS when talking about the Playbook, which I took to imply QNX with the Tablet GUI, which is flash based and flash is a resource pig. They could still release QNX with a Blackberry OS UI running over top of it and still get benefits. Something has definitely changed from previous OS's to 6.1 as they seem to be able to do a lot more all of the sudden.
    Definitely. We're looking at a lot of under the hood improvements.
    02-03-11 03:18 PM
  13. waterloo888's Avatar
    @sf49ers, I think you are 100% right about BB 6.1 being powered by the QNX OS. Couple thoughts: the hardware on the leaked roadmap slides for Monaco and Dakota show Qualcomm 1.2GHz processors. Qualcomm doesn't make a single core 1.2GHz processor (easily verifiable via the Web), so those must be dual core phones, and we all know that Lazaridis said dual core = QNX.

    Also, I think BB 6.1 "lite" which is mentioned for Curve devices is simply the legacy BB OS with an updated feature set and UI. Those processors are the same Marvell chips that RIM is currently using in the Torch 9800, so makes sense that RIM will continue to serve the "lower end" with the existing BB OS.
    02-03-11 03:31 PM
  14. bostonnerd's Avatar
    I understand that but it is clearly an eye wash to buy sometime to complete the development. QNX is currently running on far weaker processors than the current Blackberries and good examples are Logictec harmony remotes, radios, and there is one tablet which was released by 3com called Auderey and it used to run QNX tablet OS on a 200 Mhz processor. Also we need to understand we are talking about just the QNX kernel that has a small foot-print and not the Playbook Tablet OS which is a full fledged OS with Flash support and huge mutli-media capabilities. 1.2 Ghz processor is not weak by means and is comparable to any dual-core mobile processor available today and even if they were to run their latest Tablet OS on 1.2Ghz proc it would just fly and be as snappier as it is on the dual core.

    snipped...
    Nicely articulated. a QNX Kernel could probably run nicely on the Torch hardware but what would RIM gain by doing it in 6.1 point release? At the least the abstraction layer would probably need to be rewritten. As you stated, the existing Kernel is black box code that nobody but a few RIM low level developers probably have a clue about. They would also have the problem of maintaining two code bases for who knows how long.

    My guess (FWIW) is that a Kernel port to QNX wouldn't happen until a 7.0 release a the earliest.
    02-03-11 03:37 PM
  15. UrbanGlowCam's Avatar
    Qualcomm doesn't make a single core 1.2GHz processor (easily verifiable via the Web), so those must be dual core phones, and we all know that Lazaridis said dual core = QNX.
    That's true but I'm inclined to believe that RIM might be getting custom chipsets from Qualcomm. I doubt they will go dual core at this point.

    Also, I think BB 6.1 "lite" which is mentioned for Curve devices is simply the legacy BB OS with an updated feature set and UI. Those processors are the same Marvell chips that RIM is currently using in the Torch 9800, so makes sense that RIM will continue to serve the "lower end" with the existing BB OS.
    That makes complete sense to me and a great point.
    02-03-11 03:43 PM
  16. sivan's Avatar
    No it won't be QNX, but RIM will be making the UI between the two OS's as similar as possible. On OS6 this will require optimizations around latency and rendering performance for 6.1. At some point when QNX can run OS6 apps, it will be swapped in. For the user it will just appear more stable and capable, but essentially the same.

    Given enough effort, there's no reason OS6 can't be improved. The question is how much effort makes sense given its legacy challenges, and I think the answer will be to bring its user facing behavior as close as possible to QNX until the transition can be made.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    UrbanGlowCam likes this.
    02-03-11 03:45 PM
  17. UrbanGlowCam's Avatar
    Nicely articulated. a QNX Kernel could probably run nicely on the Torch hardware but what would RIM gain by doing it in 6.1 point release?.
    True, it might be a point release, but I think it could mean more than that. I think they want to keep the BB6 nomenclature in order to not make current users feel neglected. There must be a reason for a 6.1 and a 6.1 lite. Lite makes sense to be for the lower end (800Mhz) devices while 6.1 is aimed for the high end (1.2GHz+).

    With the latter, I think they will keep the same look of BB6 and not venture off too much in order to give their previous customers a sense of familiarity. However, there must be some drastic changes made behind the curtains. Many of us might be getting ahead of ourselves but there are a lot of clues as to this happening with the slides and things mentioned by various sources.
    02-03-11 03:50 PM
  18. UrbanGlowCam's Avatar
    No it won't be QNX, but RIM will be making the UI between the two OS's as similar as possible. On OS6 this will require optimizations around latency and rendering performance for 6.1. At some point when QNX can run OS6 apps, it will be swapped in. For the user it will just appear more stable and capable, but essentially the same.

    Given enough effort, there's no reason OS6 can't be improved. The question is how much effort makes sense given its legacy challenges, and I think the answer will be to bring its user facing behavior as close as possible to QNX until the transition can be made.
    I agree. I think they're getting every bit out of their legacy software until they can transition to QNX. Between the BBOS and Playbook OS, they have similarities in the way things are laid out. The "panes" on the homescreen, similar appearance in webkit browser, BBAlpha default font, etc. look similar between them. They will continue developing BB6 until it is as close to QNX as possible, then switch up when similar hardware is available for mobile handsets.

    This is a great way to keep the familiarity for their users and show an evolutionary path as they expand rather than just dropping BB6 and going straight to QNX.
    Last edited by UrbanGlowCam; 02-03-11 at 03:58 PM.
    02-03-11 03:55 PM
  19. waterloo888's Avatar
    yes, the key is the existence of the BB 6.1 "lite", that is the big hint that something going on behind the scenes with BB 6.1. I suspect BB 6.1 will support Flash mobile apps, which is the dead giveaway that its QNX. And you're completely correct that RIM doesn't want to create a major distinction between the 2 versions. You need the Curve to keep selling, as it has a tremendous appeal in markets outside the US where every device is super high-end because of the large carrier subsides and high ARPU contracts.
    02-03-11 03:58 PM
  20. waterloo888's Avatar
    The transition will feel quite seamless. The OS resides in the background. BB 5.0, 6.0, 6.1 "lite" and 6.1 are just user experiences. The distinction will be that in order to experience BB 6.1 and beyond you will need a dual core device. Within 24 months none of this will matter as multicore processors in smartphones will be standard, RIM will have added a java runtime environment to run on top of the QNX OS (which allows backward compatibility with legacy BB OS java apps), and they will be calling it BB 7 (or whatever?) by that time.
    02-03-11 04:05 PM
  21. UrbanGlowCam's Avatar
    Exactly. Pretty smart! Low end devices will likely perform even better than the high end devices RIM has out now! Mid/high range phones should be amazing. Let's hope to see something at Mobile World Congress. Again, like CES, RIM will have a large presence there. I'm sure we will get more answers there and it won't be just Playbook.

    BlackBerry Developer Day Returns to Mobile World Congress | BlackBerry Developer’s Blog
    Last edited by UrbanGlowCam; 02-03-11 at 04:08 PM.
    02-03-11 04:06 PM
  22. Stein357's Avatar
    @sf49ers, I think you are 100% right about BB 6.1 being powered by the QNX OS. Couple thoughts: the hardware on the leaked roadmap slides for Monaco and Dakota show Qualcomm 1.2GHz processors. Qualcomm doesn't make a single core 1.2GHz processor (easily verifiable via the Web), so those must be dual core phones, and we all know that Lazaridis said dual core = QNX.
    I would go along with this theory except that the slides state that the PlayBook is a dual core and it doesn't for the 1.2GHz phones. RIM could have done this on purpose though to not give too much away. I think it's more likely that it's just a fast single core processor that RIM is having built by Qualcomm.
    02-03-11 04:10 PM
  23. The_Engine's Avatar
    I still think 6.1 is built on the 5 kernel.

    First off, considering the reception of the tablet OS and the reputation of QNX vs the reception that BB6 got with the torch (at least in America) you'd have to be a bit slow not to want to make a clear distinction when between them. I think qnx will come with BB7.

    Second, I don't think RIM saw what they expected out of the 5 kernel. Around the time of the OS 5 implementation a lot of folks were saying how the new kernel could do a lot more than we were seeing. Kevin even commented once on how in between 5 and 6 RIM changed some key members of the OS team and brought in their best engineers to build 6. I think that 6.1 is now influenced by the QNX software engineers who seem to be on a whole other level of consciousness than the legacy RIM engineers. So really the 5 kernel had a lot there but they just weren't tapping it well enough. So its powered by qnx talent, but not the QNX itself.

    Third, if it is qnx based, how come 6.1 has a ton of features that the playbook doesn't? Like full support of BB6 apps, Enterprise email, calendar etc. RIM is taking a lot of flak because the playbook seems somewhat unfinished in several aspects. Surely what they have looks amazing but what they don't have is somewhat astounding. If 6.1 is running on QNX then you really have to wonder what the frak is going on in Waterloo and why they would release 2 products on the same OS with diffrent interfaces and application layers and even diffrent feature support within about 6 months.

    To me that last one is the kicker.

    That's my 2 cents.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by The_Engine; 02-03-11 at 04:54 PM.
    02-03-11 04:50 PM
  24. Shodan775's Avatar
    @sf49ers, I think you are 100% right about BB 6.1 being powered by the QNX OS. Couple thoughts: the hardware on the leaked roadmap slides for Monaco and Dakota show Qualcomm 1.2GHz processors. Qualcomm doesn't make a single core 1.2GHz processor (easily verifiable via the Web), so those must be dual core phones, and we all know that Lazaridis said dual core = QNX.
    You guys are really making up stuff.
    BlackBerry OS 6.1 will apparently be launching in the next quarter or two, which gives us some idea for the timeframe of the Dakota which leaked today and was rumoured to run 6.1. I imagine the “much more” referenced in the slide above will include NFC capabilities that will supposedly be built into the Dakota, but who knows what else will come in the next update. As for existing devices, it’s likely that devices that launched with OS 6, like the Style, Torch, and Bold 9780 will be eligible for an upgrade, and with a bit of luck, BlackBerrys like the Bold 9650, 9700, Curve 9300, and Pearl 9100 (which are all compatible with OS 6) may be able to squeeze in. With this announcement, it seems like for the foreseeable future, we won’t be getting QNX on smartphones, unfortunately.
    BlackBerry OS 6.1 Announced with Magnetometer Support


    RIM's BlackBerry Dakota will run BlackBerry OS 6, according to a new report, suggesting that the porting of the PlayBook tablet’s OS onto smartphones is still far away.
    RIM's BlackBerry Dakota Will Run OS 6.1, Not PlayBook OS: Report - Mobile and Wireless - News & Reviews - eWeek.com
    02-03-11 04:53 PM
  25. UrbanGlowCam's Avatar

    Third, if it is qnx based, how come 6.1 has a ton of features that the playbook doesn't? Like full support of BB6 apps, Enterprise email, calendar etc. RIM is taking a lot of flak because the playbook seems somewhat unfinished in several aspects. Surely what they have looks amazing but what they don't have is somewhat astounding. If 6.1 is running on QNX then you really have to wonder what the frak is going on in Waterloo and why they would release 2 products on the same OS with diffrent interfaces and application layers and even diffrent feature support within about 6 months.
    Well this could have been a choice RIM made rather than not having a completed Playbook OS. I think if the Playbook is wifi only, it will not have these native applications from the beginning (without pairing). For the 3G versions, it should have the same standalone BBM, email, calendar, etc. as the handsets.
    02-03-11 04:54 PM
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