05-20-12 04:57 AM
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  1. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Except that 6 pack was a 2 pack to start with and it's grown into a 6 pack, RIM started adding more packs at no extra cost, actually, you get more packs now at a lower cost.

    So basically RIM can't give you anything for free, they could put a gold watch into your new blackberry's box but it's not free because you have to pay for the phone?

    I don't know about you but that sounds incredibly selfish and ungrateful.
    05-16-12 11:24 AM
  2. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    I honestly can't believe some of the stuff in this thread..

    Here is the deal:

    With an iPhone you buy the hardware. With the hardware, you get access to iMessage, the AppStore, Email, and tons of other "value added" incentives. If you want to use the phone wirelessly, you have to pay for a data plan or use wifi. If you pay for a data plan (meaning you bought the phone subsidized), you pay for the HARDWARE over the life of the contract.

    When you buy a Blackberry you get access to SOME of the applications without a data plan. Therefore, you must purchase a subscription on top of what you paid for the phone. You are still paying for the HARDWARE over the life of the contract on top of being locked into a data service in order to have any access to those applications.

    BIS is like a six pack of beer. You buy the six pack, you get all of the beer. You can't say that BBM is free. That would be like the supermarket telling you that your six pack of beer is now a five pack.. and you got the last one for free.

    If you want to say that RIM is a software company, fine. I will go with you all the way on that. Don't act like RIM is being a nice guy and giving away free services though. If I buy a Blackberry at full price I will never be able to use those services until I'm locked in a data plan. As a developer, this kind of sucks. I want to be to switch devices when I need to test stuff out. I also want to be able to use a phone that I paid a lot of money for. With an iPhone, I get a generic data plan that I can use to get all services on WP7, iOS, and Android.
    Here's the deal:

    At one point before smartphones became widely adopted, data plans weren't mandatory. Carriers offered the BlackBerry data plans at the same price as the generic plans. Carriers didn't raise your data plan rate if you changed from another brand phone to a BlackBerry. You could just call your carrier and switch the data plan without being charged. Data plans rates were grandfathered and not raised when you upgraded your phones.

    On my account, I have had my BlackBerry Unlimited Data for 7 years, and I am paying $19.99 per month. The carriers have no incentive to allow users to carry over the cheaper plans like the one I have, and try every maneuver possible to make you switch off these plans.

    I see people blaming RIM all the time, but in reality, the carriers at one time didn't charge more for the BlackBerry plan... but it is an extra revenue source for them, so now the carrier charges more for it.

    Think about it... some of the smaller/prepaid carriers provide BlackBerry Data plans for less than the big 4 in the US... how and why is that possible?
    Hmmmmm.....
    05-16-12 11:43 AM
  3. husainpatan's Avatar
    *my 0.2 cents to whether bbm is free.
    I DON'T CARE; NO ONEELSE SHOULD TOO.
    Messages sent over bbm are ROUTED THROUGH RIM SERVERS for IMMPOSSIBLE to CRACK ENCRYPTION.
    *BBM=SECURE=BBM*
    Yes bbm is FREE for your device like many other free instant messaging application.
    But did I just say bbm=secure, and how do u suppose that security is gonna come? Over the air? Like Whatsapp, yahoo, live? NO. Good people at rim has setup some pretty good servers for us/you to communicate securely.
    Heck! Get a Whatsapp if u that badly wanna get taste of what's FREE. But wait they too beg a $.99/year. NOT free, thought not secure. So bad, isn't it?
    *lastly, for those who endlessly rants/whines on that extra buck for BIS; its not for u then. Simple. But then too I would like to make them realize.
    *U purchase an iphone/android (we really don't have any other thing in market so I gave these two names), you get a DATAPLAN, you PAY for that plan, you get things done ur way, you then get an instant messaging app(Whatsapp, live, chaton..), u use it.
    *U get a BlackBerry, u get a generic data plan,u PAY for that plan, u get things done ur way, you then get an instant messaging app(Whatsapp,live..), u use it.
    Its pretty much the same, isn't it?
    But wait, the whiners expect more out of BB than iphone/android. So get BB services activated and PAY for that EXTRA features then. Rim is a corporate, they are their to earn money.

    "World still communicates on BBs, iPhones are there just to coordinate" gulp it down.
    05-16-12 02:48 PM
  4. Snuupy's Avatar
    I honestly can't believe some of the stuff in this thread..
    With an iPhone you buy the hardware. With the hardware, you get access to iMessage, the AppStore, Email, and tons of other "value added" incentives. If you want to use the phone wirelessly, you have to pay for a data plan or use wifi.

    When you buy a Blackberry you get access to SOME of the applications without a data plan.

    If I buy a Blackberry at full price I will never be able to use those services until I'm locked in a data plan. As a developer, this kind of sucks. I want to be to switch devices when I need to test stuff out. I also want to be able to use a phone that I paid a lot of money for. With an iPhone, I get a generic data plan that I can use to get all services on WP7, iOS, and Android.
    This.

    Except that 6 pack was a 2 pack to start with and it's grown into a 6 pack, RIM started adding more packs at no extra cost, actually, you get more packs now at a lower cost.

    So basically RIM can't give you anything for free, they could put a gold watch into your new blackberry's box but it's not free because you have to pay for the phone?

    I don't know about you but that sounds incredibly selfish and ungrateful.
    BBM was originally an advertised service as /free/. Again, you seem to be extremely biased in this area of "free". The definition of free is as follows: "Without cost or payment". Again, this needs to be paid, which is contrary to what you said earlier.

    Yes, it's not free if we have to buy the phone to get a gold watch. I think it's obvious that you need to pay for products.

    I'm not sure where you're going with this post.

    Here's the deal:

    At one point before smartphones became widely adopted, data plans weren't mandatory.
    But they are for other services, advertised with the BlackBerry (eg. email, BBM, etc)

    Yes bbm is FREE for your device like many other free instant messaging application.
    Have you read the previous posts in this thread?

    *lastly, for those who endlessly rants/whines on that extra buck for BIS; its not for u then. Simple. But then too I would like to make them realize.
    It seems that you do not understand our position. We are not whining, we're suggesting that BBM be offered for Wi-Fi only users. We find it surprising that it is not, as the BlackBerry is a communication tool, where it's crippled when not connected to a mobile carrier.

    *U purchase an iphone/android (we really don't have any other thing in market so I gave these two names), you get a DATAPLAN, you PAY for that plan, you get things done ur way, you then get an instant messaging app(Whatsapp, live, chaton..), u use it.
    Again, please read the previous posts about iMessage and other things offered by other companies, as well as our reasoning in those posts. It seems like you haven't even skimmed over them =\

    Its pretty much the same, isn't it?
    No sir.


    But wait, the whiners expect more out of BB than iphone/android. So get BB services activated and PAY for that EXTRA features then. Rim is a corporate, they are their to earn money.
    1) There*, corporation*,
    2) In this thread, mentioned repeatedly, we believe that these "extra" features you talk about should not, in fact, be extra. Instead, they should be enabled on our own Wi-Fi networks. How do you think Apple makes iMessage works? Through their own servers, of course.

    Maybe it's just me, but the responses I'm getting seem to be repetitive and flawed in reasoning.
    05-16-12 03:21 PM
  5. gtpointer's Avatar
    Despite all this back and forth about the cost of BBM/BIS everyone seems to be agreeing that it would be better if BBM worked without BIS, and so more generally that BIS is something to be scrapped...yes?
    05-16-12 03:32 PM
  6. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    Here's the deal:

    At one point before smartphones became widely adopted, data plans weren't mandatory......

    Hmmmmm.....

    But they are for other services, advertised with the BlackBerry (eg. email, BBM, etc)
    You only quoted one of my points, but left out the majority. So if we only use what you quoted, at one time, people could get a BlackBerry without a data plan, (and to use part of the remainder not quoted) Carriers offered the BlackBerry data plans at the same price as the generic plans.

    So, I am paying the price for a data plan which was the same price offered for any smartphone at the time I bought my first BlackBerry.

    I'm also paying less for a data plan than someone buying a new smartphone today, be it a Blackberry or other brand on T-Mobile. Do you think the data costs T-Mobile more for data used by new customers than it costs to provide it to me? No, T-Mobile (and other carriers) raised the rate for BlackBerry customers and also made data plans mandatory a few years ago.
    05-16-12 03:45 PM
  7. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Despite all this back and forth about the cost of BBM/BIS everyone seems to be agreeing that it would be better if BBM worked without BIS, and so more generally that BIS is something to be scrapped...yes?
    Isn't BBM powered by the BlackBerry servers, aka BIS? You could scrap the BIS push email but how would BBM work without the servers?
    05-16-12 04:00 PM
  8. mphillips828's Avatar
    Isn't BBM powered by the BlackBerry servers, aka BIS? You could scrap the BIS push email but how would BBM work without the servers?

    Good question, and really back to the main area of this thread! thanks for asking and hopefully we can discuss how BBM will work without BIS, and if its possible to have BBM work through RIM's servers without BIS...

    Whether BIS or BBM is free or not, who has some input on whether BBM can work without BIS and offer the same security.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    05-16-12 04:54 PM
  9. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Despite all this back and forth about the cost of BBM/BIS everyone seems to be agreeing that it would be better if BBM worked without BIS, and so more generally that BIS is something to be scrapped...yes?
    Nope
    I don't agree at all
    05-16-12 05:25 PM
  10. sam_b77's Avatar
    Nope
    I don't agree at all
    I can't believe this is still going on....*shakes head and goes to sleep*.
    05-16-12 05:28 PM
  11. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Nope
    I don't agree at all
    Me either.
    05-16-12 05:29 PM
  12. Snuupy's Avatar
    You only quoted one of my points, but left out the majority.
    Yep, I agreed with most of your points, they made sense.

    Isn't BBM powered by the BlackBerry servers, aka BIS? You could scrap the BIS push email but how would BBM work without the servers?
    Who said to scrap the servers?
    05-17-12 12:53 AM
  13. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Yep, I agreed with most of your points, they made sense.



    Who said to scrap the servers?
    You did, if BBM is run by the BIS servers and you want BBM without BIS.............
    05-17-12 01:22 AM
  14. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I honestly can't believe some of the stuff in this thread..

    Here is the deal:

    With an iPhone you buy the hardware. With the hardware, you get access to iMessage, the AppStore, Email, and tons of other "value added" incentives. If you want to use the phone wirelessly, you have to pay for a data plan or use wifi. If you pay for a data plan (meaning you bought the phone subsidized), you pay for the HARDWARE over the life of the contract.

    When you buy a Blackberry you get access to SOME of the applications without a data plan. Therefore, you must purchase a subscription on top of what you paid for the phone. You are still paying for the HARDWARE over the life of the contract on top of being locked into a data service in order to have any access to those applications.

    BIS is like a six pack of beer. You buy the six pack, you get all of the beer. You can't say that BBM is free. That would be like the supermarket telling you that your six pack of beer is now a five pack.. and you got the last one for free.

    If you want to say that RIM is a software company, fine. I will go with you all the way on that. Don't act like RIM is being a nice guy and giving away free services though. If I buy a Blackberry at full price I will never be able to use those services until I'm locked in a data plan. As a developer, this kind of sucks. I want to be to switch devices when I need to test stuff out. I also want to be able to use a phone that I paid a lot of money for. With an iPhone, I get a generic data plan that I can use to get all services on WP7, iOS, and Android.
    as so many like to do,
    Lets take make a car analogy.

    Data plans are the feul
    Android, iOS, WP7, all run on Gasoline
    BlackBerry runs on Diesel, (* EDIT: hehe diesel uses compression which makes this even more fitting)

    You don't NEED to have data to work on these devices apps, you can work all day on the car without having fuel in it, but if you want to drive it you need the right kind of fuel,
    and personally, I like my Diesel phone
    05-17-12 07:01 AM
  15. gtpointer's Avatar
    Nope
    I don't agree at all
    Me either.
    Does this mean you just want BBM not on BIS, but keep BIS for everything else or have I got that wrong too? More generally, why do you want to keep BIS?
    05-17-12 07:14 AM
  16. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Does this mean you just want BBM not on BIS, but keep BIS for everything else or have I got that wrong too? More generally, why do you want to keep BIS?

    No this means I like the technology behind BBM and BIS,

    And I DO NOT want to see RIM change their NOC infrastructure, or technologies tied to it,
    Those who don't like the RIM technology should use another platform, RIM needs to bring in the flare which hopefully BB10 will bring, without compromising the core, which BIS / BES are part of.

    There are extensive postings about what BIS/BES brings to BlackBerry,
    and you can't just say remove BIS, but keep BES, because the device development is built at the CORE to support the infrastructure, RIM would fragment devices completely and KILL any chances at BYOD sales if they made BES exclusive phones, then consumer activesync phones
    05-17-12 07:23 AM
  17. gtpointer's Avatar
    No this means I like the technology behind BBM and BIS,

    And I DO NOT want to see RIM change their NOC infrastructure, or technologies tied to it,
    Those who don't like the RIM technology should use another platform, RIM needs to bring in the flare which hopefully BB10 will bring, without compromising the core, which BIS / BES are part of.

    There are extensive postings about what BIS/BES brings to BlackBerry,
    and you can't just say remove BIS, but keep BES, because the device development is built at the CORE to support the infrastructure, RIM would fragment devices completely and KILL any chances at BYOD sales if they made BES exclusive phones, then consumer activesync phones
    Fair enough...I thought you said that earlier...I'm perhaps a little too groggy today to be engaging in this discussion!

    I was more interested in your personal likes about BIS, but fair enough.

    On the BES fragmentation point...BES is on its way out to be replaced by mobile fusion. If BES is being revamped/replaced in this way, so surely can BIS?
    05-17-12 07:27 AM
  18. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Fair enough...I thought you said that earlier...I'm perhaps a little too groggy today to be engaging in this discussion!

    I was more interested in your personal likes about BIS, but fair enough.

    On the BES fragmentation point...BES is on its way out to be replaced by mobile fusion. If BES is being revamped/replaced in this way, so surely can BIS?
    It is my understanding that BES will still exist within Mobile fusion, and the core of BlackBerry will still be based on communicating with a single server, mobile fusion is being used to tunnel devices that don't tie into BES's methods as sort of a Bridge.

    But Mobile fusion is essentially Bringing BES/BIS like tendencies to non BlackBerry devices, it isn't removing BES/BIS from BlackBerry



    My Personal likes about BIS are the very easy email set up of my multiple email accounts with multiple servers, both free and paid for.

    I very much appreciate the compression BIS brings as I travel to the US paying $1/MB of data when I do, which would result in very large bills if I did not have the 4:1 compression average, BBM being compressed is ALSO very important to me,

    I appreciate the technology of the BIS, it lends its self to a more secured experience, though on my BIS phone it is not as important as my BES phone, I still appreciate the device not having the ability to have my info redirected as easily

    RIM's Push technology is tied to BIS/BES and the devices, they work as 1 team this does reduce the battery drain, RIM's hardware teams are the ones screwing it up by constantly decreasing the size of the battery while competitors increase their battery sizes
    05-17-12 07:42 AM
  19. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Does this mean you just want BBM not on BIS, but keep BIS for everything else or have I got that wrong too? More generally, why do you want to keep BIS?
    I like BIS service the way it is, it does what it says on the box. I agree with derusset, if you want something else buy something else, I like and need BIS the way it is now.
    05-17-12 07:42 AM
  20. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I also roam pretty often, every time I cross from Northern Ireland to Ireland I'm roaming and it's only 40 minutes drive away. Compression is very important.

    I also have a non exchange hosted email account, well two really, and my wife has a simple pop3 email from her work. Other platform still don't have push email for that. BIS makes them push.
    05-17-12 07:51 AM
  21. Alex_Hong's Avatar
    Same here. I hope that BIS will remain as what it is and maybe more in BB10. I don't want to see anything taken away.

    What I think RIM needs to do with BIS on BB10, is to offer more services with it. Then market it and show people what it does and its advantages. A majority of normal consumers typically wouldn't even know what BIS does. They only know that its the thing you have to pay more, in order to use a blackberry. Even most sales rep in my country can't even explain BIS. Which isn't exactly good for RIM.

    I went to a Lumia 800 less than a week ago. Just yesterday I went back to a Bold 9700. Mainly because of BIS. the lumia 800 is a great phone without a doubt, with lots to like about it. But overall I like BIS services even more. I can be on my 9000, 9900, or 9360 and still enjoy the phone thoroughly, simply because its on BIS.

    In my country, a BIS plan with 3GB of data is slightly more expensive than a normal data plan with 12GB. But despite that I still feel that the service is worth the price. , I think its dirt cheap. In fact, I have a normal data plan with BIS added on, meaning 12+3gb since tethering is included. (in case I use too much wifi hotspot on my playbook or laptop). I am paying more, but I still find it to be worth the price I'm paying.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9700 using Tapatalk
    05-17-12 08:12 AM
  22. Alex_Hong's Avatar
    Oh, and just to add to that. My country doesn't even have BB podcast, news, and traffic.

    Which also reminds me. RIM needs to push out these services to more countries. As it stands currently, its still very limited. Just look at nokia. They're doing a great job with their nokia apps. You can use nokia drive pretty much in all countries. That's a turn by turn voice navigation app, and its free.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9700 using Tapatalk
    05-17-12 08:24 AM
  23. gtpointer's Avatar
    I feel it's a little simplistic to say if you don't like BIS go elsewhere...there's lots of other things about blackberry to like, and it's not as if everyone hasn't got a list of things they'd like to change with BB10...not sure why BIS is being given this sacred status.
    05-17-12 10:13 AM
  24. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I feel it's a little simplistic to say if you don't like BIS go elsewhere...there's lots of other things about blackberry to like, and it's not as if everyone hasn't got a list of things they'd like to change with BB10...not sure why BIS is being given this sacred status.
    It saved me a small fortune in the last 4 years.

    Besides, BIS is the BlackBerry experience, it's easy to say get rid but think what you would have to give up.
    Last edited by belfastdispatcher; 05-17-12 at 10:31 AM.
    05-17-12 10:26 AM
  25. gtpointer's Avatar
    It saved me a small fortune in the last 4 years.

    Besides, BIS is the BlackBerry experience, it's easy to say get rid but think what you would have to give up.
    Complete rubbish to say BIS is the blackberry experience, so many things it is applauded for you don't experience they just happen - like security, and data compression. Only thing you properly experience is push, and I'm sure the minds at RIM can come up with an alternative that doesn't require full on BIS.

    Whilst security is great, most consumers don't need it to the extent it occurs at the moment - certainly not all data needs to go through RIM's servers, web browsing could be spared this for the gain in speed we would get. Messaging, particularly BBM would still have to go through RIM's servers to some extent, giving security over them, but this wouldn't require all out BIS. Most of the consumer security concerns on other platforms are more to do with app permissions over access to data, which BIS doesn't help with. BIS doesn't provide anywhere near the same security as BES also.

    Finally, compression - isn't a huge thing for me, and I've read elsewhere on the forums it doesn't work for pictures/videos etc. so you only save on the text and the like of web pages which means it isn't that significant. Admittedly I don't know much about this myself but I'm personally not swayed by it.

    Also, from RIM's perspective: if it scraps BIS it's not going to drive people who like it away - they have no where else to get such a solution - whilst it might bring back consumers. BIS as a concept isn't very consumer friendly, and certainly if it stays there should be no consumer facing mention of it in the OS.
    05-17-12 11:05 AM
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