[anon(3667697)]

This is a deal breaker for me as well. I'm sick of the BIS requirement. It cripples the device if you are not actively paying for service and no other devices force you to do that.

Recently, I keep seeing people freaking out over BBM Voice and I just can't help but wonder where these people have been the last few years. I currently have a WiFi only, Nexus 4. No service on it at all. It doesn't even have a SIM card in it. Yet I still have email, I can still use Twitter, Facebook, and any instant messaging apps available on Android. And if all of that isn't cool enough- I have unlimited voice calling, unlimited text messaging and I even get voicemail. My Nexus 4 is my home phone. Lol how cool is BBM Voice now? Especially when you consider that once you stop paying for BIS you lose BBM. A BlackBerry without service is a paperweight. Other devices without service can still function very well.

What BlackBerry offers isn't worth the BIS/BES requirement any more. I can get a prepaid T-Mobile plan with unlimited data and then my Nexus 4 would become a full featured smartphone with unlimited everything for only $30 a month. I want to be able to do that with a BB10 phone, but RIM won't allow it. They gotta keep milking us to have a chance of surviving I guess.

Wow! I could,'t have described it any better! Just exactly my thoughts!

I'm a Blackberry fanboy and I don't even mind the extra monthly payment for BIS here in Germany (5Euros/month), but what I do mind, is this feeling to be caught in that BIS thing, without any chance to read an email, acces facebook or twitter apps without being connected to BIS.. basically my bold is useless without BIS service. But then, what if I wanted to use the device with a foreign prepaid card? What if I wanted to only read my email abroad whilest being connected via Wifi without having to switch on data, as else it won't even connect to these "awesome" BIS servers?

The Playbook is able to do all this without BIS! Why then deny it for all future BB10 users? Why not at least offer it as a choice! I do understand that some people might want the whole BIS thing for security and for push (although my 3rd party logicmail app delivers emails 1-2sec before BIS does!) But I really don't think RIM can further dictate BIS to their customers and carriers. Nope. Really No.

Some years ago there was not a single carrier offering BIS in China. So what if you were to move to there for a year? And don't tell me, you'd be paying for roaming fees to China for one year! Maybe my personal case isn't representative - having lived on three continents within the last three years - but isn't this the business case RIM advertises its services for?

Thus I'll still keep my current bold - best device in terms of efficiency - but I'd rather die before buying a BB10 device that's constrained to BIS once more.. Plus I'm going to buy a secondary phone (probably android) for all the cases when my Bold leaves me struggling alone...

Just my 2 cent. I'm sure some of you might have a different oppinion on this sensitive topic

[randall2580]

1. pop3 is able to be done on a PlayBook without BIS, so I would imagine BB would be capable of doing this on the phones if they cared to (I don't think they care to, they like the added revenue). As long as you are connected to the internet by your phone, you should be able to pull in pop3 email.
2. What I don't think they can do without the NOC is BBM. If you want BBM I don't think you can get it without BIS and it's why PlayBook doesn't have it yet.

I think from what I read that many of use would like the option to opt for a plain vanilla data plan that works with a BB phone without BIS and therefore without BBM, while others of us couldn't think of life without BBM and don't mind paying the extra. From what I saw above - the phones will require the BIS and we won't have the option to opt out.

[Saiga]

My Dev Alpha has 100% BIS/BES free BBM. It works just as fast and as well as BBM on my Bold. The PlayBook has email. So there ya go, proof positive that there truly is no need for BIS to be forced onto normal everyday consumers. They have already made BBM and email that doesn't need the NOC. They just wont let us use those because they want to squeeze out that monthly revenue source.

To be honest, I'm starting to think that the WiFi only PlayBook was never supposed to have native email. Originally, I thought Bridge was just a crutch they made because RIM was too incompetent to get email ready for the PlayBook before launch. But the more I think about it, the more I realize It was just RIM's way to make sure that you couldn't use email on the PlayBook without a BIS subscription. If it weren't for the massive backlash, I bet the PlayBook would still depend on Bridge for email right now.

[belfastdispatcher]

My Dev Alpha has 100% BIS/BES free BBM. It works just as fast and as well as BBM on my Bold. The PlayBook has email. So there ya go, proof positive that there truly is no need for BIS to be forced onto normal everyday consumers. They have already made BBM and email that doesn't need the NOC. They just wont let us use those because they want to squeeze out that monthly revenue source.

To be honest, I'm starting to think that the WiFi only PlayBook was never supposed to have native email. Originally, I thought Bridge was just a crutch they made because RIM was too incompetent to get email ready for the PlayBook before launch. But the more I think about it, the more I realize It was just RIM's way to make sure that you couldn't use email on the PlayBook without a BIS subscription. If it weren't for the massive backlash, I bet the PlayBook would still depend on Bridge for email right now.

I thought BB10 BBM still uses the NOC, what it doesn't need is the BIS subscription.

[bobo616]

I am new to the world of blackberry's as I have only become interested since I have seen BB10, so am I right in thinking that I cant just take my micro sim from my iphone 4 and put it in a blackberry as it wont work? I am in the Uk by the way. This is really annoying if I cant as I am on a very cheap tariff that is more than enough for my needs so dont want to pay more if I dont need to.

[ichat]

Yes, you will need BIS to use blackberry services (email, video etc. Oh! And save data)

So you will have to pay for it.

And, it is not a scheme for money.

People are paying for quality service on dedicated servers.

Sent from my Nintendo NES

[bobo616]

I understand the security advantages of BIS and definitely BES but if Blackberry want to attract casual iphone or android users they may want to rethink this as some people may not see any value in having this extra layer of security and may just see it as another reason not to get a blackberry, I personally do appreciate the added security and will pay the extra �5 a month it will cost me to use BIS but general Joe public may not care about security and just want the cheapest price regardless of the security issues.

I know things work differently in the US and I may be in the minority here but I like to buy my phones directly and unlocked which then allows me to move between different sim contracts more easily but this does now complicate matters further if I can only move to plans that support BIS.

[randall2580]

My Dev Alpha has 100% BIS/BES free BBM. It works just as fast and as well as BBM on my Bold. The PlayBook has email. So there ya go, proof positive that there truly is no need for BIS to be forced onto normal everyday consumers. They have already made BBM and email that doesn't need the NOC. They just wont let us use those because they want to squeeze out that monthly revenue source.

To be honest, I'm starting to think that the WiFi only PlayBook was never supposed to have native email. Originally, I thought Bridge was just a crutch they made because RIM was too incompetent to get email ready for the PlayBook before launch. But the more I think about it, the more I realize It was just RIM's way to make sure that you couldn't use email on the PlayBook without a BIS subscription. If it weren't for the massive backlash, I bet the PlayBook would still depend on Bridge for email right now.

The posting by Xopher from the Inside Blackberry Developers Blog says that for now, the Dev devices will work without BIS on a WiFi connection but BB10 phones will have to have a BlackBerry data plan. So while it can work that way, apparently they are not going to allow it to happen.

[lnichols]

In the US this isn't as big of an issue as people are making of it at least when you compare RIM to Apple. With Apple you, or the the carrier subsidizing the phone, are paying for "free" iCloud services with a premium fee on the device. Base iPhone costs $649 dollars, and even if you are only paying $200 with a contract, the carrier is paying the rest to Apple. This ridiculous high subsidy compared to other phones hasn't prevented carriers from carrying or pushing the iPhone. Android is subsidizing their services with ads to end users and selling your data they have mined through your usage to the highest bidder (probably the most profitable for the carriers and why Verizon is pushing Droid so hard). RIM is billing carriers for these services when a person is actually using the device. If the carrier pays $120 over the life of a two year contract to a third party in services when used, or eats $150 more in subsidy price for a third party device, what is the difference to the carrier? Also with things like carrier billing for apps, music, movies, etc. coming with BB10, you think that carriers aren't getting a cut of each transaction?

Now for SIM swappers and carriers that charge extra for Blackberry data plans I can see where this could hurt RIM some with potential customers. But SIM swappers aren't RIM's target audience IMHO. Me speculating, I think that the majority of major services like e-mail, web, and apps that connect to raw internet will work just fine on BB10 device without a BB data plan, you simply won't have access to BB services that use the NOC (BBM, VideoChat, BBTravel, BB Maps, etc), and RIM is requiring the plan to eliminate the possibility of getting a degraded user experience. Personally at some point I think global roaming MiFi devices/services like one just announce for 5GB for $50 month-to-month and VoIP services will be the way to go in the future and make this less of an issue. Keep your phone number, have your data plan with your main provider, and just turn off the radio on travel and use WiFi only to the MiFi device. But

[chrysaurora]

Personally at some point I think global roaming MiFi devices/services like one just announce for 5GB for $50 month-to-month and VoIP services will be the way to go in the future and make this less of an issue. Keep your phone number, have your data plan with your main provider, and just turn off the radio on travel and use WiFi only to the MiFi device. But

While other non-BB phones will continue to work without carrying MiFi devices. I agree with Saiga and megabus - RIM ought to allow BB 10 usage on regular data plan. Maybe block or degrade certain services (such as BBM, Push etc.) but the smartphone must remain reasonably "smart" on a regular data plan too! Right now, when you go on a regular data plan, the smart gets dropped from smartphone and it just becomes a last decade's phone.

[lnichols]

While other non-BB phones will continue to work without carrying MiFi devices. I agree with Saiga and megabus - RIM ought to allow BB 10 usage on regular data plan. Maybe block or degrade certain services (such as BBM, Push etc.) but the smartphone must remain reasonably "smart" on a regular data plan too! Right now, when you go on a regular data plan, the smart gets dropped from smartphone and it just becomes a last decade's phone.

And I think it will work, you just won't be able to use BBM, BB World, and apps that require the services hosted in the NOC. Basically RIM is covering the cost of the RIM "cloud services" with the BlackBerry Data plan. BB10 has the capability to work just fine when the NOC is not there, the Playbook shows us this, we'll just have see what the final BB10 implementation is when the phones are released.

[narci]

And I think it will work, you just won't be able to use BBM, BB World, and apps that require the services hosted in the NOC. Basically RIM is covering the cost of the RIM "cloud services" with the BlackBerry Data plan. BB10 has the capability to work just fine when the NOC is not there, the Playbook shows us this, we'll just have see what the final BB10 implementation is when the phones are released.

While some service will work without BIS, your essentially 'crippling the phone' while users of other devices are free to swap sims with nothing to sacrifice.

As I have said before, how can BBs be considered an 'international' device when prepaid BB plans are almost non-existant.

Why must your bis setting be tied to your provider/sim?

BIS works via wifi but if I put a foriegn prepaid card, I instantly lose my host routing table entries.

[lnichols]

While some service will work without BIS, your essentially 'crippling the phone' while users of other devices are free to swap sims with nothing to sacrifice.

As I have said before, how can BBs be considered an 'international' device when prepaid BB plans are almost non-existant.

Why must your bis setting be tied to your provider/sim?

BIS works via wifi but if I put a foriegn prepaid card, I instantly lose my host routing table entries.

BB10 is going to work differently than BBOS. They are migrating things to use a BlackberryID. Let's see how BB10 works come January 30th as you are assuming that because you need a Blackberry data plan that things will be just like BBOS. Maybe if you have a BB plan with some provider, the phone will stay tied to that even if you are using another providers network/sim while on travel as long as you don't cancel your main Blackberry plan with the new ways things work. Right now I think everyone is making huge assumptions because RIM wants you have a Blackberry Plan. We know that BB10 won't talk to BES5, and BES10 won't talk to BBOS (at least initially), so we have to assume that BB10 won't talk to BIS for BBOS either, but you will need something to get you onto RIM's network with BB10.

[john_v]

It's a very important question for those wanting to bail on big-cellular for pay-as-you-go plans or "monthly" plans that don't allow BIS. Here in America, StraightTalk offers AT&T or T-Mobile SIM cards for a penny and charge $45/mo for unlimited data, calling, text. What a deal, right?! Except...I can't use my Blackberry 9900. Well, I can, but I won't get e-mail, BBM, or Facebook. Ouch.

So will Blackberry 10 require BIS? The Playbook doesn't, and it works just fine . My guess...is yes, otherwise how will it receive pushed messages.

OP, check out Simple Mobile. I have my TMO 9900 running on a Simple Mobile 4G BlackBerry plan. $50/mo flat (no tax if you pay online )and I get unlimited text talk and TMO 4G as well as all BlackBerry services.

[TheStoof]

The only issue with this "requiring BIS" is that you cannot simply change to the phone without first calling your carrier. Otherwise...you pay the same price because it's data+BIS.

[chrysaurora]

The only issue with this "requiring BIS" is that you cannot simply change to the phone without first calling your carrier. Otherwise...you pay the same price because it's data+BIS.

And carriers are pain in the behind. After holding for a long time, they often refuse to unlock/release BB PIN. While other non BlackBerry smartphone users are able to unlock, swap sim cards and have a fully functional smartphone. BB users have to go through this one extra (and very often) very frustrating step of trying to get your PIN released. Which doesnt always work either. It's really one of the worst things about BlackBerry.

In the past, RIM has behaved like it's a slave to carriers while other Apple, Android have always put customer's/end-user's interest ahead of carrier's. Eg: PIN locking, disabling Skype like apps etc. Look where they (Apple and Android) are now and where BlackBerry is now. Hope RIM puts our (end-user's) interest ahead this time. Dear RIM, I am a shareholder -- and consider this my vote -- put end-user's interest ahead of carrier's!

[TheStoof]

And carriers are pain in the behind. After holding for a long time, they often refuse to unlock/release BB PIN. While other non BlackBerry smartphone users are able to unlock, swap sim cards and have a fully functional smartphone. BB users have to go through this one extra (and very often) very frustrating step of trying to get your PIN released. Which doesnt always work either. It's really one of the worst things about BlackBerry.

In the past, RIM has behaved like it's a slave to carriers while other Apple, Android have always put customer's/end-user's interest ahead of carrier's. Eg: PIN locking, disabling Skype like apps etc. Look where they (Apple and Android) are now and where BlackBerry is now. Hope RIM puts our (end-user's) interest ahead this time. Dear RIM, I am a shareholder -- and consider this my vote -- put end-user's interest ahead of carrier's!

RIM is desperate and has Thorsten. Thorsten, so I've heard, has turned around companies before.

[bobo616]

If you lose access to BIS for some reason such as they are having server problems but you still have 3G or wifi access are you still able to access the internet and apps that need a data connection or does nothing work or is it just specific things such as BBM and email etc?

[TheStoof]

If you lose access to BIS for some reason such as they are having server problems but you still have 3G or wifi access are you still able to access the internet and apps that need a data connection or does nothing work or is it just specific things such as BBM and email etc?

The problem is that even WiFi will get routed to the BIS servers.

[fabio caronti]

Ok you need the BIS ..... What's the problem ? Italy 5 euros per month for bis (ulimited). Others carriers charge an average fee for data plans about 10 euros month.

Limitations? Nothing, except YouTube on bb phone.

Second question more important? Do you know how bis / bes works?

That's why I appreciate bb! Security! If u don't care about this no problem!

But if I want to write something confidential, foe example, BBM is the fastest and trusted solution

Otherwise ios or android can be the right solution.

Ps (I have an android phone too and in the past an iphone3gs)all these work great, it depends for what you get a smartphone

[narci]

Ok you need the BIS ..... What's the problem ? Italy 5 euros per month for bis (ulimited). Others carriers charge an average fee for data plans about 10 euros month.

Limitations? Nothing, except YouTube on bb phone.

Second question more important? Do you know how bis / bes works?

That's why I appreciate bb! Security! If u don't care about this no problem!

But if I want to write something confidential, foe example, BBM is the fastest and trusted solution

Otherwise ios or android can be the right solution.

Ps (I have an android phone too and in the past an iphone3gs)all these work great, it depends for what you get a smartphone

Try going to another country and find a pre-paid Blackberry plan.

You can't just pop a sim from another country and get BIS unless it's a Blackberry Plan.

[Sauravbhattarai]

I agree totally with the opinion of making BIS/BES optional on BB10. We everyday consumers dont require so much security and having to pay extra just for the sake of using FB and email is just ridiculous. I am a big time BB fan and I am very very excited about os10. Infact Ive already made enough savings to buy a BB10 phone as soon as its released. But if RIM makes BIS/BES mandatory .. well its a deal breaker for me.. I will have to switch to nexus 4 or oppo find 5. I just want BB10 phones to work like playbook wifi. That would make me a happy man.