04-05-14 05:42 PM
340 ... 11121314
tools
  1. drkpitt's Avatar
    I think that the belt reinforces the negative image of old and ancient technology that people associate with BB7 or earlier. While it's iconic and has a few advantages in certain situations (even less overall movement for your thumb at times to cover lots of distance and navigate menu selections or switch apps), but for the most part it will get in the way for people who are accustomed to the simple and forgiving peek gestures and are quite good with the text editing tools, swiping between apps, etc.

    I completely understand the need to create a phone that has the belt, especially if the majority of the user base that has yet to upgrade requested it and expects it. No matter how much you try to explain how much better BB10 is without the belt, it won't matter and they won't listen. The folks who are still using BB7 don't want much change.

    I'd say that it's going to be pretty awkward to do the peek gestures with the trackpad sitting right in front of it, or more likely there will be a trackpad version of BB10 that has a different workflow or no peek at all. This is likely another reason they need five months to release the phone; the OS will need to be upgraded to accommodate it and having icons highlight with the trackpad (I believe the real reason the Q10 was later than the Z10 was to accommodate the keyboard differences, shortcuts, etc.)

    While I don't want the trackpad back myself, I can see the business reason for it. What I would strongly advise John Chen to do is completely separate the branding from the more modern gesture based BB10 devices, so even consider not calling it the Q20 but the C20 ("Classic 20"). Apple has made it easy to understand their product lines so people don't have to figure out what each model was for. BlackBerry will really start to confuse people if they have completely different phones within the Q line that have completely different look and feel. Even the Z10 and Z30 fall into this nebulous area.
    Morty2264 likes this.
    02-26-14 01:40 AM
  2. Eupathic Impulse's Avatar

    I completely understand the need to create a phone that has the belt, especially if the majority of the user base that has yet to upgrade requested it and expects it. No matter how much you try to explain how much better BB10 is without the belt, it won't matter and they won't listen. The folks who are still using BB7 don't want much change.
    You don't have to explain anything, because there is nothing to explain. I am using BB10 -- as are many of the trackpad fans on this site -- in the form of a Q10. I can quite confidently say, after several months of Q10 ownership, that it is not better without the belt/trackpad. So I guess I get your point, but maybe not in the way you intended it. If you can't convince some of the people who have fully experienced your "gesture-based" nirvana (and don't get me wrong, it's not ALL bad), how exactly are you going to convince BB7 holdouts?
    02-26-14 05:03 AM
  3. --TommesJay--'s Avatar
    I'm with you, OP.

    Let's see it from a marketing perspective (and by the term 'marketing' I mean real marketing by definition, not 'marketing = ads').

    Strategic Marketing means aiming at certain market+product combinations. The 'market' is defined by the target group of potential customers. BlackBerry continues to offer classic BlackBerry QWERTY phones and they have a certain group of customers with this in mind, they want to serve, and want to serve better than the competition. The customers BlackBerry targets with its classic QWERTY phones are

    "Business- and messaging centric power users that want a hardware QWERTY keyboard". The values and benefits these people seek with their phones are...
    • Strong battery life
    • Best in class call quality and reception
    • Strong PIM and messaging capabilities
    • FAST and EASY to handle UI to...
    • ...get things done always ASAP


    But since the technology evolved heavily over the past years, even business centric power users don't want to pass on things like...

    • Fast and compatible web browsing
    • Multimedia capabilities
    • Social media apps
    • Service and information apps
    • fun apps


    Now let's get over to the vast majority of smartphone users today. Those users that buy iPhones and Galaxy devices in droves: the average consumer. This target group is simple to describe:

    "Give me the latest and greatest fancy device". These guys go for...

    • Hardware design
    • Modern, sophisticated, stylish, fast and easy to use UX
    • Great camera
    • Powerful hardware
    • Brilliant display
    • Multimedia
    • Apps


    BlackBerry targets this group of users (at least partially) with their "High End" product line, whose latest iteration is the Z30, with a ZXX coming later this year. These are the phones that are supposed to get out the BB10 word and the sophisticated, modern gesture-based OS - simply because it competes in a marketplace where phones don't carry any buttons at all. BB10s gesture based approach tries to deliver value by solving a problem: navigating button-less phones without virtual buttons.

    Bottom line is, with the Z and Q lines, BlackBerry aims at two vastly different product+market combinations and therefore they don't plan on deploying the BELT to Z devices.

    Now what it comes down to, is the following question: Wich of the following target groups is bigger?

    "Business- and messaging centric power users that want a hardware QWERTY keyboard" or
    "BlackBerry fans that want a hardware QWERTY keyboard but also care about having a modern, sophisticated and stylish touchscreen UI paradigm 3rd parties don't judge as 'old'"

    Guess what: I think the latter of the two groups is far too small and only exists here on CrackBerry. People that want BlackBerry to be 'cool' again - even with a QWERTY keyboard. But let me tell you: the big picture is that QWERTY phones are and will remain a niche market and it's completely pointless to try to make QWERTY phones 'cool again' for the "Give me the latest and greatest fancy device" people. Those people are gone and BlackBerry should go for them through the Z series, without a BELT, which they do.

    So if you want to serve a niche, make sure product quality for the targeted customers is the best possible and create a truly differentiated product for this group of people. And as it stands, a BELT may look like an 'old BlackBerry', but it adds value to the product and the "Business- and messaging centric power users that want a hardware QWERTY keyboard" - it's serving them better. Because these people don't want "the latest and coolest UI paradigm", they want their classic BlackBerry QWERTY device further enhanced. And a Q20 with an even bigger screen, more power and the beloved and familiar BELT serves this purpose best.
    02-26-14 07:28 AM
  4. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Guess what: I think the latter of the two groups is far too small and only exists here on CrackBerry. People that want BlackBerry to be 'cool' again - even with a QWERTY keyboard. But let me tell you: the big picture is that QWERTY phones are and will remain a niche market and it's completely pointless to try to make QWERTY phones 'cool again' for the "Give me the latest and greatest fancy device" people. Those people are gone and BlackBerry should go for them through the Z series, without a BELT, which they do.
    It depends on whether or not you put a QWERTY slider in the "QWERTY Keyboard" group. I think that the components in devices have gotten small enough that users aren't asking for devices to be even thinner than they are, but how "thick" is too thick? If a full-screen slider device has all the best of a full touchscreen in terms of screen size and quality and performance and battery life, but is just a swish away from a physical qwerty keyboard (as apposed to that odd Typo keyboard) then I think the appeal of "QWERTY devices", especially one that is made with BlackBerry's best of class keyboard technology, will be far less of a "niche" device (i.e. if 10% of your customer base want it, is it "niche" or "small segment"?)

    So if you want to serve a niche, make sure product quality for the targeted customers is the best possible and create a truly differentiated product for this group of people. And as it stands, a BELT may look like an 'old BlackBerry', but it adds value to the product and the "Business- and messaging centric power users that want a hardware QWERTY keyboard" - it's serving them better. Because these people don't want "the latest and coolest UI paradigm", they want their classic BlackBerry QWERTY device further enhanced. And a Q20 with an even bigger screen, more power and the beloved and familiar BELT serves this purpose best.
    I want the latest and greatest AND want the best screen and fastest processor etc. I upgraded my Z10 to a Z30 but if a device as powerful or more than a Z30 came out in a portrait slider format I'd ditch my Z30 is a second (imagine that bullet-firing sound and the cloud of smoke left in my place as I dart to the nearest retailer where I could buy the device).

    Seen another way: suppose two devices were released with identical form factors, QWERTY with Belt, but one being a budget device and the other being state-of-the-art in every way. If QWERTY users aren't interested in "cutting edge" no one would bother with the SotA device... but you and I both know that a SotA device WITH a QWERTY keyboard and Belt would probably sell in the same proportions as the Q10 and Q5... but most users DO want that full touchscreen, so the small screen is the compromise they're not willing to make.

    Ergo: BB10 Belted Portrait Slider large-screen SotA Superphone featuring patented the BlackBerry hardware human interface components is the ultimate MOBILE DEVICE. Not just BB10 device. ULTIMATE, superior to Android and iPhone. Possibly slightly thicker and slightly heavier and slightly costlier than any other device, but TOTALLY AWESOMER.
    02-26-14 09:37 AM
  5. garnok's Avatar
    trackpad BB is great way to convinced past BB legacy user...but not in another 9-10 months, if they want to attract past BB legacy user they have to launch it as soon as

    in 9 - 10 months timeframe , lot of BB legacy user will migrate to android, ios, wp8, bb10..they will getting used by non trackpad phone.. releasing trackpad phone on end of year will be unecessary, and wasting lot of money
    02-26-14 09:43 AM
  6. vivekman08's Avatar
    I think there is no need to use again took belt and track pad, because due to this the screen size will be decreased and the hand set will also not look good. And there is no need of track pad and any tool belt in bbos 10.

    Posted via CB10
    02-26-14 10:18 AM
  7. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I think there is no need to use again took belt and track pad, because due to this the screen size will be decreased and the hand set will also not look good. And there is no need of track pad and any tool belt in bbos 10.

    Posted via CB10
    Lmao, how do people still miss that the screen will actually get bigger compared to the Q10?


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-26-14 10:25 AM
  8. CoyoteV8's Avatar
    Lmao, how do people still miss that the screen will actually get bigger compared to the Q10?


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    I think the point is the screen could be even larger without the trackpad/buttons.
    02-26-14 10:43 AM
  9. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I think the point is the screen could be even larger without the trackpad/buttons.
    With that attitude it's not long before you'll end up with a full touch device


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-26-14 10:46 AM
  10. CoyoteV8's Avatar
    With that attitude it's not long before you'll end up with a full touch device


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    I'm already there! iPad mini retina when needed. Let's not get too off track here...

    I personally don't see a huge need for the belt/trackpad, but can understand how some would like and use them. I think the Q10 looks more modern with just the screen and keyboard. As long as BB makes another Q phone post "Q20" that doesn't have the belt, this doesn't bother me one bit.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    02-26-14 11:00 AM
  11. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Another puzzling outcome of this is apparently how closely tied the "prestige" of the device factors in to one's self esteem.

    So many apparently oppose the return of the Belt because they're worried that their friends will mock them.

    If "Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids" was still on the air, that would be a great script idea for modern times.

    "you know, if l'il RyanGermann knew what was really important, he'd pay less attention to what his so-called friends think of his phone, and more attention to how he feels about himself."

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 02-26-14 at 01:54 PM.
    02-26-14 01:27 PM
  12. BBMore's Avatar
    Just throwing it out there and maybe its been said but... Part of the "belt" was a back button and one is needed to utilize Android apps on the BBRY. So does anyone think that the resurgence of the "belt" (specifically the back button) is a move towards better Android app integration?

    Just a thought.
    RyanGermann likes this.
    02-26-14 01:42 PM
  13. RyanGermann's Avatar
    I think the point is the screen could be even larger without the trackpad/buttons.
    By larger do you mean slightly less square vertically or a bigger square? the limiting factor is the width; if the square screen gets any larger it would widen the device, and if it gets taller only, that would introduce another screen resolution.

    if you said that to make the device taller to accommodate the Belt (and you think that is very bad for some reason, hopefully a reason you could articulate) you might have a credible objection, but as yet there hasn't been a single "negative impact on the screen" complaint that bears scrutiny.

    Posted via CB10
    Bbnivende likes this.
    02-26-14 02:05 PM
  14. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    There will be 4 ranges (Affordable, Classic, High-End, Presitge) for people with different needs and budgets.

    Buy the one you need and don't bash the people who buy a different BlackBerry to you.
    Tatwi likes this.
    02-26-14 03:35 PM
  15. creowano's Avatar
    The belt is killing BlackBerry Flow, which is actually THE key factor for BlackBerry 10.

    Posted via CB10
    Morty2264 and BB_Junky like this.
    02-26-14 04:06 PM
  16. rbrar03's Avatar
    If you can sell it then build it

    Posted via CB10
    02-26-14 04:38 PM
  17. CoyoteV8's Avatar
    By larger do you mean slightly less square vertically or a bigger square? the limiting factor is the width; if the square screen gets any larger it would widen the device, and if it gets taller only, that would introduce another screen resolution.

    if you said that to make the device taller to accommodate the Belt (and you think that is very bad for some reason, hopefully a reason you could articulate) you might have a credible objection, but as yet there hasn't been a single "negative impact on the screen" complaint that bears scrutiny.

    Posted via CB10
    I never said the belt was bad. I actually said I personally wouldn't like it, but can see how some users would if you read my post. Belt not being there implies more vertical screen space, I didn't think that needed explanation. I'm not arguing anything here, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by quoting me for an explanation on my stance.
    02-26-14 04:50 PM
  18. donnation's Avatar
    Didn't BB just release a short time ago an OS7 device with the belt and trackpad? Did anyone purchase that phone?
    kbz1960 likes this.
    02-26-14 08:13 PM
  19. RyanGermann's Avatar
    I never said the belt was bad. I actually said I personally wouldn't like it, but can see how some users would if you read my post. Belt not being there implies more vertical screen space, I didn't think that needed explanation. I'm not arguing anything here, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by quoting me for an explanation on my stance.
    I just asked about clarification on the screen size, and instead of answering, you say, ^^^ that.

    I won't even put forward an opinion on the possibilities, but I'll spell it out for the 'public' if you don't want to go on the record.

    What would the pixel resolution of this screen be? The current Q10 screen at 3.1" diagonally is 2.25 inches high and wide, at a resolution of 720 px by 720 px. It's a square.

    1) Maintaining that width, if you're suggesting a 1280 x 720 screen, the screen would be about the same size as the Z10 screen (4" tall) and the touch sensitive bezel and keyboard would be below the screen. That screen is 1.75 inches longer than the current Q10 screen. Either you're suggesting the "space that could be used for the screen" is less than 1.75 inches, or this device will at least 6 inches long without the Belt. The belt will not be 1.75 inches high.

    2) Or, you're suggesting a resolution other than 1280 high... introducing a new resolution like 960 x 720 or 800 x 720.

    3) Or suggesting the 1280 high resolution, but reducing the width of the screen so that the longer vertical resolution fits into the same space as the current screen the 1 cm saved by leaving off the Belt.

    So, sorry, I can't figure it out.

    Logical responses are: 1) silence, 2) "mea culpa, leaving the Belt off doesn't actually 'save space for the screen'", and 3) some kind of defensive angry rant. (I'd go with 1)
    02-26-14 08:38 PM
  20. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I just asked about clarification on the screen size, and instead of answering, you say, ^^^ that.

    I won't even put forward an opinion on the possibilities, but I'll spell it out for the 'public' if you don't want to go on the record.

    What would the pixel resolution of this screen be? The current Q10 screen at 3.1" diagonally is 2.25 inches high and wide, at a resolution of 720 px by 720 px. It's a square.

    1) Maintaining that width, if you're suggesting a 1280 x 720 screen, the screen would be about the same size as the Z10 screen (4" tall) and the touch sensitive bezel and keyboard would be below the screen. That screen is 1.75 inches longer than the current Q10 screen. Either you're suggesting the "space that could be used for the screen" is less than 1.75 inches, or this device will at least 6 inches long without the Belt. The belt will not be 1.75 inches high.

    2) Or, you're suggesting a resolution other than 1280 high... introducing a new resolution like 960 x 720 or 800 x 720.

    3) Or suggesting the 1280 high resolution, but reducing the width of the screen so that the longer vertical resolution fits into the same space as the current screen the 1 cm saved by leaving off the Belt.

    So, sorry, I can't figure it out.

    Logical responses are: 1) silence, 2) "mea culpa, leaving the Belt off doesn't actually 'save space for the screen'", and 3) some kind of defensive angry rant. (I'd go with 1)
    Having looked at many many posts on this subject prior to and after the release of the Q10 my interpretation is that the favorite format for a Q screen is a 960 x 720. Using the screen width of the Q20 (as we understand it) the screen would be 3.3 x 2.475 inches or 4.125 on the diagonal. I would think this device similar in size to a Z30.

    I think this phone would not need a belt.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using CB Forums mobile app
    02-26-14 11:30 PM
  21. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Didn't BB just release a short time ago an OS7 device with the belt and trackpad? Did anyone purchase that phone?
    I did but returned it.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-27-14 01:09 AM
  22. donnation's Avatar
    I did but returned it.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    Out of curiosity why did you return it?
    02-27-14 05:57 AM
  23. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Out of curiosity why did you return it?
    It was simply crap, basically they tried to run BB7 on BB5 specs, the phone had less memory then the 9700. Plus it broke in a few days.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-27-14 05:59 AM
  24. donnation's Avatar
    It was simply crap, basically they tried to run BB7 on BB5 specs, the phone had less memory then the 9700. Plus it broke in a few days.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    Geez, that sucks. Thanks for the info.
    02-27-14 06:01 AM
  25. kbz1960's Avatar
    It was simply crap, basically they tried to run BB7 on BB5 specs, the phone had less memory then the 9700. Plus it broke in a few days.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    Geez, they put a whole lot of effort into that one.
    02-27-14 07:23 AM
340 ... 11121314

Similar Threads

  1. The Trackpad is Coming Back! Q20
    By tomsobon in forum BlackBerry Classic
    Replies: 656
    Last Post: 08-15-14, 01:31 PM
  2. Why BlackBerry Should NOT Bring Back the Trackpad
    By coldRooster in forum Rehab & Off-Topic Lounge
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 02-26-14, 04:04 PM
  3. Hands-on with the Android-powered Nokia XL
    By Bla1ze in forum Android
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-24-14, 06:02 PM
  4. Newest BlackBerry 10 device could see the return of the trackpad and function keys
    By CrackBerry News in forum CrackBerry.com News Discussion & Contests
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-24-14, 07:30 AM
  5. BBM Live Video Feed Channel ....on the move real time
    By BB10Funding in forum BlackBerry Q10
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-24-14, 04:52 AM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD