05-20-12 04:57 AM
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  1. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I also don't consider BBM a huge part of the 'experience'. To be honest, even with my Pearl/Curve/Storm days (when my BBM list was about 25 people) I can count on one hand how many times I used it over that 2 years. I've used BBM more in the last 2 months, but even then not often. I still prefer text message and get more texts from my BB using friends than BBM.


    I got blisters on me fingers! from using Tapatalk.
    Those days were different, when I got my 8320 it probably took 6 months before I figured out what BBM was.

    Now there's no hour that goes past without a bbm sent or received. Also BBM has massively evolved since than. Now you can play games, have push to talk conversations, and have your facebook status or twitts as your bbm status etc etc

    BBM is truly a social network now, especially with the introduction of BBM Music, what you listen in bbmm now it's displayed in BBM too.

    BBM is not an instant messenger anymore.
    05-18-12 10:41 AM
  2. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Seriously, people don't know about bedside mode? Pft.

    It's not compromising your BB experience to enable BBM over Wi-Fi, without a BIS/BES plan. In fact, I know many iPhone users who don't have a data plan, but they have a basic voice/texting plan.
    What would in it for RIM? I don't think anybody would buy a new blackberry just to do that with it.
    05-18-12 10:51 AM
  3. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Seriously, people don't know about bedside mode? Pft.

    It's not compromising your BB experience to enable BBM over Wi-Fi, without a BIS/BES plan. In fact, I know many iPhone users who don't have a data plan, but they have a basic voice/texting plan.
    Do you understand how BBM works? and how RIM services work?

    saying you don't want to compromise the BB experience, yet you want them to rewrite the core
    05-18-12 12:26 PM
  4. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    DeRusset:

    I'm going to drop a lot of points because the discussion is becoming lengthier and lengthier and it's getting out of control

    Appealing to government and enterprise isn't exactly panning out well is it. For some reason people seem to have interpreted "people who want to get things done quickly" (henceforth "quick people") as corporate. It's a far broader category than that, and yes, it includes people who want to get their web-browsing done quickly, so a few extra "milliseconds" (it is more than that in reality) will be important.

    As you say, truncation and compression were original due to bandwith constraints, and now the usefulness of them with expensive data is becoming apparent. However, it will never be a reason why an average consumer, not even an average "quick person" will make it their deciding factor for buying a phone. The group of people whose primary concern in choosing a phone is data consumption is a very small subgroup of quick people. In many ways that's probably a good thing, as concern over data consumption would have left us all on dial-up and not be able to watch HD movies instantly over the web. Most BB users have a small data bill not through data compression but through the fact the phone doesn't lend itself to data consumption.

    I don't want to get rid of the NOC, I just want BIS to be overhauled. It just isn't consumer friendly enough at the moment, and RIM needs to be far more consumer friendly with BB10 if it wants to re-establish itself (as an example of this, as you suggest there could be an option for email truncation, but the default setting should be full emails, and the option to change it should be buried somewhere no average consumer should find it).
    Appealing to Enterprise and Government has worked out Well,
    RIM continues to ship more and more devices, the problem is people want to see RIM do more than that, and expect more, BUT RIM can't abandon their roots, do what you are good at WELL, which is what they need to do.

    We both have an agreement that BIS needs changing we just have different views of how that would go about, and the services that are tied to it, and I'm still not sure where you are getting your technical knowledge about BIS for some of your statements about it.
    05-18-12 12:29 PM
  5. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    Seriously, people don't know about bedside mode? Pft.

    It's not compromising your BB experience to enable BBM over Wi-Fi, without a BIS/BES plan. In fact, I know many iPhone users who don't have a data plan, but they have a basic voice/texting plan.
    BBM is fine the way it is now. Use another cross-platform chat app to Wi-Fi chat with lame people that have no data plans.
    05-18-12 12:55 PM
  6. Snuupy's Avatar
    BBM is fine the way it is now. Use another cross-platform chat app to Wi-Fi chat with lame people that have no data plans.
    I dislike the condensation that is used on people who prefer not to shell out money for services that may not be needed. Just because you pay for BIS/BES doesn't mean other people necessarily want to, and makes you seem like a snob.

    You didn't even support your points. You basically told us to screw off, and that attitude makes you look immature. =\
    05-18-12 11:18 PM
  7. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    If you don't pay for the premium RIM services, that's your choice. But don't expect to use them for free. As Stephen asked you, what's in it for RIM to give you BBM if you don't want to pay for it?
    05-19-12 06:30 AM
  8. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I dislike the condensation that is used on people who prefer not to shell out money for services that may not be needed. Just because you pay for BIS/BES doesn't mean other people necessarily want to, and makes you seem like a snob.

    You didn't even support your points. You basically told us to screw off, and that attitude makes you look immature. =\
    You don't want to pay for services but you do want the services, well which is it? Just because you don't want to pay doesn't mean you can demand them for free.

    Lol, 5 a month is not really that expensive.
    05-19-12 06:45 AM
  9. SwitchBeach's Avatar
    I dislike the condensation that is used on people who prefer not to shell out money for services that may not be needed. Just because you pay for BIS/BES doesn't mean other people necessarily want to, and makes you seem like a snob.

    You didn't even support your points. You basically told us to screw off, and that attitude makes you look immature. =\
    "condensation" ?? Perhaps you mean "condescension". But I don't want to sound patronizing.
    05-19-12 07:04 AM
  10. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I dislike the condensation that is used on people who prefer not to shell out money for services that may not be needed. Just because you pay for BIS/BES doesn't mean other people necessarily want to, and makes you seem like a snob.

    You didn't even support your points. You basically told us to screw off, and that attitude makes you look immature. =\
    I agree

    I hate paying for cable TV, When I buy a TV all the content should be provided.. right?

    I hate paying for Dry Cleaning, When I buy my suit dry cleaning should be free... right?
    05-19-12 07:10 AM
  11. sam_b77's Avatar
    I agree

    I hate paying for cable TV, When I buy a TV all the content should be provided.. right?

    I hate paying for Dry Cleaning, When I buy my suit dry cleaning should be free... right?
    You forgot to mention that when I buy a car I expect fuel free till I keep the car, but the car companies are thieves. They expect us to pay for fuel to enable the car to do its basic function that is take me from place to place.
    05-19-12 07:54 AM
  12. kraski's Avatar
    OK, I've waded through 7 of the 11 pages of this stuff. So, here are my thoughts

    Let's say mom and dad give you a car with gas in the tank. It was given to you, ready to use (BBM) and it's free. There are networks of roads, some free, some charging tolls and they link to each other -- that's BIS. Since the car was given to you, it's free. But it's useless until you choose a set of roads to run it on. Vehicle is different from transport. And it's the toll roads you pay extra for, not the car.

    The first couple of messages in this thread gave me the impression that the discussion came out of the Alpha devices having a version of BBM that doesn't require BIS. Giving them out that way makes sense. It still allows secure communication with people at RIM for questions, while not saddling the dev with the possible cost or potential of a carrier messing up their account because of BIS. Many devs RIM is trying to attract are not BB users. And still gives them the parts of BBM they need to create BBM connected apps. For the average Blackberry user, BIS is needed. Greater security and data compression. In many countries, data is sold in increments much smaller than we get in North America and western Europe. If compression can get them extra data, that's a good thing.
    Last edited by kraski; 05-19-12 at 08:07 AM.
    05-19-12 08:04 AM
  13. M.Rizk's Avatar
    Sorry for joining late. But Yes BBM is not free. You could pay like 20$ for your BIS Data Plan. Your carriers pay 5$ out of them to RIM on monthly basis (5$ applies on the Full BIS Plan not Social/Emails) for Social and Emails you still pay RIM just less I think it's about 3$ not 5$.

    Most of carriers provide BIS at a same rate as other plans except in Middle East BIS is ****ing cheaper. Where Unlimited BIS is 20$ a month while 10GB iPhone is 50$ (That's the case in Egypt) while in Qatar 15$ for 1GB BIS and 30$ for 1GB iPhone.

    Why carriers in the Middle East makes it much cheaper? Middle Eastern people are known to be Data Abusers because they've many sites that post free pirated games and apps in Arabic which is not monitored by international gaming companies making those sites stay alive with much to download from. So usually Middle Eastern people consume much more data than those anywhere else. Carrier depend on RIM NOC to compress the data which compresses it very efficiently! Making carrier set BIS prices at much lower prices compared to iPhone although they pay RIM but don't pay Apple!

    Sources (English):
    Etisalat Egypt (Leading H+ Provider): http://etisalat.com.eg/etisalat/Etis...blackberry.htm
    Mobinil Egypt (First Mobile Provider in Egypt): http://www.mobinil.com/Mobinilservic...lackBerry.aspx
    Vodafone Qatar (Leading Global Network Provider): http://www.vodafone.qa/go/en/plans/blackberry/home
    Qatar Qtel (Qatar's National Provider): http://www.qtel.qa/QODPPortal/portal...RICING_TEXT_EN

    Current Promotions in EG and QA:
    1. EG: by Etisalat --> 12 Months of Free BlackBerry Service(Unlimited) when you purchase a Curve 9380, Bold 9900 | 50% discount on the Bill for a year if you buy one of the OS6, 5 devices. 20% discount on Curve 8520
    2. QA: by Vodafone --> 6 Months of Free BlackBerry Service(1GB) when you purchase any BlackBerry.
    WHILE NONE OF THE CARRIERS GIVE OUT ANYTHING WHEN YOU BUY AN IPHONE!

    I need BIS on BlackBerry 10 or I am not getting it and will just keep my Bold 9900 with a cheap Android phone.
    Last edited by M.Rizk; 05-19-12 at 08:29 AM.
    05-19-12 08:18 AM
  14. reeneebob's Avatar
    WHILE NONE OF THE CARRIERS GIVE OUT ANYTHING WHEN YOU BUY AN IPHONE!

    Apple does not allow us to provide promotions like in store credits (which are often provided to BB and Android). Its not the carriers fault.

    I actually prefer it - a lot of people choose the wrong phone for them because it came with a bunch of freebies and ignore our suggestions that another phone would work best.


    Sent from my BlackBerry Bold 9900 using Tapatalk
    05-19-12 09:31 AM
  15. M.Rizk's Avatar
    The offers done in Egypt all by carrier not in-coperation with RIM or Android providers.

    Because in Egypt, people get paid low salaries so they always prefer Pay as you go Internet over fixed monthly/daily plans. So the only way for carriers to attract them to those plans is by showing them how the BlackBerry plans provide much more value at a much low price. Pay as you go gives you 5MB for the first 1 Egyptian pound paid then 1MB per 5 Egyptian pounds. The first free 5MB barely cover 4 hours chatting on eBuddy messenger to login to Facebook, MSN, Yahoo. While on BIS they just pay 2.5 Egyptian pounds a day for UNLIMITED access to every single popular social site, all native IM clients also BBM!

    So it's not about in-store credit or contracts with RIM. RIM is not involved in anyway. Where I got my info from? I communicate with Etisalat BlackBerry Services team a lot over emails and I know well how they work.

    BlackBerry is becoming Egypt's first choice now because Curve 8520 is getting cheaper and BIS saves fortune of money.
    05-19-12 09:57 AM
  16. BlackBerry Guy's Avatar
    This thread has answered it's own question of whether BBM is free (specifically the bit between Belfast and Tequilla). Bottom line is, if you don't pay for a BIS enabled data plan, then you don't get to use or take advantage of the associated services/features.
    Last edited by Blackberry Guy; 05-19-12 at 10:16 AM.
    05-19-12 10:14 AM
  17. gtpointer's Avatar
    Anyone reading this would think RIM is a deity considering criticism of it is treated with such disdain.

    Corporate and governance clearly isn't working out for RIM. To claim so is a lie. It is also BES. They really are different creatures.

    BIS is not the BB core. There's far more to the experience than that. Even if it were, RIM needs to remove it to make money. That's what companies are for. Not to indulge your whims. Consumers matter, for everything from your average buyer to corporate as we've seen from BYOD and company wide shifts to other platforms. You seem intent on driving RIM into the ground to make yourselves happy, unwilling to adapt to a changing market.

    I know I'm being blunt and somewhat rude now but I am fed up with the equally rude responses I've been given (every time without fail "go away" even in response to complaints about that very habit) and all I'm doing is suggesting something I think will help RIM...
    05-19-12 06:21 PM
  18. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Anyone reading this would think RIM is a deity considering criticism of it is treated with such disdain.

    Corporate and governance clearly isn't working out for RIM. To claim so is a lie. It is also BES. They really are different creatures.

    BIS is not the BB core. There's far more to the experience than that. Even if it were, RIM needs to remove it to make money. That's what companies are for. Not to indulge your whims. Consumers matter, for everything from your average buyer to corporate as we've seen from BYOD and company wide shifts to other platforms. You seem intent on driving RIM into the ground to make yourselves happy, unwilling to adapt to a changing market.

    I know I'm being blunt and somewhat rude now but I am fed up with the equally rude responses I've been given (every time without fail "go away" even in response to complaints about that very habit) and all I'm doing is suggesting something I think will help RIM...

    BIS IS at the RIM OS core, when you understand how RIM's OS is written, how it handles things, the BIS/BES infrastructure are at the CORE of the OS,

    I didn't say the core of the user experience, and I'm pretty sure I mentioned from a development standpoint, or an OS standpoint in at least one response.
    05-19-12 07:10 PM
  19. Snuupy's Avatar
    "condensation" ?? Perhaps you mean "condescension". But I don't want to sound patronizing.
    Whoops, was doing science homework just before I posted this xD
    05-19-12 11:59 PM
  20. kevinnugent's Avatar
    I also roam pretty often, every time I cross from Northern Ireland to Ireland I'm roaming and it's only 40 minutes drive away. Compression is very important.

    I also have a non exchange hosted email account, well two really, and my wife has a simple pop3 email from her work. Other platform still don't have push email for that. BIS makes them push.
    Do you have to pay international call rates to call a mate in Ireland, Belfast?
    05-20-12 01:36 AM
  21. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Do you have to pay international call rates to call a mate in Ireland, Belfast?
    Indeed I do. But I use a half voip app for all international calls. It's called VOPIUM and works a treat.
    05-20-12 02:46 AM
  22. Mamaluka's Avatar
    That's a ridiculous argument. If your logic were extended: to use imessage you need an iphone. It's part of the feature set of an iphone. You need to pay for an iphone (either up front or through carrier subsidies). Therefore imessage isn't free.

    All you're saying is things aren't completely free in life. This we can take for granted. It isn't helpful to the discussion to labour this point. However, some things come along with something you're paying for anyway. These we can loosely call "free". On this basis, BIS and consequently BBM are free for some people, like the UK when you can't get plans without BIS. They simply don't exist. It just comes with standard phone contracts if you get a BB.

    EDIT: also, this has got rather off topic as someone has mentioned before. As I've somewhat noted, we've essentially got into a discussion of the meaning of the word "free"
    Aaaaaaand, even though you know its off topic, you continue to drive home your side of the point.....incredible. 12 pages of tit for tat irrelevant to the OP and the thread is still open.
    Last edited by Mamaluka; 05-20-12 at 04:50 AM.
    05-20-12 04:47 AM
  23. gtpointer's Avatar
    And it's not as if RIM is writing a new OS from scratch...

    I know you didn't say user experience, but others have.

    Edit: mamaluka - I'm not off topic. I'm no longer talking about the cost of BIS, not my fault if others keep bringing it up. Whether BIS is worthwhile is a key point in a discussion about whether BBM could/should exist without BIS.

    Edit 2: you didn't have to read all 12 pages. Nobody made you.
    Last edited by gtpointer; 05-20-12 at 06:16 AM.
    05-20-12 04:57 AM
  24. Mamaluka's Avatar
    Ah, poor RIM, they can't even give you something for free now. It seems to be impossible to give you added value to your BIS plan as you're already "paying" for it.

    As I said, where do you draw the line and start calling a BIS dependent service from RIM FREE?

    At Blackberry Travel? Blackberry Maps? Traffic?

    RIM could give you a gold watch but it's not free, apparently you're paying for it.
    And if that gold watch needed to be plugged into my USB port on my BIS enabled BB in order to work, it wouldn't be free.

    If you can't beat em, join em. Hey, I read through 12 pages of this nonsense speckled within this thread, I'm entitled. Lol
    05-20-12 04:57 AM
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