04-05-14 05:42 PM
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  1. codiak's Avatar
    My personal experience from running a fleet of BlackBerry devices on a BES, dealing with friends / family and to my own devices over the years.. I can say that the track pad was one of the most regular parts of a device to fail.

    So the notion of its return fills me with dread, more people complaining that their device is away for 2 weeks or so for repair because the pad has broken down.

    I sure hope they have learned from the failed units and made a more robust version this time around!
    02-25-14 11:30 AM
  2. zachgeo's Avatar
    As a Z10 user, I miss the trackpad for things like editing my emails and texts, and I can't stand the bubble. Not sure I would really need the other belt keys. As long as all of the functionality of BB10 is not compromised, and the screen size is decent, I'd buy a Q20 in a heartbeat. As to many legacy users unwilling to jump ship to BB10, I can say that my business partner is one of them. Her Torch was falling apart when I switched to Z10, so I gave her mine. She won't give it up until something like the Q20 is out. I'd imagine there are others like her out there...
    Last edited by zachgeo; 02-25-14 at 11:47 AM.
    02-25-14 11:35 AM
  3. Lincoln Liking's Avatar
    I don't understand the hate either. I think this would be a great transition device for those who enjoy the BB Os 7 experience. I know a lot of you may not have a use for the device, but there are millions who would. If you want more screen size then get a full touch device. There are so many options, why complain about something that's not for you anyway? Just my two cents.
    RyanGermann and Ragbert like this.
    02-25-14 11:57 AM
  4. rotorwrench's Avatar
    [QUOTE=coldRooster;10046754]
    The pinch to zoom is slow

    Pinch to zoom is as fast you can pinch to zoom. I don't understand. Maybe you should pinch faster.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    I'd love to see you pinch-to-zoom one handed.
    02-25-14 12:00 PM
  5. mphillips828's Avatar
    Does anyone else think the belt and track pad will be updated and not exactly what we all expect? It may very well be but seeing as it is BB10 and new devices blackberry really should be updating the design and look/feel of the belt and track pad.

    As we saw with the leaked windmere or whatever it's called. It has 3 rows of keyboard instead of the 4 we are used too. So thats probably how they would make up for the space without adding more space. I really hope they integrate the track pad into the space bar as has been leaked on the "dev d - windmere" device. And the put the function keys on the side of the spacebar/trackpad as touchscreen buttons or capacitive buttons. (not actual physical buttons).

    That would be the best way into the future. The q20 concepts I have seen they just basically made the z30 design with a keyboard and plopped in the old bar from years back. BlackBerry cannot use the same styles as they did years ago. Must update it.

    Posted via CB10
    rotorwrench likes this.
    02-25-14 12:03 PM
  6. ChrisLeNeve's Avatar
    I'm kinda 50/50 on this topic. The belt can be useful for clicking small links and stuff but in terms of mouse like navigation, it does a poor job. Always too slow or way too fast. At least that's what I've noticed on my Torch 9800. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hater, but just don't get the point of it. It brings us back to the non-tactile smartphone days and can not make up for a poor touch screen (small links on a small screen, for example).

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9800 using Tapatalk
    02-25-14 12:03 PM
  7. timberdc's Avatar
    I can't wait until they bring back the SurePress screen!
    kbz1960 and BB_Junky like this.
    02-25-14 12:06 PM
  8. rotorwrench's Avatar
    My personal experience from running a fleet of BlackBerry devices on a BES, dealing with friends / family and to my own devices over the years.. I can say that the track pad was one of the most regular parts of a device to fail.

    So the notion of its return fills me with dread, more people complaining that their device is away for 2 weeks or so for repair because the pad has broken down.

    I sure hope they have learned from the failed units and made a more robust version this time around!
    Not discounting your experience, ours has been the opposite. 18 phones in our company over four years, business and service use, inside and outside, 90F to -30F, on ramps and in hangars, with only two trackpad failures is pretty good. We were pleased with our service and reliability of the 9650s and 9930s.
    02-25-14 12:07 PM
  9. coldRooster's Avatar
    [QUOTE=rotorwrench;10051931]

    I'd love to see you pinch-to-zoom one handed.
    Like I and others have stated. If you have big hands, it's possible. If you're incapable if doing it one handed, its not my problem you have tiny hands. Also, double tap will zoom too.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    02-25-14 12:10 PM
  10. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Like I and others have stated. If you have big hands, it's possible. If you're incapable if doing it one handed, its not my problem you have tiny hands. Also, double tap will zoom too.
    It's statements like that that are dismissive of the needs of others that make one argumentative, I think. You've said in other posts that it's not skin off your back if they release a device with the Belt, but time and time again people say how the touchscreen is "inferior" to the Trackpad for certain things then you respond with "it's not my fault you have small hands". Come on, now.

    ...and after participating in this topic from the outset... I think that you're still against the notion of BlackBerry releasing the Q20 IN ADDITION to still selling the Q10.

    I am not clear on why you think a broader device selection is a bad thing for BlackBerry... but maybe that doesn't really matter, you've made your opinion clear on why you don't like the Trackpad (or put differently, why it is unnecessary on BB10 and / or is "obsolete"), so I guess after a year of the Q20 being on the market and you're still enjoying your Z10, I guess proof that Belted and Beltless devices can coexist will be given. Or not.
    02-25-14 12:16 PM
  11. BB_Junky's Avatar
    "it's not my fault you have small hands"
    You get to say "wow its huge" a lot more....


    Sent flawlessly from my Z30!
    02-25-14 12:22 PM
  12. coldRooster's Avatar
    It's statements like that that are dismissive of the needs of others that make one argumentative, I think. You've said in other posts that it's not skin off your back if they release a device with the Belt, but time and time again people say how the touchscreen is "inferior" to the Trackpad for certain things then you respond with "it's not my fault you have small hands". Come on, now.

    ...and after participating in this topic from the outset... I think that you're still against the notion of BlackBerry releasing the Q20 IN ADDITION to still selling the Q10.

    I am not clear on why you think a broader device selection is a bad thing for BlackBerry... but maybe that doesn't really matter, you've made your opinion clear on why you don't like the Trackpad (or put differently, why it is unnecessary on BB10 and / or is "obsolete"), so I guess after a year of the Q20 being on the market and you're still enjoying your Z10, I guess proof that Belted and Beltless devices can coexist will be given. Or not.
    I wasn't the one scoffing at one handed use. So I replied. And it's a waste of money to include those devices. It could have been spent on other things.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    02-25-14 12:27 PM
  13. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Does anyone else think the belt and track pad will be updated and not exactly what we all expect? It may very well be but seeing as it is BB10 and new devices blackberry really should be updating the design and look/feel of the belt and track pad.
    I'm not sure if that's right: you will note that over the years on BBOS devices the design of the BELT did change a bit... but if what Mr. Chen is doing is trying to bring back something missing from the BBOS devices (in the minds of customers), then too-radical a change defeats the purpose.

    This is not meant to appeal to Android or iOS users: the idea that Android and iOS users are going to abandon their familiarity / investment in those platforms and switch to BlackBerry 10 is a ship that sailed pretty much on February 10th, 2013 (although it wasn't public knowledge until months later) so I, personally, hold out NO hope that there is ANYTHING that BlackBerry can do to win back satisfied Android and iOS users (not until BlackBerry Ltd. is VERY stable and secure financially).

    What BlackBerry CAN do is win over current BBOS users AND BBOS users on other platforms that are only there because none of the current BB10 devices overcame the compromises they'd have to make to switch: meaning, that for some, Android and iOS were a "better" choice when they switched, but they always kept the door open to returning to BB if the right combination of OS features and hardware came to being, and for some, the Q20 will be that.

    As we saw with the leaked windmere or whatever it's called. It has 3 rows of keyboard instead of the 4 we are used too. So thats probably how they would make up for the space without adding more space. I really hope they integrate the track pad into the space bar as has been leaked on the "dev d - windmere" device. And the put the function keys on the side of the spacebar/trackpad as touchscreen buttons or capacitive buttons. (not actual physical buttons).
    That radical a change to the Q keyboard would be a huge mistake in my opinion... yes, let it be a prototype for early adoptors to kick around but that is a niche device in a niche market. Niche2. I'm not saying it shouldn't be released, but let's set our expectations realistically.

    That would be the best way into the future. The q20 concepts I have seen they just basically made the z30 design with a keyboard and plopped in the old bar from years back. BlackBerry cannot use the same styles as they did years ago. Must update it.
    I think they need to use the same style for now, then move it forward... the point of the Belt is to tell BBOS holdouts that "we are trying to cater to you, to what you know and are familiar with" which is undermined by making significant changes to it.

    That said, it HAS to work well WITHIN BB10 and BB10 mustn't undergo changes to accommodate the BELT. If they do that, they've messed up.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 02-25-14 at 01:03 PM.
    mphillips828 likes this.
    02-25-14 12:30 PM
  14. kbz1960's Avatar
    Did you miss the BIS reference in my post you responded to?


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    No I didn't. BB10 doesn't have BIS. BB10 deleted your emails not BIS or lack of.
    02-25-14 12:47 PM
  15. iamagod's Avatar
    [QUOTE=coldRooster;10051974]

    Like I and others have stated. If you have big hands, it's possible. If you're incapable if doing it one handed, its not my problem you have tiny hands. Also, double tap will zoom too.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    Lmao, "if you have big hands its possible, if you have tiny hands its not my problem". God, you're so idiotic. How many ogres are walking among us? Lets design a phone for the big-hand population and leave 95% of the population with normal or small hands out of the design process.

    I'm 5'10" and my hands are bigger than MOST people. Just because an action is possible doesnt mean its a pleasure to do. Some people prefer to do everything in the OS by moving their thumb an inch, not chasing every corner of their screen tapping and swiping. With a trackpad you can do anything one handed, without resorting to finger acrobatics.

    Asking someone to pinch to zoom with one hand is a farce. Double tapping doesnt give u the flexibilty to zoom at different levels. Its in at one level, then back out.

    You call me a dinosaur, well you are a child. Thorsten tried to appease the children and nerds with apps/gaming device with a big touch screen, and BB10 devices got outsold by BBOS devices 7 to 1 . How are u so blind to the facts? If people want inefficient touchscreen slabs they go with iphone or android. BlackBerry was built on productivity and communication.

    Now please tell me why you still use a mouse on your computer? Why are u living in the past? The mouse was created over 30 yrs ago, bro. Or have you moved on and use a touchscreen laptop?

    Posted via CB10
    02-25-14 12:50 PM
  16. RyanGermann's Avatar
    You can run a business using two different marketing philosophies. One is to fimd out what your customer wants and then give it to them. Thats what your advocating. Many businesses run this way. But this aproach requires you build a better mousetrap, you to understand your customer, and to steal new customers from other brands. Clearly they have not.

    The other approach is to build something really cool and then go out and convince the market they need it. Apple uses this philosophy. They spend 0 on market research. They can do this cuz they actually build really cool things.
    That's an oversimplification of how to run a successful business.

    You innovate on top of giving consumers what they want. BlackBerry has innovated with BB10 and will continue to do so, and they thought "full touchscreen without the belt" was giving hundreds of millions of Android and iOS users what they wanted and they disregarded that 10s of millions of BBOS users want the Belt, and they got it really really wrong, not appealing to Android or iOS users in sufficient numbers and ALSO not appealing to BBOS users in sufficient numbers. In retrospect, if they'd focused more on the appeal to entice BBOS customers to upgrade, they'd have sold a lot more devices. The resulting "BB10" in that parallel universe may have been different in ways YOU wouldn't like but having more BB10 users would show up on their bottom line as a larger user base and more revenues. They wasted a year going after Android / iOS users, and now they're going to try to get it right with their BBOS users, but ALSO innovating in the process.

    The problem for BB is they went from giving their customers what they wanted (a la bb7, trackpads and belts) and when that ran its course switched to a build something cool philosophy with the Z10. Frankly, I think they did a pretty good job. Now they have to sell it. A year is not long enough to decide its failed. And we all know BB's marketing sucked in the past.

    Going back to their base is foolish in the long term. Why? Because BB's future is selling phones (and Enterprise services) to iOS, Android, and WP cistomers.
    I agree that a year isn't a long enough time... but BlackBerry doesn't have that much time to get profitable or they risk total irrelevance (and lots of critics say they're already irrelevant, I disagree and say "eff the critics".)

    You aren't a bit puzzled by even at a price tag of $4 billion no one wanted to buy BlackBerry, even Google or Microsoft who have cash actually getting moldy in vaults?

    And, no, BlackBerry's future is not in displacing iOS and Android and WP handhelds, not in the short term: it would be great if in 5 years the smartphone market was evenly divided between these 4 or even more platforms, with hundreds of millions of users on each platform, but "satisfied" Android or iOS users have no incentive to switch to BB10... most Android or iOS users that aren't happy don't even know WHY they're not happy and maybe if you krazy glue a BB10 device into their hands EVENTUALLY they'll like BB10, but that's the problem: holding their attention long enough for them to "invest" the effort to learn BB10.

    And all they're hearing is "BlackBerry is bankrupt" all over the place, which are lies and distortions and just outright stupid, possibly evil, rumours. What would make an Android or iOS user give BB10 a chance? IRREFUTABLE PROOF that there is a strong user base and BB Ltd. is profitable. Hopefully the Belt will encourage more people to make that investment and they'll like what they find... they may EVENTUALLY ditch the Belt and switch to a Z30... think of it like this:

    Android / iOS -----> Full touchscreen BlackBerry 10 device: FAIL

    Android / iOS ------> Belted BlackBerry 10 device -------> Full Touchscreen BlackBerry 10 device: ?????

    but the REAL short term is this:

    BBOS -------> Full Touchscreen BB10 device: not happening or FAIL

    BBOS -------> Belted BB10 device: Hopefully more will happen and fewer "rejections".

    And those customers have moved on to gesture based OS's.
    Hogwash. Many that left left grudgingly and may be enticed back.

    Selling new BB phones with trackpads and belts will only appeal to their current base.
    Agreed. I don't believe much can be done to bring back Android and iOS users that are happy with Android and iOS, and since both are pretty good OSes, well, it's beyond me to imagine a realistic scenario where significant numbers of Android or iOS users will put in the hard work to like and switch to BB10, but if you have any, feel free to describe them here and warm an old queen's heart.

    And if they can only sell to their current base, their dead. Thats why emerging markets are so important.
    Maybe if you consider things in different terms: short term and long term: maybe the Belted devices are just a short term strategy and when demand is reduced significantly, the per-unit price will go way up, but BB may still make them available... like Rolls Royces: demand is very low, build quality is excellent, price is SKY HIGH but there's still a market for them.

    Believe it or not, i like the trackpad and belt but Im a past BB user and not who BB needs. They need to convince the iphone and Galaxy user to switch. I really dont think a souped up Bold is gonna do it.
    I didn't believe it 'til you said it there, but I'll take that at face value. Again, I hate to break it to you, but I if you stop and think a minute about what in the world will bring iOS and Android users to BB10 in 'significant' numbers, you may realize, sadly, like me, that nothing will work in the SHORT term, and only when BB10 has picked up 10s of millions of users from anywhere (like the BBOS user base) and BB10 has the respect it deserves and BlackBerry LTD. is no longer considered to be on the verge of bankruptcy (which is their SINGLE BIGGEST OBSTACLE preventing sales at the moment, because BB10 / Z30 is the best OS / Phone I've ever owned) is there hope of catching the eye of hundreds of millions of users who are otherwise only slightly to moderately unhappy on other platforms.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 02-25-14 at 01:14 PM.
    02-25-14 12:53 PM
  17. Qwerty guy's Avatar
    What's the problem with having a foxcon built enterprise device AND a blackberry built high end Qwerty device, which I believe Chen said they were also working on?

    We don't even know if consumers will be able to buy the Q20, at least through carriers anyway. Plus if you're a business you'd want a device that is geared towards ease of use for enterprise related activity rather than one that's great for entertainment purposes.

    Posted via CB10
    02-25-14 12:59 PM
  18. coldRooster's Avatar
    [QUOTE=iamagod;10052148]

    Lmao, "if you have big hands its possible, if you have tiny hands its not my problem". God, you're so idiotic. How many ogres are walking among us? Lets design a phone for the big-hand population and leave 95% of the population with normal or small hands out of the design process.

    I'm 5'10" and my hands are bigger than MOST people. Just because an action is possible doesnt mean its a pleasure to do. Some people prefer to do everything in the OS by moving their thumb an inch, not chasing every corner of their screen tapping and swiping. With a trackpad you can do anything one handed, without resorting to finger acrobatics.

    Asking someone to pinch to zoom with one hand is a farce. Double tapping doesnt give u the flexibilty to zoom at different levels. Its in at one level, then back out.

    You call me a dinosaur, well you are a child. Thorsten tried to appease the children and nerds with apps/gaming device with a big touch screen, and BB10 devices got outsold by BBOS devices 7 to 1 . How are u so blind to the facts? If people want inefficient touchscreen slabs they go with iphone or android. BlackBerry was built on productivity and communication.

    Now please tell me why you still use a mouse on your computer? Why are u living in the past? The mouse was created over 30 yrs ago, bro. Or have you moved on and use a touchscreen laptop?

    Posted via CB10
    First of all, you don't need to be a *****. Second of all, if you like your Trackpad there are phones with them on there.

    My BB10 phone is probably more efficient than any of my other phones. And yes actually. I use a surface tablet.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    02-25-14 01:00 PM
  19. freedomx20a's Avatar
    The belts a good thing. Q10 screen is 3.1? And is nice size screen. I live with it FINE!

    Q20 has 3.5 inch + belt that's a win win for legaacy users. The belt probably will boost sales.


    I like the business model. Kill the Q5 and have just. Q10 - Q20

    Next Q30-Q40. For the next phones

    30 will be like the 10 and 40 will be the new 20.

    Choice is beautiful

    ? BlackBerry Q10 ?
    RyanGermann likes this.
    02-25-14 01:03 PM
  20. black.rhino's Avatar
    They are giving up on their user paradigm

    Posted via CB10
    kbz1960 likes this.
    02-25-14 01:04 PM
  21. iamagod's Avatar
    [QUOTE=coldRooster;10052184]

    First of all, you don't need to be a *****. Second of all, if you like your Trackpad there are phones with them on there.

    My BB10 phone is probably more efficient than any of my other phones. And yes actually. I use a surface tablet.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    I don't want to come off as douchey, but it irks me that people are so anti-trackpad when they're are clearly people who still want them. And yes there are devices with them right now, but they're all old, why can't we have the joys of the updated QNX kernel and specs WITH a trackpad? They arent mutually exclusive.

    Also, BlackBerry will still make all touch phones without a belt for users like you, theres no reason that they should stop that. But that also means theres no reason for people like you to keep hating on the idea of one BB10 device with a trackpad. Different strokes for different folks

    Posted via CB10
    02-25-14 01:18 PM
  22. lnichols's Avatar
    [QUOTE=iamagod;10052256]

    I don't want to come off as douchey, but it irks me that people are so anti-trackpad when they're are clearly people who still want them. And yes there are devices with them right now, but they're all old, why can't we have the joys of the updated QNX kernel and specs WITH a trackpad? They arent mutually exclusive.

    Also, BlackBerry will still make all touch phones without a belt for users like you, theres no reason that they should stop that. But that also means theres no reason for people like you to keep hating on the idea of one BB10 device with a trackpad. Different strokes for different folks

    Posted via CB10
    As long as there are devices without it then I am fine. Trackpads can malfunction and make the device useless in outdoor sunlight. I have seen it occur in multiple devices. I don't want to add that unreliability factor to a device and OS that doesn't need a trackpad to operate effectively or efficiently. As long as I can have a Z series without it, then you guys can have your cluttered up Q series however you want.

    Posted via CB10
    02-25-14 01:31 PM
  23. chaddt's Avatar
    It is really pretty simple, if you don't want the buttons/trackpad don't buy it.

    The same way that people who want them haven't bought the OS10 phones because of the lack of buttons/trackpad. There are a lot of people who either haven't moved to OS10, moved away from BlackBerry all together or delayed moving from older BlackBerry devices because of it.

    Posted via CB10
    02-25-14 01:35 PM
  24. kbz1960's Avatar
    I bet this phone only sells marginally better than any other BB10 phone. Is that enough to keep them afloat?
    02-25-14 01:40 PM
  25. Morty2264's Avatar
    Gestures/touch and a pure keyboard makes the Q10 a gorgeous and an all-in-one device. Bringing back the "belt" would just make the gestures a little useless or cumbersome; if you put the two together. If you miss the belt, there is the 9900/30. I don't understand why people are so, so into this. Of course, I don't understand it because I don't miss it (I had a 9780); but I just think, in my own opinion, that it's not a wise maneuver to put out a phone like this. People who don't understand BlackBerry will look at it and say, "oh, so it's the same phone from three years ago" and not even give it a chance (yes, a larger screen, keyboard, and brand-new OS is involved, but due to poor marketing those who are unfamiliar with BlackBerry won't know those upgrades).

    I guess I'm just tired of hearing about this. But again, it's MY opinion. And yes, I chose to read this thread, obviously, so it's my own affair. But still, I don't think this is going to be a good marketing technique for a company that is trying very hard to be able to compete with Android and iOS. Make a slider Q device, or hike up the app possibilities (yes, we can now sideload a ton of Android apps with the new OS upgrade, but still! Make the gap a little better!), or do something crazy-new to the next Z device, but this? No.

    Again, my own opinion, guys! If you don't like it, cool. But we're all allowed to have differing opinions. Yup, I don't agree with new belt devices, but I said my piece civilly.

    Posted via CB10
    02-25-14 01:41 PM
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