03-27-11 10:05 PM
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  1. The_Engine's Avatar
    Okays then. Don't be offended if I believe LG, nvidia, and Motorola as opposed to you.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-25-11 07:08 AM
  2. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Yes, but all the major players are releasing multi core hardware and supportive software. IPad2, various android devices, and QNX from RIM.

    Also note the quote from LG where they are saying the Tegra2 stuff has the best battery life.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Tegra2 has the best battery life compared to what exactly?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-25-11 07:18 AM
  3. The_Engine's Avatar
    Tegra2 has the best battery life compared to what exactly?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Look at the post above or the article itself. LG curently uses chips from Qualcomm and TI as well as nvidia.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-25-11 07:27 AM
  4. The_Engine's Avatar
    To clarify I think any benefit from multi core is incremental and not revolutionary. A progression similiar to what we are from gen 1 snapdragons to gen 2 snapdragons.

    If there were no benefits then why would PC's have gone this road, and why would every mobile chip manufacturer be going this way?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-25-11 07:36 AM
  5. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Look at the post above or the article itself. LG curently uses chips from Qualcomm and TI as well as nvidia.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Better battery life then devices with poor battery life doesn't mean much. You also have to remember all these will also require a more expensive 4G data plan and accoring to endgadget podcast 4G can't be turned off.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-25-11 07:53 AM
  6. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    W

    Well, Europe has no 4G yet, it has hspa which is now called 4G in usa but a 3G phone can access that so what's the point? People will end up with phones that have 4G but no actual signal in sight for years. They should spend the money somwhere else like battery tech for example.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    You're technically right, but technically wrong at the same time.

    1. HSPA+ is backward compatible with HSPA, the same way a Wireless N router is backward compatible with Wireless G adapters.

    2. Running with the example given in #1:

    HSPA+ Network : HSPA Device = HSPA Speeds
    HSPA+ Network : HSPA+ Device = HSPA+ Speeds

    Conclusion: A 3G phone on an HSPA+ network is still a 3G HSPA phone, because the 3G phone has a low mbps (3.6 for Curves usually, and 7.2 for Bolds and Torch) 3G Modem in it.

    HSPA Phones like the G2/MT4G have 14.4 mbps modems in them. The Galaxy S 4G has a 21 mbps modem in it.

    There is a difference... The hardware in an HSPA+ phone allows it to achieve max speeds 2-7x that of a normal 3G device (depending on which phones you're comparing, of course).

    And with media consumption being such a big thing on smartphones these days, in addition to wireless tethering to WiFi tablets, etc. (MUCH cheaper than getting a 3G Tablet and paying for a data plan)... Yea, the "4G" devices (HSPA+ or LTE, whatever...) are simply better than normal 3G devices.

    On top of that, they tend to retail for the same prices, so you get way more bang for your buck going with these dual core LTE/HSPA+/WiMax devices compared to a Blackberry, and there are a lot more future proof due to specs/storage/larger screens/etc.

    These BBOS 6.1 devices will be, for all intents and purposes, obsolete within a year. Buying one of those will make about as much sense as buying a Symbian phone right now...
    03-25-11 07:57 AM
  7. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    So answer me this, how well is the Atrix selling? It hasn't exactly taken the world by storm. I even read reports it's slower then single core androids.
    Fact is dual core is a small market right now but could soon that will change simply because android manufacturers will have to make all their phones dual core to compete with each other, what else have they left to compete with?
    4G is a very very very tiny market right now and it won't change anytime soon.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Android didn't penetrate the market by having one superphone like Apple did. It did it by having tons of devices from mid-ranged to high end. None of them really sell excessively well. Even though Samsung did well with the Galaxy S, they have like 10 different variants of it which were not identical... RIM does the same thing. They are known for having 50 SKUs, you know.

    The ATRIX is doing well enough. It's basically an early-adopter device, the way the Nexus One and HD2 were when 1GHz processors began to penetrate the market.

    Your comment about the market not being ready for Dual Cores reeks of ignorance... Back at the end of 09/beginning of 2010 people were saying the same about those as well. By the time June got there, 1GHz processors were pretty much standard... These days, your phone is considered low end if it doesn't have at least a 1GHz processor with GPU. RIM still haven't caught up with late 2009, nevermind early 2011. They're going to be releasing phones that should have come out in late 09/early-mid 2010 in mid-late 2011...

    Yea, if you're a blackberry user, I'm sure you'll want to think the market doesn't want dual cores, so you can make yourself feel better by buying ****ty hardware at a premium price from RIM.

    Whatever floats your boat, though!!!
    anon1727506 likes this.
    03-25-11 08:06 AM
  8. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    How exactly do you "future proof" a device that's gonna have 6 months shelf life? No manufacturer will ever be interested in making a future proof device.

    The guy who posted earlier is right, out 9700, 9780 and Torches(maybe even the 9000) are now by definition 4G devices.

    I fail to see where exactly you would benefit from a dual core on a mobile phone, tablets and laptops yes but a smart phone? It would have to be only some very intensive game or something.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    It's not just about the OS. It's about Apps as well as the device capabilities given to it by the hardware. Phones with NFC chips right now don't need it, but if NFC does take off really well - even with a few major retailers and banks, that can be a real + for them and their devices were prepared for it even when it wasn't needed... Future Proofed.

    Video Calling isn't that big here (in the US), but if it does become a huge thing soon, phones with FFC will be prepared for it, even though they aren't really needed now. Future Proofed...

    ^ - HSPA+/LTE/WiMax phones are more prepared for this, BTW. People keep saying 4G this and 4G that. Forget about how many Gs it is. People don't really care what it's called. What people want is FASTER DATA SPEEDS. Phones with high mbps "4G" radios in them are future proof. As the networks expand and get better, those phones will download faster and faster. 2G/3G phones are hardcapped way below them by hardware. Future Proofed...

    Mobile gaming is improving a lot. Phones with decent GPUs and larger screens are better prepared for it. Phones with more RAM and storage are better prepared for it. Most blackberries are not. Blackberries weren't future proof, but a Nexus One can still do much of what anyone needs to do. It was a future proof device. HD2 as well... Very future proof. No one said RIM had to use early-adopter-level hardware in their devices, but they should have at least released one decent blackberry with specs on part with a Nexus One/HD2. Microsoft set the barrier at that level for a reason. Anything below that, is laughable... RIM is using hardware from 07/08 in their devices.

    HD Video Recording people thought was a FAD. Don't think it's looked upon like that anymore. Phones that can record in HD quality are future proof. No Blackberry can do that at the moment. 720p recording is basically an expected smartphone features these days - as in, it's something most people mention only when it's missing now...

    When a phone is future proof, you have less incentive to buy a new phone, and certainly less NEED. That doesn't mean some people don't want to upgrade often. Many do, and since we aren't tied to PINs and it's trivial to upgrade a device, SIM Swap, etc. why not if we can afford it?

    There are tons of examples.

    The bottom line is there there is less incentive to replace a Galaxy S phone than there is to replace a Torch, because the phone is still at least above average technologically (form a software and hardware point of view). The Torch is below average on both fronts.

    And RIM needs to do something to jump themselves up, because they're moving very slow and although the new BBs seem nice and all, by the time they release they will still be just as far behind as they are now and when the average consumer looks at it they will think the same thing... "I get more of my money's worth from this than that blackberry, and the keyboard is too small for my manhands, anyways..."
    Last edited by N8ter; 03-25-11 at 08:36 AM.
    03-25-11 08:31 AM
  9. The_Engine's Avatar
    Better battery life then devices with poor battery life doesn't mean much. You also have to remember all these will also require a more expensive 4G data plan and accoring to endgadget podcast 4G can't be turned off.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Its a fact of life now that more processing power Is demanded by mobile OS's. Even RIM is going dual core.

    And 4g can be turned off on the TB (which is what I assume you are referinh to) and VZW is adding a widget for that.

    And right now VZW is same price on data.

    And dual core doesn't require 4g. See incedible 2 or droid x2, or iphone 5.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-25-11 08:51 AM
  10. i7guy's Avatar
    Okays then. Don't be offended if I believe LG, nvidia, and Motorola as opposed to you.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    The proof as they say will be in the pudding.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-25-11 09:17 AM
  11. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    It's not just about the OS. It's about Apps as well as the device capabilities given to it by the hardware. Phones with NFC chips right now don't need it, but if NFC does take off really well - even with a few major retailers and banks, that can be a real + for them and their devices were prepared for it even when it wasn't needed... Future Proofed.

    Video Calling isn't that big here (in the US), but if it does become a huge thing soon, phones with FFC will be prepared for it, even though they aren't really needed now. Future Proofed...

    ^ - HSPA+/LTE/WiMax phones are more prepared for this, BTW. People keep saying 4G this and 4G that. Forget about how many Gs it is. People don't really care what it's called. What people want is FASTER DATA SPEEDS. Phones with high mbps "4G" radios in them are future proof. As the networks expand and get better, those phones will download faster and faster. 2G/3G phones are hardcapped way below them by hardware. Future Proofed...

    Mobile gaming is improving a lot. Phones with decent GPUs and larger screens are better prepared for it. Phones with more RAM and storage are better prepared for it. Most blackberries are not. Blackberries weren't future proof, but a Nexus One can still do much of what anyone needs to do. It was a future proof device. HD2 as well... Very future proof. No one said RIM had to use early-adopter-level hardware in their devices, but they should have at least released one decent blackberry with specs on part with a Nexus One/HD2. Microsoft set the barrier at that level for a reason. Anything below that, is laughable... RIM is using hardware from 07/08 in their devices.

    HD Video Recording people thought was a FAD. Don't think it's looked upon like that anymore. Phones that can record in HD quality are future proof. No Blackberry can do that at the moment. 720p recording is basically an expected smartphone features these days - as in, it's something most people mention only when it's missing now...

    When a phone is future proof, you have less incentive to buy a new phone, and certainly less NEED. That doesn't mean some people don't want to upgrade often. Many do, and since we aren't tied to PINs and it's trivial to upgrade a device, SIM Swap, etc. why not if we can afford it?

    There are tons of examples.

    The bottom line is there there is less incentive to replace a Galaxy S phone than there is to replace a Torch, because the phone is still at least above average technologically (form a software and hardware point of view). The Torch is below average on both fronts.

    And RIM needs to do something to jump themselves up, because they're moving very slow and although the new BBs seem nice and all, by the time they release they will still be just as far behind as they are now and when the average consumer looks at it they will think the same thing... "I get more of my money's worth from this than that blackberry, and the keyboard is too small for my manhands, anyways..."
    That's all good in theory but in practice all it takes is a certain feature to be unavailable or a certain game, OS maybe and the "future proof" phone is left behind. Plus while you wait for the future features that your phone is capable now to become available components will get old, damaged etc or simply you'll get tired/bored of it.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-25-11 09:29 AM
  12. 1magine's Avatar
    WOW. Most of my threads get little to no posts. That said - I do not get it. DO YOU ALL REALIZE THAT THE PLAYBOOK IS A DUAL CORE DEVICE RUNNING A COMPLETELEY DIFFERENT ARCHITECTURE FROM THEIR BB HANDHELDS?? HAVE YOU ASKED YOURSELVES WHY? Why if everything that RIM has been doing is fine, are they doing everything different with the Playbook? From processing power, to memory management, to the Operating System on down. There is a damn good reason for this, whether the cheerleaders and apologists want to admit it or not.

    Of course, this was no where near the point or reason for the original post. I was honestly just surprised how fast the market was evolving.
    03-25-11 10:32 AM
  13. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    WOW. Most of my threads get little to no posts. That said - I do not get it. DO YOU ALL REALIZE THAT THE PLAYBOOK IS A DUAL CORE DEVICE RUNNING A COMPLETELEY DIFFERENT ARCHITECTURE FROM THEIR BB HANDHELDS?? HAVE YOU ASKED YOURSELVES WHY? Why if everything that RIM has been doing is fine, are they doing everything different with the Playbook? From processing power, to memory management, to the Operating System on down. There is a damn good reason for this, whether the cheerleaders and apologists want to admit it or not.

    Of course, this was no where near the point or reason for the original post. I was honestly just surprised how fast the market was evolving.
    Hmmm, the playbook is a computing tablet, not a phone, most netbooks are dual core now.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-25-11 11:32 AM
  14. 1magine's Avatar
    No - most netbooks and tablets aren't. The Netbooks almost all use the atom single core.
    howarmat likes this.
    03-25-11 11:34 AM
  15. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    No - most netbooks and tablets aren't. The Netbooks almost all use the atom single core.
    Doesn't change the fact that it's not a phone. It also has a 5000+ battery, something a bit impossible to put on a phone.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-25-11 11:39 AM
  16. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    pad and playbook aren't used for voice calls and I thing the jury is out on the multi core battery life.

    There are a host of factors including manufacturing technology that effects battery life but I'm not sold that dual two dual cores draw less power for the same work as a single core resulting in better battery life on a cell phone.

    Time will tell though.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    You're an i7Core user and you don't believe they use less power?

    Seriously, I hope you're not in the tech industry because I'd hate to take advise from you. You probably also think that a CPU draws the same amount of power when at full tilt (100% utilization) as opposed to when it's idle.

    Let your PC sit on the post or BIOS screen and measure the power draw because the CPU isn't throttled down from 100% yet. See what you get. I know this is going a bit off-topic, but it's around the same principal because with multiple cores, you can draw less power by working each core at a lesser utilization level and splitting the work across them to get the same work done.
    03-25-11 01:06 PM
  17. i7guy's Avatar
    You're an i7Core user and you don't believe they use less power?

    Seriously, I hope you're not in the tech industry because I'd hate to take advise from you. You probably also think that a CPU draws the same amount of power when at full tilt (100% utilization) as opposed to when it's idle.

    Let your PC sit on the post or BIOS screen and measure the power draw because the CPU isn't throttled down from 100% yet. See what you get. I know this is going a bit off-topic, but it's around the same principal because with multiple cores, you can draw less power by working each core at a lesser utilization level and splitting the work across them to get the same work done.
    Seriously JRS do you know what you are talking about? I hope you are not in the tech industry because I'd hate to take advice from you.

    My core i7 pegs the power meter at full bore with 130 TDP it should. You can say it get's more work done per clock cycle or more work done per watt then a core duo or pentium, but when it's going at full bore, it sucks down the electricity. At rest, it politely sips electricity.

    Unlike my core i7 a cell phone does not have an infinite power supply, which is why I am left wondering what these vendors are really saying.

    I fully well understand a 60nm manufacturing process will use more juice and produce more heat than the current 32 nm manufacturing process for the same circuit design. So attempting to make blanket statements that a dual core processor is more energy efficient than a single core processor, is not what I am able to measure in real life.

    But I'm not a scientist, and I recognize that with the "time will tell" caveat.
    03-25-11 01:32 PM
  18. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Seriously JRS do you know what you are talking about? I hope you are not in the tech industry because I'd hate to take advice from you.

    My core i7 pegs the power meter at full bore with 130 TDP it should. You can say it get's more work done per clock cycle or more work done per watt then a core duo or pentium, but when it's going at full bore, it sucks down the electricity. At rest, it politely sips electricity.

    Unlike my core i7 a cell phone does not have an infinite power supply, which is why I am left wondering what these vendors are really saying.

    I fully well understand a 60nm manufacturing process will use more juice and produce more heat than the current 32 nm manufacturing process for the same circuit design. So attempting to make blanket statements that a dual core processor is more energy efficient than a single core processor, is not what I am able to measure in real life.

    But I'm not a scientist, and I recognize that with the "time will tell" caveat.
    OK, so basically you just agreed with me.

    I never said you had to go full tilt on utilization on dual core, you're assuming that because a smartphone has one that it should. Fact is, it wouldn't need to because if the OS code remains as efficient if not more efficient than it was during single core designs, it'll accomplish the same tasks using less power by running the dual core proc at less power while splitting the work across the multiple cores. Seriously, you do know that a proc only needs more power when it runs at it's faster rates and that's only needed when trying to increase clock rate to do more work. If you can do twice the work at half the clock rate as before, you'll be using less power with the dual core vs single core. Do you not get this? Also, that's leaving out design scale, power management, etc. and just comparing power consumption based on the single variable of clockrate vs cores to complete the same tasks in the same amount of time. You factor in the other technical advances of the newer architecture and the efficiency goes up more.

    Going a step further and throwing in firmware based control vs BIOS based control and efficiency and speed vs power consumption is again increased. There's a lot of variables and aspects you're not taking into consideration when you're thinking about this stuff.
    03-25-11 11:18 PM
  19. i7guy's Avatar
    OK, so basically you just agreed with me.
    Snip...
    The short answer is no.

    Ignoring the fact the core i7 has deeper pipelining and better power management than the core duo which was a second Pentium slapped on the die, we are talking about s device with a limited battery life.

    A dual core processor requires more advanced circuitry more transistors etc. And its not like companies have yver mislead the public, either through outright lies or omissions of critical information.

    Which is why I'm saying I think there needs to be a wait and see attitude about where the technology is headed.

    Smartphones are different animals people have vastly different requirements and there are those where battery life is of utmost concern. And then there are those who can stay plugged in all day surfing on their schools wifi network.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-26-11 10:13 AM
  20. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    No - most netbooks and tablets aren't. The Netbooks almost all use the atom single core.
    An Atom is factorably more powerful than the ARM processors used in smartphones. That's why Microsoft needed to work on an ARM port for Windows, when you can just install it and run it just fine on a 1.6GHz Atom-based netbook/tablet (this is despite the fact that it's a different code architecture).

    The issue with atoms (keeping them out of phones, etc.) are power/heat/etc. That's why ARM is ubiquitous in mobile devices.
    Last edited by N8ter; 03-26-11 at 11:15 AM.
    03-26-11 11:07 AM
  21. n8ter#AC's Avatar
    That's all good in theory but in practice all it takes is a certain feature to be unavailable or a certain game, OS maybe and the "future proof" phone is left behind. Plus while you wait for the future features that your phone is capable now to become available components will get old, damaged etc or simply you'll get tired/bored of it.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    If something breaks, that's what warranty is for. You exchange it or get it fixed.

    If you get tired/bored of it, that has nothing to do with the future-proofness of the phone. People get bored or tired of devices at different paces.

    Having a future proof phone is about as relevant as having a future proof computer.

    Why buy a computer with a Celeron Processor when you can get one with an i5 (and various other better parts) for the same price?

    Why buy a computer with Vista when you can get a better one with Windows 7?

    The TCO of these better phones are less because there is less incentive to replace them.

    I didn't say some people are habitual tech swappers and get tired of devices fast. I said the incentive to do so is much less with an iPhone, WP7 device, or Android phone that it is with a Blackberry or Symbian/WinMo phone, for example.

    That's a pretty obvious fact.

    Those people replace their phones because they want to, not necessarily because they need to.

    There is enough missing on BB phones that if you want a certain feature, you either have to switch platforms or replace your phone entirely. Not cause you want to do it, but cause there's no other way to get that feature.

    RIM refreshes their devices to appease the "want to have the latest and greatest" crowd, but a majority of their users use low cost Blackberries (curves, etc.) and do not upgrade often... There's no need to do so, since functionally all blackberries are largely the same...
    K Bear likes this.
    03-26-11 11:11 AM
  22. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    If something breaks, that's what warranty is for. You exchange it or get it fixed.

    If you get tired/bored of it, that has nothing to do with the future-proofness of the phone. People get bored or tired of devices at different paces.

    Having a future proof phone is about as relevant as having a future proof computer.

    Why buy a computer with a Celeron Processor when you can get one with an i5 (and various other better parts) for the same price?

    Why buy a computer with Vista when you can get a better one with Windows 7?

    The TCO of these better phones are less because there is less incentive to replace them.

    I didn't say some people are habitual tech swappers and get tired of devices fast. I said the incentive to do so is much less with an iPhone, WP7 device, or Android phone that it is with a Blackberry or Symbian/WinMo phone, for example.

    That's a pretty obvious fact.

    Those people replace their phones because they want to, not necessarily because they need to.

    There is enough missing on BB phones that if you want a certain feature, you either have to switch platforms or replace your phone entirely. Not cause you want to do it, but cause there's no other way to get that feature.

    RIM refreshes their devices to appease the "want to have the latest and greatest" crowd, but a majority of their users use low cost Blackberries (curves, etc.) and do not upgrade often... There's no need to do so, since functionally all blackberries are largely the same...
    Well, future proof means going past the first year of warranty.
    Take the bold 9000 that came out around 3 years ago, that was a future proof phone, big beautiful screen, best qwerty ever, fast 3G, GPS, good call quality and best speakers on a phone.
    I would use one right now if it wasn't for one problem, the 2mp camera. It was very good in daylight and not so good at night. If I wouldn't take photos of my kids with my phone I would probably have no memories. The 9700 camera makes all the difference and I believe the 9780 and Torch are even better.
    So you see, it only takes one thing to make it not so future proof.
    How often do you see an iphone edge or even 3G and how often do you see a bold 9000?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-27-11 04:00 AM
  23. Rootbrian's Avatar
    Smartphones are crazy nowadays. So much choice, so much confusion, so much debate. Eh, I'll stick to my 9700 until it's flashed out.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-27-11 10:05 PM
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