04-05-14 05:42 PM
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  1. Eupathic Impulse's Avatar
    I have a better idea than "taking a business class". Take a page out of the book of people who are actually successful at what they do. Apple doesn't care where some abstract "consumer" is. Apple loves their users. You can come along for the ride if you want to, if you're not really a part of the users they love. Or you can buy an Android phone. But Apple is Honey Badger. RIM was also once Honey Badger. It wasn't as popular a Honey Badger as Apple was. That's OK, as long as you love your users. You have a chance.
    02-25-14 07:38 AM
  2. coldRooster's Avatar
    Like I said, love your users. If you think your users are "lazy or stupid", get out of the business of making money. I'd like to mandate "smarter" users if I could -- although I don't think that touchscreens are the height of intelligence, why abolish a whole human sense from the palette of user experiences -- but BB has to make money and that money is not coming from the users who have already bought Android and iPhone and are waiting to get rid of their BBs. The market for BBs are the people who love BB phones.
    I don't understand your reference to "your users" as I do not work at or run blackberry. But okay. And that's what I am saying. They have made a phone with a belt in order to cater to the BBOS crowd when that crowd has already moved on. That's my point. BlackBerry had to out the BB10 crowd on hold for a crowd that I don't think they will make a lot of money off of. and if they do then great! If not oh well.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    02-25-14 07:39 AM
  3. byex's Avatar
    Does the track pad come with the spinning hourglass?

    Posted via CB10
    kbz1960 and MrGlenn like this.
    02-25-14 07:40 AM
  4. Eupathic Impulse's Avatar
    @conite: I find it hard to separate the Belt and the whole BBOS/Bold experience, really. Now, there are aspects of BB10 that still replicate BBOS, like the emphasis on messaging. Which was a good choice, it's what users want.

    I like Chen. He seems to be on your side, so you are in good company.

    I'm all for choice. Maybe with Foxconn he has not had to invest anything, and is essentially getting this for free. It will be a good, low risk, gauge to see if it flies.
    It might be too late now. Who knows. If they manufacture this thing, I'll probably buy it when next I upgrade from the Q10. And don't get me wrong. The Q10's a great phone. I've dropped it several times on pavement. Yeah yeah I know, I'm a klutz sometimes. Not a scratch! (Although it has a screen protector.) Possibly my upgrade to Q20 will be sooner than I anticipate.
    02-25-14 07:42 AM
  5. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I don't understand your reference to "your users" as I do not work at or run blackberry. But okay. And that's what I am saying. They have made a phone with a belt in order to cater to the BBOS crowd when that crowd has already moved on. That's my point. BlackBerry had to out the BB10 crowd on hold for a crowd that I don't think they will make a lot of money off of. and if they do then great! If not oh well.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    Who says that crowd has moved on? They still have 10s of millions of active BBOS users and they still sell a few millions of them every quarter.

    Look at the facts. Some have moved on but many remain. To date have only been 5-6 million BB10 devices shipped, in one year. Do you honestly think BB can survive on that?


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-25-14 07:42 AM
  6. Eupathic Impulse's Avatar
    I don't understand your reference to "your users" as I do not work at or run blackberry. But okay. And that's what I am saying. They have made a phone with a belt in order to cater to the BBOS crowd when that crowd has already moved on. That's my point. BlackBerry had to out the BB10 crowd on hold for a crowd that I don't think they will make a lot of money off of. and if they do then great! If not oh well.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    I don't work at BB either. I'm just speaking metaphorically.
    02-25-14 07:42 AM
  7. coldRooster's Avatar
    I have a better idea than "taking a business class". Take a page out of the book of people who are actually successful at what they do. Apple doesn't care where some abstract "consumer" is. Apple loves their users. You can come along for the ride if you want to, if you're not really a part of the users they love. Or you can buy an Android phone. But Apple is Honey Badger. RIM was also once Honey Badger. It wasn't as popular a Honey Badger as Apple was. That's OK, as long as you love your users. You have a chance.
    Apple's users have decided what they like and what they don't. That's why the iPhone makes micro changes. Samsung did the same thing. It's economics and marketing. CONSUMERS DETERMINE WHAT IS AND IS NOT MADE ON A MARKET. Look at how apple is now having to make a bigger iPhone. I'm sure apple made that decision on their own though, and not because consumers want it. Companies are successfully because of consumers. Companies rely on consumers. Not vice versa.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    02-25-14 07:43 AM
  8. coldRooster's Avatar
    I don't work at BB either. I'm just speaking metaphorically.
    Okay. you have good points in your arguments. I just think IN NY OPINION blackberry. Should not have done or so what they are. But that is just me. If I'm wrong I'm okay with that

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    02-25-14 07:45 AM
  9. coldRooster's Avatar
    Who says that crowd has moved on? They still have 10s of millions of active BBOS users and they still sell a few millions of them every quarter.

    Look at the facts. Some have moved on but many remain. To date have only been 5-6 million BB10 devices shipped, in one year. Do you honestly think BB can survive on that?


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    I think you would find that is more business than consumer. You're talking in general. I'm talking for personal use.


    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    02-25-14 07:45 AM
  10. jefbeard911's Avatar
    Belt and trackpad lovers are missing the point. Sure, pushing a buton is easy. By that logic we should have a button for everything.
    But BB made a choice, right or wrong, to adopt a gesture-based OS. With that they shifted the entire company strategy to design a good one. Watch the video of the unveiling of the Z10. From CEO down, everyone hailed the new OS as a leap forward.

    Now, a year later with things not going well, BB reverts back to its roots circa 2004? Really? So we are supposed to forget all of that gesture talk from last year?

    It boils down to BB wanting to give its customers what they want (a very short sided view) or give them what they need.

    Trackpads and function keys = 250,000 really happy BB fanatics and a DEAD Blackberry.
    coldRooster likes this.
    02-25-14 07:45 AM
  11. Eupathic Impulse's Avatar
    Apple's users have decided what they like and what they don't. That's why the iPhone makes micro changes. Samsung did the same thing. It's economics and marketing. CONSUMERS DETERMINE WHAT IS AND IS NOT MADE ON A MARKET. Look at how apple is now having to make a bigger iPhone. I'm sure apple made that decision on their own though, and not because consumers want it. Companies are successfully because of consumers. Companies rely on consumers. Not vice versa.
    Then I don't know why you seem to want BB to behave contemptuously towards a group of loyal consumers or take a contemptuous attitude.

    I don't think you're very clear on who Apple's consumers are or why they make the decisions that they do. Apple is not going to pander to what Samsung users want. That's not Apple's philosophy at all. Apple has probably done research on its own installed base. What will make its large installed base happy will eventually spill over onto the wider market, like it always has.
    02-25-14 07:47 AM
  12. kbz1960's Avatar
    Who says that crowd has moved on? They still have 10s of millions of active BBOS users and they still sell a few millions of them every quarter.

    Look at the facts. Some have moved on but many remain. To date have only been 5-6 million BB10 devices shipped, in one year. Do you honestly think BB can survive on that?


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    And you said you will move to something else even with the belt because you don't like BB10. I have to wonder how many more hold outs or whatever they want to call them feel like you? Seems the belt doesn't do it for you unless it's a new BBOS device.
    coldRooster likes this.
    02-25-14 07:47 AM
  13. Eupathic Impulse's Avatar
    It boils down to BB wanting to give its customers what they want (a very short sided view) or give them what they need.

    Trackpads and function keys = 250,000 really happy BB fanatics and a DEAD Blackberry.
    "Give them what they need": they don't need gestures. They have their place, but "gesture-based UI" is an SF movie fad.
    02-25-14 07:48 AM
  14. Eupathic Impulse's Avatar
    Again, people, look at the Windows 8 Start Button fiasco. That is what happens when you chase after a chimera, rather than understanding how it is people who love your products use your products.
    RyanGermann likes this.
    02-25-14 07:50 AM
  15. coldRooster's Avatar
    Then I don't know why you seem to want BB to behave contemptuously towards a group of loyal consumers or take a contemptuous attitude.

    I don't think you're very clear on who Apple's consumers are or why they make the decisions that they do. Apple is not going to pander to what Samsung users want. That's not Apple's philosophy at all. Apple has probably done research on its own installed base. What will make its large installed base happy will eventually spill over onto the wider market, like it always has.
    Because BlackBerry dedicated itself to a new OS. Now it's not going as well as planned so they go back to what they did before. Like another person said above. They go back because they are failing = dead blackberry. And Apple is making those phones because they either have or are worried about losing users to android because of the bigger phones or more available options.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    02-25-14 07:52 AM
  16. Eupathic Impulse's Avatar
    Because BlackBerry dedicated itself to a new OS. Now it's not going as well as planned so they go back to what they did before. Like another person said above. They go back because they are failing = dead blackberry. And Apple is making those phones because they either have or are worried about losing users to android because of the bigger phones or more available options.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    Yes. They are looking at their existing user base, and seeing what is the way in which a majority of their users want to interact with their product, and what will hold them, ultimately, to their ecosystem, their paradigm, their way of doing business.

    BB dedicated itself to a new OS, which is all well and good. Unfortunately, what they dedicated themselves too was based on a bad theory of overrated UX designers, in part with, to be fair, some pretty nice new ideas. A few. The execution was problematic, because it was too radical a change from the existing user base. You will never find Apple forcibly attempting to uproot their user's existing UX. You will find them...making a phablet that runs iOS!
    RyanGermann likes this.
    02-25-14 07:57 AM
  17. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    And you said you will move to something else even with the belt because you don't like BB10. I have to wonder how many more hold outs or whatever they want to call them feel like you? Seems the belt doesn't do it for you unless it's a new BBOS device.
    So did you, at least I gave BB10 a try, twice. You're still a BBOS user like me, you should be happy about the belt.

    If don't get why you argue so much when clearly BB10 isn't good enough for you belt or no belt.

    I don't think you ever intended yo buy a BB10 device.

    This marks a HUGE U-Turn for BB and I like it, BB10 could eventually be good enough for me.




    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    jefbeard911 likes this.
    02-25-14 07:57 AM
  18. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Because BlackBerry dedicated itself to a new OS. Now it's not going as well as planned so they go back to what they did before. Like another person said above. They go back because they are failing = dead blackberry. And Apple is making those phones because they either have or are worried about losing users to android because of the bigger phones or more available options.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    Exactly, the BB10 strategy has failed, time for a new one.

    First let's stop the remaining BBOS users leaving to other platforms.




    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-25-14 07:59 AM
  19. RyanGermann's Avatar
    They have made a phone with a belt in order to cater to the BBOS crowd when that crowd has already moved on. That's my point.
    I don't agree with that. Perhaps you don't believe that there are still 10s of millions of BBOS users actively using BBOS devices. How many currently-in-use BBOS devices do you think there are, actively in use, people use them every day? I think it's still something like 50 million.

    BlackBerry had to out the BB10 crowd on hold for a crowd that I don't think they will make a lot of money off of.
    Again you must think that for BlackBerry to make a device like the Q20 that the current BB10 experience must somehow diminish or be negatively impacted. If you haven't been convinced that the impact on "you" will be negligible or actually positive, then nothing anyone can say will convince you, and for the record, your counter-points haven't convinced me that you are right.

    and if they do then great! If not oh well.
    Well, we agree on that at least.
    02-25-14 08:20 AM
  20. kbz1960's Avatar
    So did you, at least I gave BB10 a try, twice. You're still a BBOS user like me, you should be happy about the belt.

    If don't get why you argue so much when clearly BB10 isn't good enough for you belt or no belt.

    I don't think you ever intended yo buy a BB10 device.

    This marks a HUGE U-Turn for BB and I like it, BB10 could eventually be good enough for me.




    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    No I've never said that. The only reason I'm still on legacy is because 1 my carrier offers zero BB10 phones, I'll have to change carriers an pay more for less, the belt will not entice me to upgrade. Plus I'm waiting to see if BBRY can quit being schizoid and stick to NE thing for longer than a month.

    When I asked you yesterday? What you would buy given a choice, a new BB10 with a belt or a new BBOS with a belt you said you tried BB10 and you would go for the new BBOS or move to something else. That's ok though, we all change our minds about things.

    Edit: I didn't know having an opinion was arguing.
    02-25-14 08:22 AM
  21. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    No I've never said that. The only reason I'm still on legacy is because 1 my carrier offers zero BB10 phones, I'll have to change carriers an pay more for less, the belt will not entice me to upgrade. Plus I'm waiting to see if BBRY can quit being schizoid and stick to NE thing for longer than a month.

    When I asked you yesterday? What you would buy given a choice, a new BB10 with a belt or a new BBOS with a belt you said you tried BB10 and you would go for the new BBOS or move to something else. That's ok though, we all change our minds about things.
    There's no guarantee the new BBOS device will materialise, if and when it does I'll be able to give you a definite answer.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    kbz1960 likes this.
    02-25-14 08:23 AM
  22. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Exactly, the BB10 strategy has failed, time for a new (OS).
    I don't want to oversimplify here, but if BB10 reintegrated BIS into the OS and had BBOS feature parity via settings and shortcuts, would that satisfy you? You're starting to sound a bit spiteful, not just dissatisfied with the missing functionality from BB10.

    First let's stop the remaining BBOS users leaving to other platforms.
    BB10 is "another platform" but its the platform that makes BB Ltd. money, while the others do not. The fact that BB10 was so different from BBOS is what has made it "another platform" so calling it QN10 would have been a more accurate but less "marketing-y" name for BB10. Nothing says "this is a totally different and unfamiliar platform" like a) Thor saying "not a single line of code" and b) having to run BES10 and BES5 in parallel to support both BB10 and BBOS devices. Just add that to the list of strategic errors "overcome" on Chen's watch (the announcement of BES12) although I acknowledge BES12 development started long before 3 months ago.
    02-25-14 08:28 AM
  23. jefbeard911's Avatar
    "Give them what they need": they don't need gestures. They have their place, but "gesture-based UI" is an SF movie fad.
    Tell that to Apple, Android, and Microsoft. They seem to be doing pretty well with it. Besides, Minortity Report, which I guess your referring to is a 10 year old movie. Before iOS, Android, and WP's time.. Guess RIM missed it. Too bad. Rock on 1% market share!
    kbz1960 and pantlesspenguin like this.
    02-25-14 08:29 AM
  24. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Again, people, look at the Windows 8 Start Button fiasco. That is what happens when you chase after a chimera, rather than understanding how it is people who love your products use your products.
    Microsoft used their virtual monopoly in the desktop space to force users to adopt a new user interface paradigm that would hopefully keep Microsoft relevant in a world where the 'traditional' user interaction (mouse and keyboard) has to share face time with full-touch devices (tablets). They needed their desktop users to adapt to THEIR full-touch interface by forcing it on them on the desktop... so as more PC users transition to half-time use on touchscreen phones or tablets, they'll gravitate to the Windows "Metro" design because they'll already have been forced at virtual 'gunpoint' by Microsoft to become accustomed to it.

    As business strategies go, it's a good one at a high level, but their 'execution' (no pun intended) was poor... they were clearly willing to risk some customer satisfaction, and they grossly underestimated the harshness of the reaction, so they're backing things out via Windows 8.1 and so on... only by bringing back the full Start menu and Desktop-mode focus like those Windows 8 addons do would they finally appease users... but that's probably farther away from "Metro" than Microsoft wants to go.
    02-25-14 08:33 AM
  25. deezy87's Avatar
    Wouldn't the menus keys ruin the whole BlackBerry Flow experience?

    I do not like it at all [belt], if the next high end qwerty has the belt, I'll stick to the Q10, over anything else.
    02-25-14 08:35 AM
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