04-12-16 03:57 PM
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  1. JeepBB's Avatar

    But they only need to sell 3-5 million a year instead of 10+.


    Chen says 5M/year for breakeven. I'm pretty sure Chen's numbers are spot-on. Chen knows all, and sees all.



    If breakeven was 3M... He'd have said 3M.



    Lets try to not revise history before it gets written, huh?
    02-17-16 09:38 AM
  2. conite's Avatar
    Chen says 5M/year for breakeven. I'm pretty sure Chen's numbers are spot-on. Chen knows all, and sees all.



    If breakeven was 3M... He'd have said 3M.



    Lets try to not revise history before it gets written, huh?
    I wasn't quoting Chen. You are correct, he said 5. I just think they would stay in hardware with 3-5 (even though it would be at a loss).

    If after a year, the device business stopped the decline in sales, and rebounded with, say 4.1 million BlackBerry Android devices sold, I would imagine they would be very happy with that.
    Last edited by conite; 02-17-16 at 10:02 AM.
    02-17-16 09:50 AM
  3. DetritalGeo's Avatar
    I am close to dumping the Private and going back to the leap... I just don't need snapchat, periscope etc.. I find Blend more useful than having a giant app catalog, but that is my user case of course.

    I see value in having BB10 available in a care and basic maintenance as long a there are a customer base to serve that can keep it in the black.



    Posted via CB10
    02-17-16 09:56 AM
  4. Joao Oliveira's Avatar
    As a business professional or corporation,would you trust or throw your hat in with a company that has transitioned through 3 Operating Systems in less than a decade. Let alone, would abandoned their own platform in support of the competition. To many, that would exhibit a lack of commitment to your products and your customers.

    And what guarantee would you have that same company wouldn't one day abandon your investment as well, when history shows that to be their practice.
    A company's reputation is as much as an asset as the products they sell.

    Posted via CB10
    you can say the same about Samsung... They had their "pre-android" phones, they got Android, tried tizen (didn't work), and stick with Android, all within a decade. Oh, and they made windows phone too.
    02-17-16 12:55 PM
  5. crucial bbq's Avatar
    In my opinion:

    No. At least not for the time being. I believe they should keep BB10 on their roadmap through 2017. I think they should also stick with, and improve upon, Android to the point of total fragmentation. In fact, I believe this is what they are ultimately going to do once they have established a solid footprint as an Android vendor. My opinion is also that as they move more and more of BB10 (and perhaps BBOS) into Android on BlackBerry, when they get more apps that rely on BlackBerry Services, when they improve upon the Hub to the point where it may completely replace Notifications (seriously, why else would they have brought the Hub to Android? Familiarity? I don't think so. The Hub was one of the three defining features of BB10 -Peak and Flow the other two- the fact that the brought it to the Priv is an indication that they want users to have more of a BlackBerry experience on Android than anything) then we will finally see BlackBerry's true intent with Android on BlackBerry; making it their own. This will be their BB11.

    The problem is that Android has already happened, the game has now forever been changed. A year ago such a conversation would have been totally different (any talk of Android would have been aggressively attacked then dismissed. Funny how quickly things can change). No matter what, it is now a reality. I don't like it much, but now that it has happened I feel that Android is now their best move. Ironically, in the past most would have argued for a continuance of BB10 yet with an improved ART to v6.0. We wanted the Android apps but not the Android OS.



    The bar has already been set and Android and IOS are the new kings on the block and have embedded themselves into the mainstream culture. Even Microsoft with all their capital and resources could not make a dent in the market with Window mobile.
    Because of marketing, period. Apple made you feel like a square if you were not on board with their hip products (and for the record, this only slightly worked with Macs back in 2002 - 2003 or so). Android made tech geeks look cool but make no mistake about it; Android only became so popular initially because of cheap handsets and mostly free apps. Can't afford a $700 iPhone? Well, get a $300 Android: same function, different look. Both platforms heavily promoted what each could do for you; primarily stuff like editing pictures and video right there on the phone, then how easy it is to share with friends and family, making music, getting around town, finding the best place to eat, where to shop, and so on. They did a very good job of showing you how each OS would enhance your life (and in contrary, how boring your life used to be without). Microsoft never did that. WinPhone, like BlackBerry, were always more of a business device than a consumer's. How were they, like BlackBerry/RIM, supposed to advertise that? Granted, MS were in a far better position to take WinPhone to the masses as I personally feel that their OS is more suited to consumers than BB10 is, but still, their advertising largely focused on "being different" and not on how their phones may enhance our personal lives. Nadella is changing that, though. Unlike Ballmer he understands the need to send clearer messages to consumers and is now actually starting to define how a WinPhone may be your best solution... ...if you are the type who wears a suit at the office.

    Have you seen any BlackBerry commercials on YouTube for BB10 and the Priv? They are all geared towards the professional and not the average joe consumer. Work wide, work connected, stay on top of your [business] game; that sort of stuff.


    The biggest issue I have seen here in the USA is the brand has all but been forgotten about and the way that T-Mobile is marketing the new Priv, they don't have a chance of making any sort of comeback here.
    BlackBerries were never too popular in the U.S. to begin with. At the height of BBs popularity, here, Windows Phone was #1. And that Motorola RAZR, wow, that phone was everywhere for like five years straight.

    The U.S. has always been one of BlackBerry's/RIMs smallest markets. Kind of interesting that Google, Apple, and MS are all U.S. companies.

    The sales folks here are all geared towards the iPhone and Galaxy devices and the T-Mobile stores I have been to have the shiny new Priv mixed in with last years devices and some stores don't even have demo units and/or devices in stock they could sell you even if you did want to buy one.
    For whatever reason, in the U.S. market the Galaxy S series and iPhones have near even market share for smartphones at what, ~45% each? (Apple is ahead and I believe it is more like 48% iPhone to 44% Galaxy S) Or something crazy like that. No other OEM has more than 7% of the U.S. market (as of 2015). It is insane that these two models dominate so hard here; even the iPhone. Apple is losing market share to Samsung, even here in the U.S. I would bet that by the end of 2016 Samsung is #1 in the U.S.

    Anyways, at my local AT&T store they got the Priv in a back corner right next to the iPhone 6S Plus and Lumia 950 XL. It seems to be more of a phablet thing...

    This all goes back to Blackberry, no marketing or advertising, the product is set to fail here, sad, but thats just the reality of the current situation folks.
    Once again, how could BlackBerry have advertised BB10? Story Maker and Time Shift, sure. But then what?

    Even without a major BB10 upgrade I feel it would sell better than the priv.
    I agree 100% that a BB10 Priv would have outsold the current Android on BlackBerry Priv by a wide margin. Then sales would have dropped off considerably as everyone who would have bought a BB10 just did. Being on Android, at the least the Priv has potential to continuously appeal to new customers.

    Chen wants android to fail too, so its tenure in Android will be short lived.

    The only hope for a BlackBerry fan to have hardware for any OS at all is if Chen is sent packing. But it looks like Chen has free reign to play his fiddle while Waterloo burns.

    Z30STA100-5 / 10.3.2.2813 / T-Mobile
    Care to elaborate?

    As a business professional or corporation,would you trust or throw your hat in with a company that has transitioned through 3 Operating Systems in less than a decade. Let alone, would abandoned their own platform in support of the competition. To many, that would exhibit a lack of commitment to your products and your customers.

    And what guarantee would you have that same company wouldn't one day abandon your investment as well, when history shows that to be their practice.
    A company's reputation is as much as an asset as the products they sell.

    Posted via CB10
    While RIM could surely have simply brought BBOS into the modern world, they had recently acquired QNX, and revamping BBOS would have essentially created a new OS, anyways. Android is the real mystery here and I wonder if we will ever get the full scoop on why they decided to go with it.

    I would also imagine that BlackBerry communicates with their corporate clients in a more timely and professional manner than they with us consumers. Otherwise, yes, I agree with you here.

    Whatever the strategy is regarding BB10, there's no reason to announce it because that would just cause unnecessary consternation. BB10 goes into maintenance mode. The core enterprise customers on this platform aren't looking for the latest consumer features - there using BlackBerries after all Your customers who want app will migrate to your new devices and new platforms.

    You can't cater to the fans of your existing technology when you need to make a change. If anyone would learn that lesson over the past decade it would be BlackBerry.
    I agree with everything here except for the last sentence. For one, BlackBerry seems to be utilizing their same old MO. There is in interview out there with BlackBerry's former head of Indonesian operations who states that BB10 failed because BlackBerry never makes a move without running it through their team of lawyers first, and, that BlackBerry cannot see past Waterloo; meaning that BlackBerry failed time and time again to see how this market changed and to change with it (that is, they continued to market BB10 in the same way they used to market BBOS, back when Indonesia was their largest market).

    Keep in mind, the biggest problem for BB10 are the app gap and brand awareness.
    Apparently the app gap of BB10 cannot be fixed by BlackBerry but the dev community, while the Priv is a good shot to create brand awareness.



    Posted via CB10
    Yeah, I dunno. BB10 could have had every app available to it and it still likely would not have moved more units. As for brand awareness, that is there. What is missing is positive brand image. Most think that BlackBerry died five years ago. Some think BlackBerry's are for grandparents or for those who wear suits. Heck, there are even diehards around here who believe that BlackBerry is either intentionally trying to kill handsets or that even the Priv will ultimately fail. What does it say about your image when some of your most ardent fans think you are up to malicious intent?
    Last edited by crucial bbq; 02-17-16 at 01:11 PM.
    Troy Tiscareno likes this.
    02-17-16 12:58 PM
  6. JulesDB's Avatar
    No

    Posted via CB10
    02-17-16 01:35 PM
  7. TgeekB's Avatar
    I can't read small books on a forum.
    02-17-16 02:28 PM
  8. idssteve's Avatar
    I like your analogy. BlackBerry has not had a true flagship since BB10 released. The passport doesn't count IMO due to its looks. This community was bitterly divided over the huge square phone prior to its release. No sleek all touch. No top of the line hardware just pkb after pkb. The public Turned away from pkb years ago.

    !
    Yeah, most (but not all) of the public turned from pkb years ago. Most of the public turned from BlackBerry years ago. Including non-pkb Z's. Z30 might be argued to have approached flagship status for a brief while, at least. Once again, BB aimed too low with specs to generate excitement among the "bragging rights" numbers kids. (anyone under 60 is a "kid" to me. Lol). No real "need" for super specs with BB10, they might argue BUT what if DeLorean had acquiesced to "zero sum bean counters" and shipped GTO with six cylinder engines? Who needs more than a six cylinder in a GTO?? Lol.

    Android is a "brave new world" for BB. They're smart to play it safe and NOT wreck their name in that world by rushing out another half baked Storm fiasco. BUT they'll need to make a flagship "splash" pretty soon to break thru carrier resistance and to compensate for BB's inexplicable marketing malaise. Imho.

    A Sammy killing spec'd top end "Super-Phablet" might generate enough interest and establish enough creds to make it "OK" to be seen carrying a BlackBerry. Even a PKB BB10. ?? ??
    02-17-16 02:40 PM
  9. jojon2se's Avatar
    Yet again, I can not look away from parallels with a certain other mismanaged company, that also was utterly inept at marketing their products: Commodore Business Machines.

    They had decently successful lines of computers, which sold well, primarily to the "home market", for many years, *despite* the efforts of marketing; and despite any engineer wanting to do something good, having to do it pretty much behind the back of the bean counters at the top.

    What actually brought that company down in the end, was management pouring resources into an IBM PC compatible computer division.
    Whilst they failed to compete in that market of commoditised hardware and ever slimmer margins, their own, custom products fell way behind in the technology race, due to sheer neglect. A skeleton crew of dedicated engineers made brave and outright self-sacrificing efforts, but were trampled again and again by the decision makers.
    02-17-16 02:50 PM
  10. chopachain's Avatar
    No one on this forum has the authority to pull the plug on BB10. BB10 is only dead when BlackBerry says so. Give us BB10 diehards a high end top specked full touch device, then maybe we will shut up. You android converts can laugh and mock us, but no matter how rosy you make android, we BB10 lovers are not going to go away. Actually the way I see it, BB Android is in worse condition than BB10. So.........spare us your BB10 death rhetoric. IMO BB Android needs saving, not BB10. Cos sixty million+ vehicles says so.
    02-17-16 03:14 PM
  11. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    No one on this forum has the authority to pull the plug on BB10. BB10 is only dead when BlackBerry says so. Give us BB10 diehards a high end top specked full touch device, then maybe we will shut up. You android converts can laugh and mock us, but no matter how rosy you make android, we BB10 lovers are not going to go away. Actually the way I see it, BB Android is in worse condition than BB10. So.........spare us your BB10 death rhetoric. IMO BB Android needs saving, not BB10. Cos sixty million+ vehicles says so.
    BB10 had it "shot"... yeah they could have released better hardware, they could have marketed more, in the end BB10 is a power users OS as it required way more work than the average users is going to even think about. Apps, Apps, Apps.....that's what makes smartphones "smart" these days... not a browser or email.

    Android.... it's a proven smartphone sellers. But yeah I'm not so sure they'll meet the goals in sales with this latest attempt. But that doesn't change that BB10 just wast viable. I do agree no one hear has the authority to pull the plug on BB10. Some just look at the restructuring that went on six months ago, and the latest round of layoff, the notifications they made to developers, the announcement by BlackBerry of no new devices in 2016 for BB10, the announcement by BlackBerry of just two minor updates being in the works.... and some people just assume they know what is going on.

    Might be that hypervisor just wasn't ready yet and they know it will be 2017......
    02-17-16 03:35 PM
  12. JeepBB's Avatar
    Cos sixty million+ vehicles says so.
    There have never been as many as 60M BB10 phones out there, there hasn't been 60M active BB phones of any model or OS in total for several years.
    02-17-16 03:52 PM
  13. xtremeled's Avatar
    I'd prefer if they were to continue BlackBerry 10, but it doesn't matter at this point because we're all fairly aware that BlackBerry 10 wasn't exactly selling. It had potential, but it wasn't marketed very well.
    The Priv isnt exactly flying off the shelves either. All that's here is BB trying to avoid the inevitable. The end of BB in the phone market
    02-17-16 03:53 PM
  14. Superdupont 2_0's Avatar
    Yeah, I dunno. BB10 could have had every app available to it and it still likely would not have moved more units. As for brand awareness, that is there. What is missing is positive brand image. Most think that BlackBerry died five years ago. Some think BlackBerry's are for grandparents or for those who wear suits. Heck, there are even diehards around here who believe that BlackBerry is either intentionally trying to kill handsets or that even the Priv will ultimately fail. What does it say about your image when some of your most ardent fans think you are up to malicious intent?
    The sales reps in the stores must recommend platforms which have all the apps, and BB10 doesn't have all the apps.
    Snapchat is an important messenger in the US, Line is an important messenger in Asia, but both aren't available for BB10.
    To me it's a safe bet that BB10 needs only a handful of some major apps and the situation would change.

    Regarding the positive brand image, yes, I agree with you.
    People love to believe in nonsense... and you need good marketing to fight the nonsense.
    02-17-16 04:47 PM
  15. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    I see value in having BB10 available in a care and basic maintenance as long a there are a customer base to serve that can keep it in the black.
    But that's the problem - BB10 has never been in the black; not even close. Even the investment of the initial developing of the OS aside, BB10 is currently losing around $100 every time a phone is sold (based on several industry estimates). BB10 is a huge ongoing loss, even after the $9B or so of value already lost. If it was at least close to break-even, it might have been kept in development, but that's just not the reality of the situation.
    02-17-16 06:37 PM
  16. nimra's Avatar
    It will take a lot more than a 9-5 job at BlackBerry to be able to go through these coming years and keep both sides supported, no computer or figures or spreadsheets can estimate what is possible when dedication comes on the plan and or but without that both sided droid / OS10 dedication both will fail - there is no easy way out, but there is hope for the strong ones!!!

    Posted via CB10
    02-17-16 06:44 PM
  17. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Cos sixty million+ vehicles says so.
    What in the world do you imagine 60+ million vehicles have ANYTHING to do with BB10? Exactly ZERO vehicles run BB10. Sure, there are 60+ million vehicles running QNX, but QNX is not BB10, any more than a slab of concrete is a house. Like that slab of concrete, QNX is BB10's foundation, but 90% of the BB10 OS is unique and has nothing to do with the foundation it is built upon, just like 90% of a house is made up of things other than the foundation it is built upon.
    DrBoomBotz, JeepBB, Uzi and 2 others like this.
    02-17-16 06:50 PM
  18. kenicolo's Avatar
    Keep at least slow development and improvement, the OS is great and android compatibility could be improved in time

    Posted via CB10
    02-17-16 07:13 PM
  19. BeautyEh's Avatar
    I'm just hoping that if BlackPhone can sell a million devices to enterprise, then BlackBerry Android can sell 3-5 million (which is all they need). Fingers crossed.
    If BlackBerry could get their head out of their *** on advertising, and make an Android 'Classic' style device with the form factor of the Bold BUT good-level specs and the full Google App ecosystem...I still strongly feel that they could re-establish their niche. At least with business professionals, maybe users over 40 who would still really prefer a PKB interface.

    The coolest thing about the new PKB's is that they function as a trackpad!!!! How has BB not screamed this feature to the public?

    Posted via CB10
    02-17-16 07:32 PM
  20. BeautyEh's Avatar
    But that's the problem - BB10 has never been in the black; not even close. Even the investment of the initial developing of the OS aside, BB10 is currently losing around $100 every time a phone is sold (based on several industry estimates). BB10 is a huge ongoing loss, even after the $9B or so of value already lost. If it was at least close to break-even, it might have been kept in development, but that's just not the reality of the situation.
    Really? Including higher priced devices like Passport? Even when initially released?
    I find this hard to believe on a per-unit basis based on the reality that BB keeps their pricing on the higher side to make up for smaller manufacturing orders, etc.

    Posted via CB10
    02-17-16 07:42 PM
  21. rguay's Avatar
    Android all the way. Who knows, maybe BB's reputation in security (and frankly their only marketing leg left their have to stand on) will eventually convince Google to enhance their BB partnership to give BB deeper OS access and beef up Android's stock security offering.

    Posted via CB10
    02-17-16 08:04 PM
  22. LuxuryTouringZone's Avatar
    "In your opinion, should blackberry focus on android and forget bb10 ?"

    No, that would be a terrible idea. They need to bring out a BlackBerry 10 flagship to satisfy the customers that have no intention on buying Android powered BlackBerries.
    02-17-16 09:59 PM
  23. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Really? Including higher priced devices like Passport? Even when initially released?
    Yes, though the PP I'm sure loses a lot less money than, say, the Classic or the Leap on a per-unit basis. But even at BB's "high" prices, the costs they bear for BB10, including ongoing development, simply outstrips the revenue they bring in with it.
    02-17-16 10:43 PM
  24. bitje's Avatar
    License BB10 for free to anyone who wants to make a bb10 phone, do it now
    02-17-16 11:18 PM
  25. thurask's Avatar
    License BB10 for free to anyone who wants to make a bb10 phone, do it now
    Would anyone want to make a BB10 phone?

    Thorsten Heins tried that and came back empty handed.
    02-18-16 12:26 AM
162 12345 ...

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