[Omnitech]

Actually, this is not a FACT. These retail people may be speaking out of ignorance or limited information based on what they've read online.

So they are truthfully speaking what they know. It's up to Blackberry to fix this by serious advertisement and working with the carriers to disseminate information down to the ranks.

LOL.

Yeah, the poor ignoramus slobs.

Guess what: I don't buy it. I used to do their job, remember?

I don't cut salespeople in technology industries much slack when it comes to industry or technology ignorance, sorry.

It's their job to know these things, period.


EDIT: And if they go in without knowledge, it is the job of their employer to ensure they are properly trained, and know BASICS.

There is not a car salesperson in the world that does not know whether Ford or GM or Honda or Toyota are still in business. Those are some of the most fundamental facts of the industry that ANYONE should be well aware of.

There are not that many smartphone vendors in the US market. Not knowing whether or not one of the most famous ones is still in business or not is either WILLFUL ignorance, or deception. (Could be on the part of their employer too - I'm quite sure there are employers that feed malleable staff BS information that they think serves their business objectives too. The end-result is the same.)

[texazzpete]

LOL.

Yeah, the poor ignoramus slobs.

Guess what: I don't buy it. I used to do their job, remember?

I don't cut salespeople in technology industries much slack when it comes to industry or technology ignorance, sorry.

It's their job to know these things, period.


EDIT: And if they go in without knowledge, it is the job of their employer to ensure they are properly trained, and know BASICS.

There is not a car salesperson in the world that does not know whether Ford or GM or Honda or Toyota are still in business. Those are some of the most fundamental facts of the industry that ANYONE should be well aware of.

There are not that many smartphone vendors in the US market. Not knowing whether or not one of the most famous ones is still in business or not is either WILLFUL ignorance, or deception. (Could be on the part of their employer too - I'm quite sure there are employers that feed malleable staff BS information that they think serves their business objectives too. The end-result is the same.)

Most of them are consumers, and an overwhelming number of them use iOS and Android. Blackberry is virtually perceived as an old, also-ran company. Not too much of a stretch to imagine that many only have a vague idea of what Blackberry is up to. With limited store presence and a very muted ad campaign, it's not much of a stretch to see how a sales assistant may not know what's going on.

Nice of you to compare with Ford, GM, Honda etc, but BlackBerry does not occupy anything near that level of lofty status anymore.

[Omnitech]

Most of them are consumers, and an overwhelming number of them use iOS and Android. Blackberry is virtually perceived as an old, also-ran company. Not too much of a stretch to imagine that many only have a vague idea of what Blackberry is up to. With limited store presence and a very muted ad campaign, it's not much of a stretch to see how a sales assistant may not know what's going on.

Nice of you to compare with Ford, GM, Honda etc, but BlackBerry does not occupy anything near that level of lofty status anymore.

As far as brand recognition, I'm pretty sure they do. Certainly not in terms of current marketshare, but that's a very different matter.

Once again, I stand by what I wrote: I don't cut so-called "industry professionals" much slack when it comes to basic ignorance of the industry. I don't give a flying %$^&* which products are their favorites.

When I was in retail, I didn't just magically forget about any product that didn't appeal to me personally. That's the difference between a professional and a hack.

These are not stock-clerks at WalMart.

[anon(5828343)]

Well I can tell you that Samsung is well-known for spending gobs of money on sales incentives to sell their products, including direct spiffs to salespeople.

And I don't doubt that has an influence on sales.

Unfortunately BlackBerry is not in a position to be throwing money around like that.

However my point is not that salespeople should be "pushing BlackBerry over all the alternatives", my point is that sales staff should at minimum, not engage in deceptive and malicious lies to attempt to actively undermine the sales of the brand, and if you are signed-up as a reseller to sell the product, FFS, at least make the product available to customers who ask for it.

If they are partial to the brand and product and wish for it to succeed, why not? Are you one of those people who ridicule anyone with a passion or a belief in something?

No, but as I wrote above, minimum effort to not actively sabotage sales should be the LEAST a company should be able to expect from a business-partner.

The onus, frankly, is on Blackberry to compete for the attention of the third party sales forces. If BBRY does not have the resources to compete against Samsung's sales incentives, then too bad, so sad for BBRY but there is nothing unlawful or unethical about what Samsung does and nothing unlawful or unethical about the salespersons at the various carriers' outlets responding to those incentives.

Sadly, unlike Samsung, BBRY sat back for years and relied on being the strongest smartphone brand to fuel sales and growth. After Apple and, now, Samsung gained traction, one would have thought that BBRY would shift gears and redouble its sales and marketing efforts. But it didn't and these are the fruits of its labor (or lack thereof). Couple that with a poor product reputation and one can see how frontline sales staff aren't too keen to push BBRY when other, more lucrative alternatives exist.

[raino]

And Samsung have their "Experience" stores. Very nice they are too.

Are these Australia-specific stores? I don't think I've seen one here in the US, except from the previously mentioned section inside Best Buy. I'll have to check my local BB's Samsung section to see if they sell SIM-free phones.

That's because they have made special arrangements with the carriers . This is what you can get if you build positive relationships. Bbry used to do it well in the past.
Trying to be aggressive with carriers just won't have a good business outcome

Source for the special arrangements part? What business (carriers) would intentionally sign off on a deal that takes away business from them (postpaid activations in lieu of a subsidy,) which SIM-free phones do?

[Skyforever]

I'm just curious, what motivates someone to go from store to store to engage the staff in a discussion about Blackberry? I can understand doing so when you're in the process of actually getting a device but I don't quite get it when you go from Bell to Telus to Rogers or Verizon to T-mobile to AT&T to see what the sales staff reactions are to Blackberry.

The marketplace isn't a democracy where retailers are obligated to provide equal treatment to all brands and devices. Each retailer will decide what to promote based on their best commercial interests.

Isn't it futile to debate the merits of Blackberry with a retail associate at a store who likely earns his/her living on a commission and thus will want to push products that: a) actually sell in large enough volumes so he can make his commission and other incentives; b) that, from his/her experience has the greatest amount of market interest to ensure a sale?

Given every conceivable sales statistic available, for a retailer to expend the same effort/resources to sell any BB device as they would a Samsung or iPhone device would be a foolish investment. Perhaps that is the reason why BBRY decided not to pursue/expand its own efforts to set up proprietary retail outlets (Blackberry stores) since doing so was not profitable.

Why would anyone expect carrier X or Y to have its staff push a product fewer and fewer people are willing to pay for?

Really. It's one thing to push a product, but completely another to lie about a product and its' company and do everything to talk people out of purchasing it.

What some of us are saying is it would be cool and professional if the sales person would tell the potential customer what the BlackBerry can do, (if he/she is asking for or about a BlackBerry phone it would be relevant). Having done that, the salesperson could also mention the iphone, or the Samsung or some other phone to help make sure the customer is well informed of what else is available.

This would be more along the lines of what one should expect from a salesperson. Not this attitude problem so many sales people display in carrier retails stores as regards BlackBerry, and BlackBerry phones.

I believe BlackBerry is going to survive despite it all, but it goes without saying this travesty, should not be happening.

Honestly, I'm surprised that it has gone on this long, and based on the reactions of peoples experience with carrier retail stores in general as mentioned on CB, unfortunately it's not going to be stopping anytime soon.

[anon(5828343)]

Really. It's one thing to push a product, but completely another to lie about a product and its' company and do everything to talk people out of purchasing it.

What some of us are saying is it would be cool and professional if the sales person would tell the potential customer what the BlackBerry can do, (if he/she is asking for or about a BlackBerry phone it would be relevant). Having done that, the salesperson could also mention the iphone, or the Samsung or some other phone to help make sure the customer is well informed of what else is available.

This would be more along the lines of what one should expect from a salesperson. Not this attitude problem so many sales people display in carrier retails stores as regards BlackBerry, and BlackBerry phones.

I believe BlackBerry is going to survive despite it all, but it goes without saying this travesty, should not be happening.

Honestly, I'm surprised that it has gone on this long, and based on the reactions of peoples experience with carrier retail stores in general as mentioned on CB, unfortunately it's not going to be stopping anytime soon.

So what is Blackberry doing about it?

Does Blackberry recognize they have a problem?

Why is it that Blackberry is the only brand that is afflicted by this seeming problem?

The constant "Blackberry is so hard done by" song and dance is a little tiring. It seems as though Blackberry's problems is everyone else's fault:

- salespersons who are conspiring against them;
- carriers for launching initiatives against them;
- consumers for failing to recognize how great BB10 devices truly, really are;
- the news media for failing to understand how great BBRY and its management have managed the situation;
- financial analysts for constantly focusing on the negative;
- tech observers who have failed to understand what BBRY/BB10 can really do;
- former BB users who have betrayed BBRY

And the list goes on and on! What is missing from that list? BBRY and its board and management who took the world's leading innovator in smartphones and turned it into a has been by failing to recognize the innovation that was needed.

Funny how BBRY is now hanging much of its future on Apple using QNX for its car integration platform.

[ramxx]

T-mobile reps are not the brightest in the sack

No such thing, as long as Blackberry stocks are moving in the market, Blackberry will keep making phones. BTW Blackberry is killing the market in Dubai and all across the middle east. Just because their sales aren't number 1 here, it doesn't mean they will stop selling or producing the phone. So even if that rep was right, you can always buy one and unlock it.

[crackberry_geek]

Actually, this is not a FACT. These retail people may be speaking out of ignorance or limited information based on what they've read online.

So they are truthfully speaking what they know. It's up to Blackberry to fix this by serious advertisement and working with the carriers to disseminate information down to the ranks.

Exactly!

Posted with Z10 via CB10

[crackberry_geek]

So what is Blackberry doing about it?

Does Blackberry recognize they have a problem?

Why is it that Blackberry is the only brand that is afflicted by this seeming problem?

The constant "Blackberry is so hard done by" song and dance is a little tiring. It seems as though Blackberry's problems is everyone else's fault:

- salespersons who are conspiring against them;
- carriers for launching initiatives against them;
- consumers for failing to recognize how great BB10 devices truly, really are;
- the news media for failing to understand how great BBRY and its management have managed the situation;
- financial analysts for constantly focusing on the negative;
- tech observers who have failed to understand what BBRY/BB10 can really do;
- former BB users who have betrayed BBRY

And the list goes on and on! What is missing from that list? BBRY and its board and management who took the world's leading innovator in smartphones and turned it into a has been by failing to recognize the innovation that was needed.

Funny how BBRY is now hanging much of its future on Apple using QNX for its car integration platform.

Spot on!

Posted with Z10 via CB10

[Bookshelf]

[QUOTE=MiyakSk33;10086642]At least that is what the T-Mobile rep just told me.......
The minimum wage T-mobile sales guys told you........

[crackberry_geek]

Stop blaming the victim.

The points I have made repeatedly, which you attempt to change the subject from, are very simple: what T-Mobile did was unethical and obnoxious.

That's it.

If you agree with me, then we have no further need to debate the issue.

The question of Blackberry's turnaround and product quality and product appeal and marketing and mass consumer opinion and acceptance and desire and ALL THOSE OTHER THINGS are a completely separate discussion.

No one on Crackberry needs to have BOBUs and cynics and cranks constantly tell them that the company is in dire straights and needs to turn itself around if it wishes to survive and prosper. WE GET THAT NOISE EVERYWHERE ELSE WE GO. YEAH, WE GOT IT.

Yet so many people seem to think that they have to shout exactly that from the rooftops, over and over and over, and turn EVERY SINGLE DISCUSSION HERE into some sort of referendum on that matter, as if the whole world needs to be constantly reminded that the sky is blue.

.

You truly get it.

Sadly, you'll be bashed by the ostriches here... heads in the sand.

Posted with Z10 via CB10

[crackberry_geek]

I'm talking the plummeting market share that marketing the z30 could have stemmed. The z3 will be too late.

I would point out that calls for more marketing, innovation and modernisation of BBRY engineering, is hardly coming from someone enjoying the bbry demise.

You're sneering tone to others offering an opinion (often as valid as your own) is borderline offensive btw. This says a whole lot more about you than them.

Couldn't agree more.

Posted with Z10 via CB10

[crackberry_geek]

Most of them are consumers, and an overwhelming number of them use iOS and Android. Blackberry is virtually perceived as an old, also-ran company. Not too much of a stretch to imagine that many only have a vague idea of what Blackberry is up to. With limited store presence and a very muted ad campaign, it's not much of a stretch to see how a sales assistant may not know what's going on.

Nice of you to compare with Ford, GM, Honda etc, but BlackBerry does not occupy anything near that level of lofty status anymore.

Yup... correct.

Posted with Z10 via CB10

[crackberry_geek]

The onus, frankly, is on Blackberry to compete for the attention of the third party sales forces. If BBRY does not have the resources to compete against Samsung's sales incentives, then too bad, so sad for BBRY but there is nothing unlawful or unethical about what Samsung does and nothing unlawful or unethical about the salespersons at the various carriers' outlets responding to those incentives.

Sadly, unlike Samsung, BBRY sat back for years and relied on being the strongest smartphone brand to fuel sales and growth. After Apple and, now, Samsung gained traction, one would have thought that BBRY would shift gears and redouble its sales and marketing efforts. But it didn't and these are the fruits of its labor (or lack thereof). Couple that with a poor product reputation and one can see how frontline sales staff aren't too keen to push BBRY when other, more lucrative alternatives exist.

Soooo true.

Posted with Z10 via CB10

[tcseacliff]

Who Will Fill the BlackBerry Void? - WorkIntelligent.ly sound like i! I do not know what I will do?

[Omnitech]

BBRY and its board and management who took the world's leading innovator in smartphones and turned it into a has been by failing to recognize the innovation that was needed.

BlackBerry innovation:





iPhone innovation:

Funny how BBRY is now hanging much of its future on Apple using QNX for its car integration platform.

This just in: when you produce an car infotainment platform, it needs to work with the most popular devices that will be connected to it.

Yeah, that would be a great strategy to try to sell QNX's car platform to auto manufacturers, but it would only connect to a BlackBerry.

I don't know where you get this nonsense about "hanging much of its future", but it's quite funny, actually.

.

[Troy Tiscareno]

The thing is, if even the CEO of BB is uncertain if phones will be in BB's future, it's hard to fault a salesperson for thinking and saying that, isn't it?

NYT: BlackBerry Boss Says Company Must Be About More Than Phones

“Apple has to sell 58 million phones to get, I’d guess, a 10 to 12 percent margin,” said Mr. Chen. “If you’re not first or second in phone sales, where do you get any margin? You could sell 30 million phones and lose money. I have to be realistic here.”

Chen says that BB is in the phone market right now because it HAS to be, because it doesn't have a strong enough portfolio of non-phone products yet. That implies that once he gets his chess pieces in place, that making handsets may well be irrelevant for BB. That's one of the big reasons to push the development of BES along - so that BES can manage all platforms of phones, making the phone supplier irrelevant to BES's success.

Anyway, what do you expect people to think when they read articles like this, especially in the context of everything else that has gone on with BB? When a sales rep, who has seen BB sales fall off to nothing, seen the phones get pulled from the stores, etc? What would you think, if you'd never visited CB?

[raino]

Troy, do you really think this much analysis--right or wrong--is going into what the rep said?

[Troy Tiscareno]

No, of course not. But that's kind of my point: a lot of it is simple assumption in most cases, based on 2-3 factoids that those reps encounter. Few of them have any deep knowledge, but at the same time, few of them have anything against BB beyond the frustrations of (some of) the people they've sold them to in the past.

Reps want to sell as many phones as they can (really, they want to get as many signed contracts as they can; selling phones is just a means to that end), and they want as few returns or after-sales requests for support as possible. This is pretty much what ALL salespeople want, regardless of the product.

BB10 created a LOT of returns (relative to the total number of sales) and a lot of after-sales support issues. That's going to give BB a negative reputation among salespeople. Add in a couple other issues (the carrier not stocking them anymore, etc.), and it's not at all surprising that so many salespeople have INDEPENDENTLY come to the conclusion that BB is dying, or at least their smartphone business is.

[pkcable]

Do we REALLY need another "a carrier rep said" thread?

I don't THINK SO!