04-05-14 05:42 PM
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  1. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Belt and trackpad lovers are missing the point. Sure, pushing a buton is easy. By that logic we should have a button for everything.
    But BB made a choice, right or wrong, to adopt a gesture-based OS. With that they shifted the entire company strategy to design a good one. Watch the video of the unveiling of the Z10. From CEO down, everyone hailed the new OS as a leap forward.

    Now, a year later with things not going well, BB reverts back to its roots circa 2004? Really? So we are supposed to forget all of that gesture talk from last year?

    It boils down to BB wanting to give its customers what they want (a very short sided view) or give them what they need.

    Trackpads and function keys = 250,000 really happy BB fanatics and a DEAD Blackberry.
    I think that number is more like 20,000,000 really happy BB fanatics and a REALLY HAPPY set of BlackBerry Shareholders.

    (your arguments are specious w.r.t. market demand and listening to consumers: finding out what consumers want so companies can give them what they want is a multi-billion dollar industry, and saying that a vocal majority of consumers are "wrong" is how you run a business "on principle" into the ground, by being too smart or too arrogant for your customer base.
    02-25-14 08:36 AM
  2. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Wouldn't the menus keys ruin the whole BlackBerry Flow experience?

    I do not like it at all [belt], if the next high end qwerty has the belt, I'll stick to the Q10, over anything else.
    This topic is full of examples of how it could be implemented in a way that doesn't ruin the BlackBerry Flow experience at all: the Belt would not be on all devices, so even when upgrading to a later version of the OS, your user experience on a current BB10 device wouldn't change.
    02-25-14 08:37 AM
  3. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I don't want to oversimplify here, but if BB10 reintegrated BIS into the OS and had BBOS feature parity via settings and shortcuts, would that satisfy you? You're starting to sound a bit spiteful, not just dissatisfied with the missing functionality from BB10.



    BB10 is "another platform" but its the platform that makes BB Ltd. money, while the others do not. The fact that BB10 was so different from BBOS is what has made it "another platform" so calling it QN10 would have been a more accurate but less "marketing-y" name for BB10. Nothing says "this is a totally different and unfamiliar platform" like a) Thor saying "not a single line of code" and b) having to run BES10 and BES5 in parallel to support both BB10 and BBOS devices. Just add that to the list of strategic errors "overcome" on Chen's watch (the announcement of BES12) although I acknowledge BES12 development started long before 3 months ago.
    If BB10 had a BIS option if still be using my Q10 right now.

    Second part is completely wrong, BB10 hasn't made BB any money, it cost them billions.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-25-14 08:39 AM
  4. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    Thanks for this debate

    As of date, here's my perception.
    First I was a physical keyboard guy and "typing on glass" was almost an insult to my intelligence.
    Then I had a ... devAlpha and thought this was "pretty decent"
    Then came my Z10 and I went addicted in 2 weeks; peeking like h3|l and in love with the multi-language
    Then came my Q10 and I thought "well, little renegate, time to come back to the clicks" ... never happened, mostly because of the ALT (and I must confess I never really liked the form factor ... 9900 was such a beauty ...)
    Then came my Z30 and ... I'm nowhere looking back.

    Now a Q20 with the belt back ?
    I'll have it. I'll try it. And THEN, I will be able to say yeah or nay ... because I believe the belt will not be alone as a novelty; maybe something like "gesture over physical" (speculation) ...
    At the end of the day, 1 week is enough to tell ... but until I can admire it ...
    02-25-14 08:41 AM
  5. Raddin's Avatar
    I'm willing to bet that the majority of belt hate around here was caused by the CrackBerry effect.

    BlackBerry legacy devices had that row of buttons and it was awesome in every way imaginable.

    BlackBerry 10 devices didn't have that row of buttons, so they immediately became stupid, pointless, a waste of space and so on.

    Seems like a lot of BlackBerry's remaining fans are of the "defend anything they do or don't do" mindset. So I wont at all surprised when I start seeing the same belt haters start loving those buttons again. BB10 has it now, so time for the flip flopping to begin.

    The confusion some people must feel. First their loyalty tells them that they must have those buttons to be efficient, then they realized that they don't need the trackpad after all and now, they have to go back to loving it like it it was always the greatest thing ever.
    Bbnivende likes this.
    02-25-14 08:42 AM
  6. RyanGermann's Avatar
    "Give them what they need": they don't need gestures. They have their place, but "gesture-based UI" is an SF movie fad.
    I agree with what you're saying in most of your posts, but this statement is either an oversimplification or just outright wrong: a device like the Q20 that supports both gestures AND has the Belt covers all the bases... pinch to zoom is a GREAT gesture ui... swipe or touch and hold and move your finger around the screen to move around the page... BUT THOSE GESTURES ARE TERRIBLE FOR PRECISE SELECTION, or clicking on links that are big enough to read but too small for your fingertips to touch.

    So gestures and the Belt both have their place ON THE SAME DEVICE, IN THE SAME OS!

    Once the anti-Belt whiners get their hands on a device for a few minutes, they'll see the light... some may choose to only perform actions that are optimally performed with gestures to prove to themselves that the Belt isn't adequate, but if they want to give Belted devices a fair try, they'd do some activities for which the Belt is a huge asset. I don't expect all people to want their BB10 "world view" undermined but the reality is that there is a place for Belted devices to be marketed along side full touchscreen devices... my question is: what happens to the Q5 and Q10 form factor (beltless full qwerty) next to the Q20, and will there ever be a Belted qwerty portrait slider a-la Torch 9810... the bigger the screen and keyboard the better... and price is no object.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 02-25-14 at 12:33 PM.
    02-25-14 08:44 AM
  7. kbz1960's Avatar
    If BB10 had a BIS option if still be using my Q10 right now.

    Second part is completely wrong, BB10 hasn't made BB any money, it cost them billions.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    Have they fixed the email bug that caused you to quit using both your Z and Q?
    02-25-14 08:48 AM
  8. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Have they fixed the email bug that caused you to quit using both your Z and Q?
    The smtp email bug had been fixed, although it did affect my Q10 briefly too, had to delete my email accounts and add them again.

    The email deletion bug hasn't even been acknowledged by BB, some blame the users either pulling the battery or hitting delete prior by accident, but it doesn't explain why deleted emails don't move to deleted folder when that happens.




    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-25-14 08:54 AM
  9. RyanGermann's Avatar
    The announcement of the Q20 (like the Q10 but having the Belt) was surprisingly rapid announcement after Chen said "we're bringing back the Belt" just days ago.

    So, to everyone who is worried that having the "belt" will "take up screen real estate:

    The screen on the Q20 is LARGER than the Q10. The device is longer than the Q10.

    Does that change your opinion of having the Belt on a device?
    Legal Eagle and joe_23 like this.
    02-25-14 08:57 AM
  10. RyanGermann's Avatar
    At the end of the day, 1 week is enough to tell ... but until I can admire it ...
    I love my Z30 and chose the Torch 9810 over the Bold 9900 (I owned both for months) so I know what I "like" as far as Q-qwerty over Torch-like slider goes... but I'd love to get my hands on a Q20 for a week or so to give it a good shakedown, but I'm sure the full screen on the Z30 would be my preference of the the Q20.

    I'd actually consider carrying both if it meant that the Q20 would just be a "terminal" for my Z30: I want all my key data on one device, but having a "dumb terminal" with a full qwerty and Belt would be... compelling... but if I had a portrait slider, it would be perfect.
    02-25-14 09:02 AM
  11. kbz1960's Avatar
    The smtp email bug had been fixed, although it did affect my Q10 briefly too, had to delete my email accounts and add them again.

    The email deletion bug hasn't even been acknowledged by BB, some blame the users either pulling the battery or hitting delete prior by accident, but it doesn't explain why deleted emails don't move to deleted folder when that happens.




    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    So you can forgive losing all your emails being deleted forever everywhere for a belt? Since they haven't even acknowledged it happened to some users aren't you afraid it will happen again?
    02-25-14 09:05 AM
  12. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Second part is completely wrong, BB10 hasn't made BB any money, it cost them billions.
    I wasn't clear: I mean "if BBOS users migrate (not upgrade) to BB10, BB Ltd. sees revenue. If BBOS users migrate to Android or iOS, BlackBerry does not see revenue".

    If BBOS is making BB money now, it's just semantics: because the investments have been made years ago... but since there's no way to spin it off as a stand-alone profitable company, it's not sustainable, so NOTHING is effectively "making BB money" right now.

    [EDIT and also, "making money" doesn't = "profitable" so that misinterpretation is on you, BD :-) ]
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 02-25-14 at 12:35 PM.
    02-25-14 09:05 AM
  13. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    So you can forgive losing all your emails being deleted forever everywhere for a belt? Since they haven't even acknowledged it happened to some users aren't you afraid it will happen again?
    Did you miss the BIS reference in my post you responded to?


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-25-14 09:07 AM
  14. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Look at the facts. Some have moved on but many remain. To date have only been 5-6 million BB10 devices shipped, in one year. Do you honestly think BB can survive on that?
    I will break this down a bit for "clarity".

    Can a company making whatever survive if they ship 5 or 6 million of whatevertheymake a year?

    Absolutely.

    That company can't survive if they overproduce and the market value of the product is not significantly higher than the production cost.

    BlackBerry was managed baaaadly to get them to this state: it's not a direct reflection of the quality of the products or whether or not BB10 as an OS platform has a critical mass of users to be sustainable.

    If you're going to talk about number of devices shipped relative to profitability, you have to factor in supply chain and inventory controls, both of which BlackBerry did very very poorly. If they had produced half the number of devices they would POSSIBLY have not been able to meet demand... their gamble was to OVERPRODUCE and have to write down the inventory. They guessed wrong on so many things, and one of them was the 'guess' that the majority of BBOS fans and users would embrace BB10 and easily adapt to a full-gestures UX and now they're doing the sensible thing and doing the mea culpa and producing the Q20. I just hope they don't OVERproduce them.
    02-25-14 09:14 AM
  15. RyanGermann's Avatar
    The fact that they're bringing back the trackpad + belt shows they don't want to innovate! This is a backwards A** step by BlackBerry and I'm extremely disappointed!
    That's just wrong. They're innovating at the same time as honouring what they've done in the past. If you don't think BB10 is innovative, and that by adding the Belt that somehow "stifles innovation", I can understand why you would be upset, but rest assured, you're completely totally wrong, so you should feel better.

    CLEARLY people care more about screen size these days than how they navigate. Look at the touchscreen navigation of Android and iPhone in comparison to BB10 devices (touch or qwerty). SO much easier on a BB10, YET they decide to bring the belt back.
    Because for some key tasks on a mobile device, a touchscreen is demonstrably less efficient that the Trackpad / Belt. Like something as simple as hang up a phone call.

    This is definitely a step backwards in my opinion and for me, the device is DOA if it keeps the 1:1 ratio and is below 4inches. I currently have the Q10 and was looking forward to buying the "Q20/30" however not anymore! I guess Ill go for an all touch.
    What did you expect the next device in the Q series would be? A full slab without a keyboard? Or just a Q10 with a more powerful processor?

    The Q20 will be have a more powerful processor probably and a larger screen and it will ALSO have the Belt. If you're waiting for a Q19 with all the features of the Q20 but without the Belt, sadly, I think you'll be waiting a while, and that the Q10 is going to fill that place in their product portfolio for the time being.
    02-25-14 09:35 AM
  16. akabbani's Avatar
    That's just wrong. They're innovating at the same time as honouring what they've done in the past. If you don't think BB10 is innovative, and that by adding the Belt that somehow "stifles innovation", I can understand why you would be upset, but rest assured, you're completely totally wrong, so you should feel better.



    Because for some key tasks on a mobile device, a touchscreen is demonstrably less efficient that the Trackpad / Belt. Like something as simple as hang up a phone call.



    What did you expect the next device in the Q series would be? A full slab without a keyboard? Or just a Q10 with a more powerful processor?

    The Q20 will be have a more powerful processor probably and a larger screen and it will ALSO have the Belt. If you're waiting for a Q19 with all the features of the Q20 but without the Belt, sadly, I think you'll be waiting a while, and that the Q10 is going to fill that place in their product portfolio for the time being.
    Dude, this is all I want.
    Why the Trackpad (Belt) hate?-1392936053125_831013.jpeg

    From the Q10 until they create a friggin rectangular 4" without the trackpad!
    02-25-14 09:44 AM
  17. jefbeard911's Avatar

    (your arguments are specious w.r.t. market demand and listening to consumers: finding out what consumers want so companies can give them what they want is a multi-billion dollar industry, and saying that a vocal majority of consumers are "wrong" is how you run a business "on principle" into the ground, by being too smart or too arrogant for your customer base.
    You can run a business using two different marketing philosophies. One is to fimd out what your customer wants and then give it to them. Thats what your advocating. Many businesses run this way. But this aproach requires you build a better mousetrap, you to understand your customer, and to steal new customers from other brands. Clearly they have not.

    The other approach is to build something really cool and then go out and convince the market they need it. Apple uses this philosophy. They spend 0 on market research. They can do this cuz they actually build really cool things.

    The problem for BB is they went from giving their customers what they wanted (a la bb7, trackpads and belts) and when that ran its course switched to a build something cool philosophy with the Z10. Frankly, I think they did a pretty good job. Now they have to sell it. A year is not long enough to decide its failed. And we all know BB's marketing sucked in the past.

    Going back to their base is foolish in the long term. Why? Because BB's future is selling phones (and Enterprise services) to iOS, Android, and WP cistomers. And those customers have moved on to gesture based OS's. Selling new BB phones with trackpads and belts will only appeal to their current base. And if they can only sell to their current base, their dead. Thats why emerging markets are so important.

    Believe it or not, i like the trackpad and belt but Im a past BB user and not who BB needs. They need to convince the iphone and Galaxy user to switch. I really dont think a souped up Bold is gonna do it.
    Last edited by jefbeard911; 02-25-14 at 10:15 AM.
    02-25-14 10:03 AM
  18. RyanGermann's Avatar
    To the participants in this topic: I wanted to (personally) stay very much on the "high road" but a long time ago I realized that deep down I can be a real jerk so I apologize if what I think are "jokes" are actually quite inconsiderate, but I sincerely appreciate the enthusiasm that respondents have... clearly we all want BB to be successful but we all have different ideas about what success means and how BlackBerry should execute on what is, frankly, a lot of top-secret plans and strategies that we can only speculate about (which is all part of the fun.)

    The point I'd really REALLY like "anti-belt" types to take away from this topic is that you hopefully will find some assurances in this topic (again, speculative, but based on what I think are sound business- and technology-development principles) that should assuage concerns that the BB10 experience you love "must" change (for the worse) if a BB10 device is released (as announced today HOORAY!) that has the BELT buttons.

    There is no doubt in MY mind that the Belt can be a pure "enhancement" or "addition" to BB10, without impairing the UX BB10 users are familiar with, and I hope you may start to feel that way too.
    jefbeard911 and coldRooster like this.
    02-25-14 10:11 AM
  19. Eupathic Impulse's Avatar
    Believe it or not, i like the trackpad and belt but Im a past BB user and not who BB needs. They need to convince the iphone and Galaxy user to switch. I really dont think a souped up Bold is gonna do it.
    That requires the time to figure out what BB can offer that Apple and Samsung/Google don't currently have that people want. The first attempt didn't work; the company needs breathing space with existing customers to make the revenue to sustain itself through further attempts at expansion.

    Apple *does* care about consumers in its design process. It picked a niche of a certain sort of consumer (the one who really gets worked up about "emotional" design) and worked its way outward from there.
    jefbeard911 and xanadome like this.
    02-25-14 10:17 AM
  20. Eupathic Impulse's Avatar
    Google also made an analogous decision, by the way. It decided that *its* core base were carriers (who want control over their "experience"), hardware manufacturers (who don't want to create their own software ecosystem), people who buy on price, and tinkerers. Once it established itself in that market, it and its partners started working their way towards the design-obsessives.

    Windows Phone is for people who...?

    The sad part for BB is that it *also* has a niche from which it can work out from, but somehow hasn't figured out how not to squander it.
    02-25-14 10:20 AM
  21. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Samsung just brought the off screen buttons back, just making a point.


    Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
    02-25-14 10:23 AM
  22. jefbeard911's Avatar
    To the participants in this topic: I wanted to (personally) stay very much on the "high road" but a long time ago I realized that deep down I can be a real jerk so I apologize if what I think are "jokes" are actually quite inconsiderate, but I sincerely appreciate the enthusiasm that respondents have... clearly we all want BB to be successful but we all have different ideas about what success means and how BlackBerry should execute on what is, frankly, a lot of top-secret plans and strategies that we can only speculate about (which is all part of the fun.).
    No worries bro. Its all in good fun. I tend to adopt an extreme position just to fish out others and their ideas. At the end of the day (wow, I hate that phrase) its just a phone.

    There's room for both old and new as long as they do it right.
    02-25-14 10:24 AM
  23. jefbeard911's Avatar
    Windows Phone is for people who...?

    People that don't need buttons to push and who don't want to be freaking around all day to make their phone work..
    02-25-14 10:33 AM
  24. coldRooster's Avatar
    I don't agree with that. Perhaps you don't believe that there are still 10s of millions of BBOS users actively using BBOS devices. How many currently-in-use BBOS devices do you think there are, actively in use, people use them every day? I think it's still something like 50 million.



    Again you must think that for BlackBerry to make a device like the Q20 that the current BB10 experience must somehow diminish or be negatively impacted. If you haven't been convinced that the impact on "you" will be negligible or actually positive, then nothing anyone can say will convince you, and for the record, your counter-points haven't convinced me that you are right.



    Well, we agree on that at least.
    I think of that 50 million the majority use them purely for business and already have another personal device.

    I don't know that it will be impacted badly but instead of coming out with more flagship phones BlackBerry had to cater to a crowd that I don't think they should have. And Ryan, I don't think anyone will convince you. You're slamming the belt down everyone's throat like a religious fanatic. And that is completely in your right to do so and I applaud you for upholding your beliefs. I don't care either way. I just think BlackBerry should not have done what they did and I stated why. That's the end for me.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    02-25-14 10:44 AM
  25. xanadome's Avatar
    I think of that 50 million the majority use them purely for business and already have another personal device.
    This the market Chen is going after, and the reason for bringing the belt back.
    02-25-14 11:08 AM
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