05-20-12 04:57 AM
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  1. OniBerry's Avatar
    Ok

    10 Chars

    Sent from my fingers on a 9900 using Tapatalk
    pkcable likes this.
    05-15-12 11:43 AM
  2. BlackBerry Guy's Avatar
    We all are of different opinions as to what constitutes free, device acquisition costs aside.

    But the facts are:
    - BBM will not work without a BIS enabled data plan of some sort.
    - BBM (or your email or browser for that matter) will not work if you chose not to have a data plan and just use your BlackBerry like a feature phone with PDA like abilities over wifi. You can use something like say, an iPod touch which are wifi only, to access email, browser, iMessage etc. But a BlackBerry will not work this way.

    We are essentially paying our carriers to allow us to setup our BlackBerries for access to the RIM servers through which things like email, BBM etc are dependent on. Whether you choose to look at BBM by itself, or look at the data services as a whole, one way or another, you're paying not for the app itself, but for it's use. Whether one calls that free or not is entirely up to them.




    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    05-15-12 12:19 PM
  3. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    So if I go to a baker every day to buy a loaf of bread and one day he decides, since I'm such a good customer, he will also throw in a bagel(bbm) from now on every time I buy a loaf of bread from him, will that bagel not be free? After another while he decides to give me a pancake too(blackberry maps) every time I buy my loaf of bread, would that also not be free?

    Sure, I still have to pay for the bread.
    05-15-12 12:31 PM
  4. reeneebob's Avatar
    The sound you hear is me beating my head against the desk at work.

    Sent from my BlackBerry Bold 9900 using Tapatalk
    05-15-12 12:34 PM
  5. spike12's Avatar
    So... back on topic.. is BBM going to work without BIS?
    05-15-12 12:36 PM
  6. sam_b77's Avatar
    Both Belfast and Oniberry have a point here.

    Thing is Belfast is right about BBM working on wifi as long as a BIS is subscribed to. And Oniberry ks right about having to pay your bill through the carriers (via a very funny post).

    I remember reading in the BlackBerry book, that when they got the system working, Mike L. went for collaborations with the carriers because he realised that RIM was 1) not big enough to put in place a support structure to manage customer billing and support and 2) If they tried to put up their own networks by passing the carriers then the carriers would beat them down, plus they could just piggy back on existing wireless networks. This is why the bill has to be paid to the carriers.

    WiFi came on the scene much later and as such RIM added the functionality as the carriers didn't care as long as they got their cut and RIM still got paid.

    RIM could surely make BBM work on wifi alone without the need of a BIS plan from the carriers. But the question here, Belfast, is how will RIM collect the fees? They have no infrastructure to collect it. And that's why I think RIM will not make BBM work over wifi without BIS plan unless they can find a way to get payed directly by the user and support the users.
    Last edited by sam_b77; 05-15-12 at 12:40 PM.
    05-15-12 12:37 PM
  7. OniBerry's Avatar
    So... back on topic.. is BBM going to work without BIS?
    Only time will tell, I hope so.
    05-15-12 12:38 PM
  8. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Both Belfast and Oniberry have a point here.

    Thing is Belfast is right about BBM working on wifi as long as a BIS is subscribed to. And Oniberry ks right about having to pay your bill through the carriers (via a very funny post).

    I remember reading in the BlackBerry book, that when they got the system working, Mike L. went for collaborations with the carriers because he realised that RIM was 1) not big enough to put in place a support structure to manage customer billing and support and 2) If they tried to put up their own networks by passing the carriers then the carriers would beat them down, plus they could just piggy back on existing wireless networks. This is why the bill has to be paid to the carriers.

    WiFi came on the scene much later and as such RIM added the functionality as the carriers didn't care as long as they got their cut and RIM still got paid.

    RIM could surely make BBM work on wifi alone without the need of a BIS plan from the carriers. But the question here, Belfast, is how will RIM collect the fees? They have no infrastructure to collect it. And that's why I think RIM will not make BBM work over wifi without BIS plan unless they can find a way to get payed directly by the user and support the users.
    Oh, I don't think they should provide a WIFI only service, Blackberry is a mobile solution, WIFI is not mobile. Why should the give away a free service to people that don't want to spend any money buying from RIM? Doesn't make sense.
    05-15-12 12:43 PM
  9. sam_b77's Avatar
    Oh, I don't think they should provide a WIFI only service, Blackberry is a mobile solution, WIFI is not mobile. Why should the give away a free service to people that don't want to spend any money buying from RIM? Doesn't make sense.
    Well the customers would be buying a phone from RIM .
    05-15-12 12:46 PM
  10. pkcable's Avatar
    So if I go to a baker every day to buy a loaf of bread and one day he decides, since I'm such a good customer, he will also throw in a bagel(bbm) from now on every time I buy a loaf of bread from him, will that bagel not be free? After another while he decides to give me a pancake too(blackberry maps) every time I buy my loaf of bread, would that also not be free?

    Sure, I still have to pay for the bread.
    This is actually a pretty good analogy. These are what we call value added services, and are what companies do to keep us loyal to and dependant upon their product or company. Apple and Google do it too, with the ability to keep your apps in the cloud (we have that also), and iOS's facetime video chat system, and the biggie for google was the free voice turn by turn GPS they have/had on some of their models (not sure if they are still doing that). BBM is one of THE big value added services for the BB platform.
    05-15-12 12:49 PM
  11. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Well the customers would be buying a phone from RIM .

    Who lol, who's gonna buy a new BlackBerry just to use on wifi?
    05-15-12 12:49 PM
  12. sam_b77's Avatar
    Who lol, who's gonna buy a new BlackBerry just to use on wifi?
    The ones who keep crying about having to pay "extra" for BIS to get their mails, BBM, and Internet to work .
    Last edited by sam_b77; 05-15-12 at 12:56 PM.
    05-15-12 12:52 PM
  13. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    This is actually a pretty good analogy. These are what we call value added services, and are what companies do to keep us loyal to and dependant upon their product or company. Apple and Google do it too, with the ability to keep your apps in the cloud (we have that also), and iOS's facetime video chat system, and the biggie for google was the free voice turn by turn GPS they have/had on some of their models (not sure if they are still doing that). BBM is one of THE big value added services for the BB platform.
    At last, you're seeing sense lol
    05-15-12 12:58 PM
  14. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    RIM could surely make BBM work on wifi alone without the need of a BIS plan from the carriers. But the question here, Belfast, is how will RIM collect the fees? They have no infrastructure to collect it. And that's why I think RIM will not make BBM work over wifi without BIS plan unless they can find a way to get payed directly by the user and support the users.
    For RIM to make BBM work on wifi alone

    RIM would need to build internal servers to hold the PIN information, PIN's are stored on Carrier BIS's or Enterprise BES's and that is how the information is currently distributed to devices.

    though this threads initial speculation was that RIM has moved BBM to a BBID system.
    05-15-12 01:33 PM
  15. sam_b77's Avatar
    For RIM to make BBM work on wifi alone

    RIM would need to build internal servers to hold the PIN information, PIN's are stored on Carrier BIS's or Enterprise BES's and that is how the information is currently distributed to devices.

    though this threads initial speculation was that RIM has moved BBM to a BBID system.
    Even with BBID, they would have to solve the tricky situation of collecting fees from users. That itself is a cost, not to mention that once you deal directly with a customer, you also have to provide direct support to the customer. I think BIS will still pretty much be through the carriers.
    05-15-12 01:38 PM
  16. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Even with BBID, they would have to solve the tricky situation of collecting fees from users. That itself is a cost, not to mention that once you deal directly with a customer, you also have to provide direct support to the customer. I think BIS will still pretty much be through the carriers.
    I don't disagree.

    BBM without BIS is a stupid idea if RIM ever does it
    05-15-12 01:43 PM
  17. mphillips828's Avatar
    RIM doing BBM without BIS is a dumb idea I agree...BUT there is one situation in which it makes sense for RIM to include...

    RIM releases a BB10 Media Player Device (similar to iPod Touch) and they want to unify the BBM and BB experience...and even WiFi only Tablets...this would be the only reason they would and should add WIFI BBM...would allow people to have their phone and then a WIFI PlayBook and be able to access their BBM without bridging the phone/tablet

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    05-15-12 03:56 PM
  18. OniBerry's Avatar
    @mphillips828 - I really hope they don't do that. Sounds like a Zune waiting to happen. I think it would make sense if RIM planned on keeping a WiFi model of the PlayBook, but if they (RIM) plan on doing away with that (can't imagine why though), then the point could be argued either way. Even the iPad can use iMessage on a WiFi only model (I know iMessage and BBM are NOT the same, but they both represent iOS and BBOS/10's flagship IM clients) You can explain the benefits of BBM over this and that, but at the end of the day, they (John and Jane Q. Taxpayer) just want to message people and know it will get to them.

    I just want RIM to focus on BB10 and getting that out on time and with the minimum amount of bugs After that, they can work on whatever...LoL
    05-15-12 04:59 PM
  19. gtpointer's Avatar
    Argh. Why does everyone keep thinking that RIM is going to persist with requiring any charge for access to its servers? Yes it does charge...someone...at the moment, and it may be a significant amount of revenue, but it may also make sense to sacrifice this revenue to ensure the health of the company in the long run. If BBM works through BBID rather than PIN (a good thing considering PIN is a thoroughly outdated and pointless model) then no charging is necessary nor does it make sense. Run BBM through the internet, it will then work on PB and BB10 phones easily and simply through RIM NOC much like imessage (although better as RIM's infrastructure and app coding is better than Apple's in this regard) and everyone will be happy. BIS offers nowhere near the advantages of BES so why use it as a model for BBM when there is little reason to any more. If the PIN system goes, then so should BIS.
    05-15-12 05:33 PM
  20. techdon1's Avatar
    Clearly anyone championing other Data plans and networks over RIM's is miss-informed. From the street consumer to the senior officers in the Telecom industry (phone makers and Service providers) have all admitted how far ahead BIS / BES is compared to others. Whether they choose to send BBM traffic out of that is a completely different topic - my take?? those who pay for BIS / BES send their traffic there to ensure efficiency, those who opt out, no biggie, just ensure the disclaimers explain the latency differences.
    05-15-12 07:10 PM
  21. Snuupy's Avatar
    So if I go to a baker every day to buy a loaf of bread and one day he decides, since I'm such a good customer, he will also throw in a bagel(bbm) from now on every time I buy a loaf of bread from him, will that bagel not be free? After another while he decides to give me a pancake too(blackberry maps) every time I buy my loaf of bread, would that also not be free?
    Your analogy is incorrect in the sense that the product is bought, and we shouldn't need to pay more to utilize its services.

    Let me explain.

    We see BBM as that loaf of bread that one should be able to eat whenever one wants, with whatever sauces wanted, and however wanted (eg. by cutting it into pieces, by eating it in one bite, etc) after purchasing it.

    We do not pay to eat that loaf of bread that we have bought, as that would just be ridiculous. In fact, we are able to utilize its features to the fullest, which in the case of the bread, is to fill our tummies up and to taste good.

    Comparable to our BlackBerry devices, I believe that we should pay once, and be able to use the features continuously. In fact, BBM is an advertised feature of BlackBerry devices, just like how bread is for tasting good, as well as filling us up. Just like how you'd pay only once to buy that loaf of bread, and you would be able to eat it, we should purchase our devices once, and be able to use all of its features at any point in time, whether with a data plan or not, whether with BIS/BES or not.

    Sure, you can hand us a few extra bagels, but the point is that we have bought the bread (the device), and we should be able to use it and its features (including BBM), at any point in time, as the service is advertised as a feature of the device.

    I don't disagree.

    BBM without BIS is a stupid idea if RIM ever does it
    Why's that?


    BBM already works on WIFI.
    With a data plan, yes. I'm talking with solely a connection to Wi-Fi.

    Please clarify your posts, and explain the full picture, instead of only stating what makes your points look better. You seem to be biased in this thread =\
    Last edited by Snuupy; 05-16-12 at 01:19 AM.
    05-16-12 01:16 AM
  22. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Your analogy is incorrect in the sense that the product is bought, and we shouldn't need to pay more to utilize its services.

    Let me explain.

    We see BBM as that loaf of bread that one should be able to eat whenever one wants, with whatever sauces wanted, and however wanted (eg. by cutting it into pieces, by eating it in one bite, etc) after purchasing it.

    We do not pay to eat that loaf of bread that we have bought, as that would just be ridiculous. In fact, we are able to utilize its features to the fullest, which in the case of the bread, is to fill our tummies up and to taste good.

    Comparable to our BlackBerry devices, I believe that we should pay once, and be able to use the features continuously. In fact, BBM is an advertised feature of BlackBerry devices, just like how bread is for tasting good, as well as filling us up. Just like how you'd pay only once to buy that loaf of bread, and you would be able to eat it, we should purchase our devices once, and be able to use all of its features at any point in time, whether with a data plan or not, whether with BIS/BES or not.

    Sure, you can hand us a few extra bagels, but the point is that we have bought the bread (the device), and we should be able to use it and its features (including BBM), at any point in time, as the service is advertised as a feature of the device.



    Why's that?




    With a data plan, yes. I'm talking with solely a connection to Wi-Fi.

    Please clarify your posts, and explain the full picture, instead of only stating what makes your points look better. You seem to be biased in this thread =\
    Can I point out a BlackBerry is a mobile phone, mobile being the key word. Why would you buy a 500(full price) phone just to use on wifi? You can buy a very decent laptop for that kind of money. Or an IPad. And by the way, wifi aint free either, that's also a "data plan"
    05-16-12 01:32 AM
  23. Snuupy's Avatar
    Can I point out a BlackBerry is a mobile phone, mobile being the key word. Why would you buy a 500(full price) phone just to use on wifi? You can buy a very decent laptop for that kind of money. Or an IPad. And by the way, wifi aint free either, that's also a "data plan"
    The point isn't "why" we would do so, but the fact that we can do so, and the fact that it is advertised as a free service, when in fact it is not. I thought that argument had already been addressed. You can eat that loaf of bread whenever you want, without "extra charges".

    You're comparing two different things - Laptops are advertised for work, an internet service plan for internet. Their purposes are different, and it's advertised that a laptop needs internet to send emails, browse the web, etc. In fact, a laptop can do all these things with Wi-Fi.

    BlackBerry devices support Wi-Fi, and again, by advertising that BBM is free, it should be free (over Wi-FI, of course, as you need a method of transmitting data), without restrictions (currently, Carriers, plans, etc).

    In my opinion, BlackBerry devices should be able to even send emails, through POP/IMAP servers, through Wi-Fi (again, without any service plan), but that's not the point (and can be done with other apps, like LogicMail. Blackberry devices should be able to BBM through Wi-Fi without any other requirement, as it's advertised as a reliable, effective, communication tool.
    05-16-12 10:47 AM
  24. TrevMoore's Avatar
    I honestly can't believe some of the stuff in this thread..

    Here is the deal:

    With an iPhone you buy the hardware. With the hardware, you get access to iMessage, the AppStore, Email, and tons of other "value added" incentives. If you want to use the phone wirelessly, you have to pay for a data plan or use wifi. If you pay for a data plan (meaning you bought the phone subsidized), you pay for the HARDWARE over the life of the contract.

    When you buy a Blackberry you get access to SOME of the applications without a data plan. Therefore, you must purchase a subscription on top of what you paid for the phone. You are still paying for the HARDWARE over the life of the contract on top of being locked into a data service in order to have any access to those applications.

    BIS is like a six pack of beer. You buy the six pack, you get all of the beer. You can't say that BBM is free. That would be like the supermarket telling you that your six pack of beer is now a five pack.. and you got the last one for free.

    If you want to say that RIM is a software company, fine. I will go with you all the way on that. Don't act like RIM is being a nice guy and giving away free services though. If I buy a Blackberry at full price I will never be able to use those services until I'm locked in a data plan. As a developer, this kind of sucks. I want to be to switch devices when I need to test stuff out. I also want to be able to use a phone that I paid a lot of money for. With an iPhone, I get a generic data plan that I can use to get all services on WP7, iOS, and Android.
    05-16-12 11:00 AM
  25. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Why's that?
    RIM generates upwards of 4 Billion dollars a year in Service revenue though BIS/BES plans. by offering BBM without requiring BIS/BES service many of the consumer grade BlackBerry devices would NOT get a BIS plan cutting RIM's service revenue which is the high margin revenue,

    The balance RIM would have to do is, Can they increase over all sales of FULL featured phones enough that the hardware revenue and profit will replace the profit and revenue of BIS/BES subscriptions? Realistically They wont see that kind of consumer adoption of devices with high margin to make up that service revenue ever.

    additionally RIM would fragment their system if they made a Consumer grade BBM that didn't use the NOC and an Enterprise BBM that did use the NOC, and for Enterprise BBM is the most secure communication they can use, it doesn't even go through the exchange server.

    Also RIM's primary push technology is based off of BIS/BES servers pushing to RIM, part of RIM's battery life is due to this, RIMs current mistakes are using TINY batteries in their devices competing against phones with 50-75% more juice, but they hold their own in life due to RIM's much lower drain, RIM just needs to move back to bigger batteries.
    05-16-12 11:22 AM
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