04-05-14 05:42 PM
340 ... 23456 ...
tools
  1. kbz1960's Avatar
    Excellent. Now, why not.
    Because it says BlackBerry on it. The legacy users don't want a BB10 phone with legacy buttons. They want modern specs and buttons but they also want BBOS. It may very well do OK in enterprise but it would still surprise me if many would choose this phone over an android or iPhone like many are still doing today.
    02-24-14 12:46 PM
  2. kbz1960's Avatar
    I do, because BB10 is different enough from BB7 that BB7 users might as well switch to Android or iOS: there is no smooth upgrade path for BBOS users.

    Also, offering unique devices based on proprietary technology is a way to succeed, far better than offering similar devices that in measurable and significant ways are or are perceived to be 'inferior' to the competition, and a Belted device IS superior in measurable and significant ways over a touchscreen device, if not by every measure, but significant market-differentiating ones.

    Yes, they would have to sell "better" than the current lineup to be considered a success... but why do you think the alternative (full screen and keyboard devices without the Belt) WOULD sell. Since there is a calendar year of failure to sell as evidence against "beltless devices", I think the argument for the Belt fares far better than any argument against the Belt if you are going to talk about device form factors.
    I just think it hurts their image even more. They look schizoid. It looks like they are panicking and retreating to the fox hole once again. I guess if it happens we will see how well it sells. I just hope it is t going to be every phone they make.
    02-24-14 12:52 PM
  3. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Because it says BlackBerry on it. The legacy users don't want a BB10 phone with legacy buttons. They want modern specs and buttons but they also want BBOS. It may very well do OK in enterprise but it would still surprise me if many would choose this phone over an android or iPhone like many are still doing today.
    I don't think you are correct in your assessment of what the 10s of millions of BBOS users want or don't want.

    There's hard data that they certainly don't want BlackBerry 10 devices with either a keyboard or without, large screen or small, low-cost keyboard or premioum, large all-touch or 'smaller' all touch, whether at a launch-day price premium or heavily discounted "inventory mark down" price, none of which have the Belt on them, either. So... what is the common denominator here? Is it far fetched to suggest "none of them have the traditional Belt buttons" as a reason why there are still vastly more BBOS users than BB10 users? Do you have any suggestion as to what the devices should be, Belt-less, but be smash hits, moving end-user sales quantities in the 7 digits for devices sold? A lot of people suggest that if only they'd release a superphone with a octacore 4 GHz processor and 6 gig of ram with a 6" screen and 4K screen, THAT would be "it". I don't agree, but that's another thing to try, as is Belt-ing up a couple of devices.

    I just think it hurts their image even more. They look schizoid. It looks like they are panicking and retreating to the fox hole once again. I guess if it happens we will see how well it sells. I just hope it is t going to be every phone they make.
    I think the comment "not listening to their users" and 2 changes to the entire management team in 2 years shows poorly too... I think objections to adding the Belt because of the "optics" don't really hold water in terms of the actual impact in the market.

    That is to say, even if it DOES look slightly embarrassing to admit mistakes and go back to the drawing board, well, I would go over and sync my Newton to my Windows Millenium PC running Bob and get my notes on that one and get back to you.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 02-24-14 at 01:29 PM.
    02-24-14 12:58 PM
  4. jdcfinisher's Avatar
    Why do people keep talking about losing screen when talking about the track pad? What about the screen and keyboard being to different parts of the same device don't some people get? It's not one or the other. For the dense out there the phone is not a fixed size ! Adding to the keyboard length does not shorten the screen, it does how ever give more internal room for a bigger battery.

    Posted via CB10
    RyanGermann and Bbnivende like this.
    02-24-14 01:02 PM
  5. kbz1960's Avatar
    They certainly don't want BlackBerry 10 devices with either a keyboard or a screen, both a low-cost keyboard device and two sized of all touch devices, significantly marked down in price, that DON'T have the Belt on them, either. So... do you have any suggestion as to what the devices should be, Belt-less, but be smash hits, moving end-user sales quantities in the 7 digits for devices sold? A lot of people suggest that if only they'd release a superphone with a octacore 4 GHz processor and 6 gig of ram with a 6" screen and 4K screen, THAT would be "it". I don't agree, but that's another thing to try, as is Belt-ing up a couple of devices.



    I thing the comment "not listening to their users" and 2 changes to the entireo management team in 2 years shows poorly too... I think objections to adding the Belt because of the "optics" don't really hold water in terms of the actual impact in the market.
    I hope "their users" they listen to are the right users. From what I've seen on here "their users" are a minority. I guess this isn't really a good place to get a feel for what "their users" want as it isn't only people who have to sort thru thousands of emails a day from their cupcake company that come here.
    02-24-14 01:05 PM
  6. kbz1960's Avatar
    Why do people keep talking about losing screen when talking about the track pad? What about the screen and keyboard being to different parts of the same device don't some people get? It's not one or the other. For the dense out there the phone is not a fixed size ! Adding to the keyboard length does not shorten the screen, it does how ever give more internal room for a bigger battery.

    Posted via CB10
    And at some point the whole thing becomes top heavy and not ergonomic.
    02-24-14 01:08 PM
  7. RyanGermann's Avatar
    I hope "their users" they listen to are the right users. From what I've seen on here "their users" are a minority. I guess this isn't really a good place to get a feel for what "their users" want as it isn't only people who have to sort thru thousands of emails a day from their cupcake company that come here.
    I challenge that assertion: there are tens of millions of BBOS users that are STILL on BBOS devices but haven't upgraded to BB10. Saying that the vast majority are not the "right users" seems like something is missing in your rationale. I don't know if it can be put to words, but I'll try to put it in my own words.

    Hardware buttons were all that the world of device designers had to work with when BBOS devices were designed: capacitive touchscreens weren't common, and resistive touchscreens were, and in many ways still are, crappy from a UX perspective.

    But now that we have capacitive buttons and screens, the tactile experience afforded by physical buttons that are purpose built to do ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY are "bad"? I wonder why all the elevator buttons have changed from touch-based back to good old physical buttons? Sometimes, you LOSE something "moving forward" and going back is a GOOD idea, not a bad one.

    And at some point the whole thing becomes top heavy and not ergonomic.
    False. The Torch slider wasn't a problem. You slide the screen forward (which some might expect would throw the balance way off) and nope, it doesn't tip out of your hand. And you can compensate with a slight counterweight in the bottom of the device if the center of gravity is off... I'd do it by positioning the battery near the bottom of the device and making it BIGGER if I needed the device to be more bottom-heavy, which sounds like a longer battery which is another BONUS for adding the Belt.

    Oh, and kbz1960: I respect you alot, but that doesn't mean I can let this slide: did you say that despite your objections to the Belt you haven't upgraded to BB10 yet? For the love of pete why are you arguing against something that might bring a whole bunch more BBOS users (not you, but others) to BB10? What is it you're waiting for BB10 to become before you upgrade?
    neoberry99 likes this.
    02-24-14 01:24 PM
  8. kbz1960's Avatar
    Oops.................
    02-24-14 01:31 PM
  9. kbz1960's Avatar
    I challenge that assertion: there are tens of millions of BBOS users that are STILL on BBOS devices but haven't upgraded to BB10. Saying that the vast majority are not the "right users" seems like something is missing in your rationale. I don't know if it can be put to words, but I'll try to put it in my own words.

    Hardware buttons were all that the world of device designers had to work with when BBOS devices were designed: capacitive touchscreens weren't common, and resistive touchscreens were, and in many ways still are, crappy from a UX perspective.

    But now that we have capacitive buttons and screens, the tactile experience afforded by physical buttons that are purpose built to do ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY are "bad"? I wonder why all the elevator buttons have changed from touch-based back to good old physical buttons? Sometimes, you LOSE something "moving forward" and going back is a GOOD idea, not a bad one.



    False. The Torch slider wasn't a problem. You slide the screen forward (which some might expect would throw the balance way off) and nope, it doesn't tip out of your hand. And you can compensate with a slight counterweight in the bottom of the device if the center of gravity is off... I'd do it by positioning the battery near the bottom of the device and making it BIGGER if I needed the device to be more bottom-heavy, which sounds like a longer battery which is another BONUS for adding the Belt.

    Oh, and kbz1960: I respect you alot, but that doesn't mean I can let this slide: did you say that despite your objections to the Belt you haven't upgraded to BB10 yet? For the love of pete why are you arguing against something that might bring a whole bunch more BBOS users (not you, but others) to BB10? What is it you're waiting for BB10 to become before you upgrade?
    I already posted why unless I goofed cause I got busy at work and forgot.

    Edit: I also said "their users" that blackberry is talking about seem to be a minority on CB.
    02-24-14 01:35 PM
  10. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I already posted why unless I goofed cause I got busy at work and forgot.

    Edit: I also said "their users" that blackberry is talking about seem to be a minority on CB.
    That's because we're called trolls or Luddites or every other word when we state out preference for legacy things.

    The reality is we've been pushed out or made to feel like we don't belong.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-24-14 01:43 PM
  11. kbz1960's Avatar
    That's because we're called trolls or Luddites or every other word when we state out preference for legacy things.

    The reality is we've been pushed out or made to feel like we don't belong.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    Hey bfd. Given your choice what would you choose?

    A souped up BBOS device or a BB10 device with a belt?
    02-24-14 01:46 PM
  12. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Hey bfd. Given your choice what would you choose?

    A souped up BBOS device or a BB10 device with a belt?
    I already tried BB10 with the Z10 and Q10, no more, it's BBOS and/or something else for me.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    kbz1960 likes this.
    02-24-14 01:49 PM
  13. RyanGermann's Avatar
    I already posted why unless I goofed cause I got busy at work and forgot.

    Edit: I also said "their users" that blackberry is talking about seem to be a minority on CB.
    Fair enough, but I hope I have made the point that I'm not talking about current BB10 users at all here, mostly BBOS users and POSSIBLY dissatisfied Android / iOS / FeaturePhone users. As far as I know Windows Phone users are all perfectly delighted so don't think leaving them out means any disrespect... but they're welcome to come to BB10 if they think the grass is greener. After all, Windows Phone gave the world this:

    Why the Trackpad (Belt) hate?-2451.dell-venue-pro-_2800_with-keyboard_2900_.jpg

    That's because we're called trolls or Luddites or every other word when we state out preference for legacy things. The reality is we've been pushed out or made to feel like we don't belong.
    This is hard to argue with unfortunately :-(

    Hey bfd. Given your choice what would you choose?

    A souped up BBOS device or a BB10 device with a belt?
    Third option: a BB10 Belted device with BBOS feature parity... but without BIS support in the device and on the network, I don't think BD would be satisfied based on the posts I've read detailing what he values most about his BBOS device... which is bad for BD, and as I said earlier in the topic, I'm not versed in the hardcore benefits of BIS and lament that carriers don't / can't see BIS as an "opportunity" rather than a liability... whyever that is.
    02-24-14 01:53 PM
  14. ssbtech's Avatar
    Yes. Developers.

    BlackBerry already has a problem attracting developers to the platform. This will only make their job harder than it is (having to develop for Z10 and Z3 and then changing their apps for the Q10.

    Throw a track pad in there? You have a bigger problem.
    I don't think the buttons or trackpad would make it frustrating for developments.

    If implemented properly, the buttons and trackpad would simply replicate the on-screen and gesture functions.

    Pressing the "call" buttons would bring up the phone, pressing the "BlackBerry" key would simply bring up the overflow menu and using the trackpad would simply move a cursor on the screen.

    Developers would in no way be inconvenienced by a properly implemented set of buttons and trackpad.
    RyanGermann likes this.
    02-24-14 01:56 PM
  15. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I don't think the buttons or trackpad would make it frustrating for developments.

    If implemented properly, the buttons and trackpad would simply replicate the on-screen and gesture functions.

    Pressing the "call" buttons would bring up the phone, pressing the "BlackBerry" key would simply bring up the overflow menu and using the trackpad would simply move a cursor on the screen.

    Developers would in no way be inconvenienced by a properly implemented set of buttons and trackpad.
    It will also liberate a lot of the screen, especially on the Q10.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-24-14 02:01 PM
  16. sentimentGX4's Avatar
    The trackpad/belt is a major affront to the BB10 design paradigm, especially when the engineers made such a big deal about having no buttons, and the trackpad seems silly on a touchscreen.

    BB10 should have some buttons; but, adding the entire trackpad is a step too far. Maybe some soft buttons like Android would have sufficed.
    02-24-14 02:02 PM
  17. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    The trackpad/belt is a major affront to the BB10 design paradigm, especially when the engineers made such a big deal about having no buttons, and the trackpad seems silly on a touchscreen.

    BB10 should have some buttons; but, adding the entire trackpad is a step too far.
    BB10 paradigm has been a failure, time for a new or old paradigm


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-24-14 02:05 PM
  18. kylef5993's Avatar
    Praise Chen and Hallelujah.

    http://forums.crackberry.com/general...g-back-908892/

    99% of Anti-Belt bias comes down to "Trackpad is old, touchscreen is new, old is bad, new is good"...
    ..that just isn't true at all. People don't want a belt because the Q10 already has a small screen. You're just throwing away screen real estate by throwing a belt on it. Plus what would be the point when you have all the buttons on the screen anyways...

    Posted via CB10
    02-24-14 02:06 PM
  19. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    ..that just isn't true at all. People don't want a belt because the Q10 already has a small screen. You're just throwing away screen real estate by throwing a belt on it. Plus what would be the point when you have all the buttons on the screen anyways...

    Posted via CB10
    The belt is part of the keyboard nitb the screen, the screen will not be affected, the belt will actually liberate a good portion of the screen by eliminating the bottom band.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-24-14 02:08 PM
  20. kylef5993's Avatar
    Honestly I don't think this should even be considered. They added a touchscreen not because it was "new" but because it is smarter and easier.

    It is smarter in the sense that you just opened an extra half inch of screen space. And it is easier because it's a screen and you don't need to fumble around with buttons. I feel like adding this would simply be going back in technology. They need to stop focusing on getting bbos7 users and work on stealing iOS and Android users.

    Posted via CB10
    02-24-14 02:09 PM
  21. kylef5993's Avatar
    The belt is part of the keyboard nitb the screen, the screen will not be affected, the belt will actually liberate a good portion of the screen by eliminating the bottom band.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    But then the phone would be longer.. so what you're saying is that since BlackBerry already has plans to make the next Q phone's screen bigger they are also going to add a belt on it? This qwerty phone is going to be huge.

    Posted via CB10
    02-24-14 02:11 PM
  22. Bbnivende's Avatar
    And at some point the whole thing becomes top heavy and not ergonomic.
    I have never said this before but your post is totally clueless. Yes, if they added a physical keyboard to to the bottom of a Z10 or a Z30 the ergonomics would be wanting. If they add a belt to a Q10 the device will still be shorter than most if not all popular phones on the market. I have said this many times. The issue with the Q models is they they can not be much wider. With a 1:1 screen the Q will never be a big device unless they want an improperly wide device. You should look at a 9900 or a Q tear down. The screen or for that matter the keyboard add very little weight to the device.

    Perhaps if they made a Q with a 4:3 screen then having a belt might be an option that they could avoid. If it were a question of real screen real estate then I would vote for the screen. As far as any phone being top heavy, that just should not be with a good design and computers involved in making the phone.
    02-24-14 02:13 PM
  23. RyanGermann's Avatar
    The trackpad/belt is a major affront to the BB10 design paradigm, especially when the engineers made such a big deal about having no buttons, and the trackpad seems silly on a touchscreen.
    The designers erred. Continuing to make the same mistake doesn't fix the problem.

    How does it seem silly. You mean, a "virtual trackpad"?

    If you are a BB10 user you must download and try the editor that has the virtual trackpad: the developer is Yuri Salkinov and it's pretty easy to find, but here's a link to the Web-browser page for it:

    TrackPad Editor - BlackBerry World

    It's great, but you may find that it's not so simple to use without the physical tactile response (i.e. you can't feel where it is with your thumb because it's flat on the screen, not raised).

    BB10 should have some buttons; but, adding the entire trackpad is a step too far. Maybe some soft buttons like Android would have sufficed.
    ALL the top-selling devices have hard buttons, period. It's impossible to argue with that, but you can debate the NATURE of the hard buttons... but one things for sure, if people do like hard buttons, BB devices with the Belt are the hardest buttoniest devices EVER!

    Here are a number of polls showing how many people want hard buttons. Just about half want phones with hardware buttons.

    http://www.androidpolice.com/2011/12...tware-buttons/

    http://www.addictivetips.com/android...do-you-prefer/

    If there are any polls of this nature showing an overwhelming preference for virtual buttons, I can't find it. If half the people want physical buttons for whatever reason, that's not insignificant.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 02-24-14 at 02:31 PM.
    Bbnivende likes this.
    02-24-14 02:14 PM
  24. RyanGermann's Avatar
    But then the phone would be longer.. so what you're saying is that since BlackBerry already has plans to make the next Q phone's screen bigger they are also going to add a belt on it? This qwerty phone is going to be huge.
    and huge is bad why now?
    02-24-14 02:22 PM
  25. Bbnivende's Avatar
    So you are in the market for a BB10 device or you are an android user looking for something new and you do not like the looks of WP8. If you can find one, are you going to think - I better not buy a Z30 because they offer a Q10 (etc) with phone buttons. Of course not. If you are in the market for a physical keyboard device with its small screen are you going to not buy it because of the belt, of course not.

    I looked back at the reviews for the 9900 and the all touch 9850 and the reviewers of the all touch phone did not appreciate the trackpad where as the reviewers of the 9900 liked the trackpad or were silent on the issue. The bottom line is that there are different standards for physical keyboard devices that have small screens. Users and reviewers can accept the difference, why can not Z owners ?
    02-24-14 02:26 PM
340 ... 23456 ...

Similar Threads

  1. The Trackpad is Coming Back! Q20
    By tomsobon in forum BlackBerry Classic
    Replies: 656
    Last Post: 08-15-14, 01:31 PM
  2. Why BlackBerry Should NOT Bring Back the Trackpad
    By coldRooster in forum Rehab & Off-Topic Lounge
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 02-26-14, 04:04 PM
  3. Hands-on with the Android-powered Nokia XL
    By Bla1ze in forum Android
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-24-14, 06:02 PM
  4. Newest BlackBerry 10 device could see the return of the trackpad and function keys
    By CrackBerry News in forum CrackBerry.com News Discussion & Contests
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-24-14, 07:30 AM
  5. BBM Live Video Feed Channel ....on the move real time
    By BB10Funding in forum BlackBerry Q10
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-24-14, 04:52 AM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD