04-05-14 05:42 PM
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  1. RyanGermann's Avatar
    EDIT: The announcement of the Q20 (like the Q10 but having the Belt) was surprisingly rapid announcement after Chen said "we're bringing back the Belt" just days ago.

    So, to everyone who is worried that having the "belt" will "take up screen real estate:

    The screen on the Q20 is LARGER than the Q10.

    Does that change your opinion of having the Belt on a device?


    Praise Chen and Hallelujah.

    http://forums.crackberry.com/general...g-back-908892/

    On that thread above, I'm disappointed to see CrackBerry users posting their dismay at the possibility of the return of the Belt to some devices... and yet, I haven't seen anyone explain WHY bringing back the Belt is a bad thing.

    Are there any Belt-phobes out there willing to put their Anti-Belt bias up to scrutiny? To back up their opposition to bringing back the Belt with ANY kind of facts or opinions as to why?

    I think it's a good idea because the Belt provides one-button access to key functionality, and the Trackpad allows for precision editing of long-form documents that no full-touchscreen device can match, and that's important to me. That said, what I want is a full portrait slider very much like the Torch 9810 but with a larger screen, running BB10. I want to "have" my cake and eat it too (save my delicious cake as a treat for later on, but I also want to eat it now) which means I want to be able to compose long form documents (oh, guess what, RyanGermann likes writing LONG FORM DOCUMENTS! Who knew!?) but also be able to enjoy what a full-touch-slab device offers.

    99% of Anti-Belt bias comes down to "Trackpad is old, touchscreen is new, old is bad, new is good"... In some ways, I see that as BB fans putting what they think are BB's best interests forward, hoping that the market perception of BlackBerry would improve.

    Personally, I think that market perception will improve when there are a LOT, I mean LOT (is there a kind of super ultra upper case font?) more BB10 users so that all those app developers will actually do native apps, and when BlackBerry starts posting really positive financial results, whether or not the device is coal-powered (STEAMPUNK BLACKBERRY YEAH!) and ANYTHING that brings more real living breathing BB10 users into being is good (yes, even marking down devices so their price point makes for a powerful device at a very compelling price... growing market share by selling the devices at very low prices... but I don't want to discuss pricing strategy here, just the Belt, if possible.)

    I think we all want that here on CB... we don't want the BB company to be seen by others as old-fashioned, not up on new technologies, and "out of sync" with "what consumers want"... but on the other hand, I would be happy for BB to be a successful niche product company, and I'd proudly dwell in that niche with all the other niche-dwellers.

    What we ALL must know by know and accept that what consumers DON'T want are full touchscreen slab devices that aren't made by Samsung or Apple. No amount of tweaking to the full-touch BB10 OS is going to make a real impact in the market. If anything, "staying the course" on a full-slab only OS is doomed to fail as the competitive platforms get closer and closer to BB10 in form and function.

    What consumers also DON'T want is a BB10 device with a full keyboard but WITHOUT the Belt. The Q10 was supposed to be successful. Certainly it has its fans, but it hasn't been a success. Q5 sales figures aren't at my fingertips, but I don't get any sense that while the Q10 didn't meet sales expectations, the Q5 sold like GANGBUSTERS, so we have to say "The Q Series didn't meet sales expectations".

    And, BlackBerry is pursuing a niche-market strategy to go after corporate / enterprise customers, so "what consumers want" is much less relevant to BlackBerry's success going forward, although BlackBerry would be foolish to disregard the fact that even "enterprise" customers want to watch their pornos on a nice screen.

    The non-Belt devices, though beloved by many, ARE FAILURES IN THE MARKETPLACE by just about any reasonable standard of measure... so with all due respect, any claims that bringing back the Belt will somehow "hinder BB success" is kind of, well, pointless, isn't it? But there actually may be reasons WHY this would be the case, which is why I'm asking for those who think the Belt equals Bad to explain their opinion.

    Trackpad advocates have made their opinions known on CB and what do we get for our trouble? Not any rational counter-argument against the return of the Belt, just and and .

    So, what ya got? I suppose a mod might see this topic as shouting "Fire" in a crowded movie theatre, but really, I think it's good for BB and CB to have a hopefully rational discussion on this topic.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 02-25-14 at 08:56 AM.
    02-24-14 08:21 AM
  2. AnimalPak200's Avatar
    Non-Belt phones were not a market failure due to their lack of a belt. They were a failure due to the lack of the market recognizing that they were different from the 'belt-carrying' phones people left behind a few years before for more modern alternatives. Do you think adding a belt, and making them look just like those old things most abandoned (and obviously do not want any more) will help?
    02-24-14 08:26 AM
  3. JWWDUKE's Avatar
    For me, the belt takes up screen real estate that I don't want to give up.

    Also, for me, I do not miss the track pad or buttons. With BB10 I just simply don't need either one.

    Z10 10.2.1.1055
    02-24-14 08:33 AM
  4. gokulesh's Avatar
    ^^This^^.

    Trackpad = No.

    Posted via CB10
    KDB84 and ColdStoneGuards like this.
    02-24-14 08:36 AM
  5. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Do you think adding a belt, and making them look just like those old things most abandoned (and obviously do not want any more) will help?
    I absolutely do. There are 10s of millions of BB7 OS users that like their BB7 OS experience just fine and therefore put up with the compromises that staying on BB7 means (no apps, etc.) I also believe that lots would upgrade to a BB10 device if it was more like BB7 in certain ways.

    Your objection seems to be solely related to the fact that marketing hasn't got the word out on BB10 properly... that the BB10 devices exactly as they are would sell like gangbusters if only there was more consumer awareness. That's not an argument against the Belt, that's an argument for the current devices that already exist and for whatever reasons haven't been successful.

    I don't agree that the reason the BB10 devices haven't succeeded is because people think they're exactly like the BBOS devices that DO have a keyboard and Belt. I think anyone actually looking at a Z10 or Z30 would be able to tell immediately that it isn't like a 9900.

    Or do you think that consumers see a BB10 full slab and think it's still running BB7? If so, do you have an explanation as to why so many people who try the BB10 are frustrated with the pure gestures experience? I don't think it's as simple as telling people "it's different". I think part of the problem is that it's "too different" to what they expect from a BB device, and certainly different from iOS and Android with which they might be familiar.
    02-24-14 08:52 AM
  6. RyanGermann's Avatar
    For me, the belt takes up screen real estate that I don't want to give up.
    Ok, so you wouldn't buy a BB10 device with the Belt... but do you think that BlackBerry should not manufacture one at all?

    Also, for me, I do not miss the track pad or buttons. With BB10 I just simply don't need either one.
    Ok great, you have your Z10 and it works great. If BB put out two devices next year: a super powered Z20 that was exactly the same as the Z10 but had a much more powerful CPU and higher resolution screen and more memory, and they also put out a device like the Q10 but having the Belt on it (so this new device would be slightly longer to accommodate the Belt buttons) I expect you'd either stick with your Z10 or you'd maybe this new Z20.

    Do you think BlackBerry should not put out that "Q20" or whatever? And if not, why not (aside from you not being interested in it personally).
    02-24-14 08:56 AM
  7. redsaph's Avatar
    For me, I don't see the connection between the trackpad and what is called a "gesture-based OS".

    But I don't think people would tweak the OS just to accommodate devices with the belt.

    Posted via CB10 | Z10STL100-1/10.2.1.1925
    02-24-14 09:06 AM
  8. coldRooster's Avatar
    For me, the belt takes up screen real estate that I don't want to give up.

    Also, for me, I do not miss the track pad or buttons. With BB10 I just simply don't need either one.

    Z10 10.2.1.1055
    Which is what I told OP in another thread. Screen real estate and they are not needed.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    02-24-14 09:08 AM
  9. robsteve's Avatar
    It would be nice if they brought back some sort or trackpad. I am not sure if the other keys are needed. Perhaps some of the existing keys could be tasked to for use when not in use. Such as pressing Q to answer and P to hang up.

    Where I miss the trackpad, is when using the browser and you are served a desktop web page. On some of these pages links and buttons are hard to press accurately without a mouse. In addition, a lot of drop down menus don't work correctly with a touch screen. I haven't done it with the Q10, but sometimes there were web pages on the PlayBook, that were impossible to navigate through the menus without a mouse because of ill-behaved drop down menus. When used with a mouse, they stayed open and you could select from the drop down list.
    FF22 likes this.
    02-24-14 09:14 AM
  10. Blackberry_Boss's Avatar
    That's like tesla taking away that touch pad and replacing most of it with nobs because Toyota owners can't use it because it's not familiar. Then BMW (apple) puts full touch displays in there car and now all of a sudden it's the new thing. And now tesla owners want a full touch. Wasted man hours. Wasted money. Wasted innovation. Wasted effort. Let's all go back to using BBOS 7.5 it's a step up and 3 steps back.

    Posted via CB10
    02-24-14 09:18 AM
  11. redsaph's Avatar
    Where I miss the trackpad, is when using the browser and you are served a desktop web page. On some of these pages links and buttons are hard to press accurately without a mouse. In addition, a lot of drop down menus don't work correctly with a touch screen. I haven't done it with the Q10, but sometimes there were web pages on the PlayBook, that were impossible to navigate through the menus without a mouse because of ill-behaved drop down menus. When used with a mouse, they stayed open and you could select from the drop down list.
    1. Pinch-to-zoom on links and buttons to accurately click them?
    2. As far as I remember, triple-tapping on a drop down menu opened it perfectly on the PlayBook. So does my Z10.

    Posted via CB10 | Z10STL100-1/10.2.1.1925
    02-24-14 09:18 AM
  12. Blackberry_Boss's Avatar
    If they bring the track pad back basically you don't need a touch screen then.

    Posted via CB10
    silversmith75 likes this.
    02-24-14 09:19 AM
  13. NaijaBerry's Avatar
    I'm curious to know what the BlackBerry function key would bring up in BB10.....trackpad I guess would be helpful, but I dread having to deal with trackpad issues again, thought that was over for life! But physical send, end, back and function keys are pretty pointless with this fluid OS....
    silversmith75, retomex and redsaph like this.
    02-24-14 09:24 AM
  14. robsteve's Avatar
    1. Pinch-to-zoom on links and buttons to accurately click them?
    2. As far as I remember, triple-tapping on a drop down menu opened it perfectly on the PlayBook. So does my Z10.

    Posted via CB10 | Z10STL100-1/10.2.1.1925
    The pinch to zoom is slow and still the buttons can be close together. For example, on the CrackBerry forums or any similar forum software, the multi page thread links (1 2 3 4.. Last page) are too close together unless zoomed so they are very large. You still run into the problem on the BB10 that unless zoomed in, the drop down list is hard to accurately pick a particular link.

    Some sites are not coded correctly for the drop down menus to work even with the triple taps. On the BB10 phones it got fixed in one of the later OS versions. For the Playbook it was never fixed.
    rotorwrench and Upgrayedd111 like this.
    02-24-14 09:27 AM
  15. interrupteIO's Avatar
    I like the call and end buttons. Would be great if they made the belt optional. One model withit, one without. Then people could simply choose.

    Posted from Q10SQN100-1/10.2.1.1925
    02-24-14 09:30 AM
  16. coldRooster's Avatar
    [QUOTE=robsteve;10046742]The pinch to zoom is slow

    Pinch to zoom is as fast you can pinch to zoom. I don't understand. Maybe you should pinch faster.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    02-24-14 09:30 AM
  17. mphillips828's Avatar
    Simply put the belt shouldn't be hard wear. Should be a software feature. Bb10 is great without those physical buttons. They can make the buttons similar to android phones that use the buttons for home and back and stuff. I don't mind them doing this but don't make them physical hard buttons. Make them the (sorry not sure if this is what they are called) capacitive touch buttons...

    Posted via CB10
    02-24-14 09:30 AM
  18. RyanGermann's Avatar
    That's like tesla taking away that touch pad and replacing most of it with nobs because Toyota owners can't use it because it's not familiar.
    No, it's not. Not at all. No one is "taking anything away" from BB10 by adding the Belt.

    Some devices would have the Belt. Other devices would not. You would not buy a device with the Belt. Other people would.
    02-24-14 09:31 AM
  19. robsteve's Avatar
    [QUOTE=coldRooster;10046754]
    The pinch to zoom is slow

    Pinch to zoom is as fast you can pinch to zoom. I don't understand. Maybe you should pinch faster.

    Posted via my beautiful Z10
    Have you ever used a BlackBerry with a trackpad? It was much quicker and more accurate selecting links, especially on desktop type web pages.

    I would also challenge somebody to pinch to zoom and select a link one handed. The old BBOS phone did this without any problem.
    Karan Mohal, FF22, Nurees and 2 others like this.
    02-24-14 09:33 AM
  20. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Which is what I told OP in another thread. Screen real estate and they are not needed.
    ...and in the other thread I asked you why you think that adding the Belt would make the screen smaller... you're making assumptions about what adding the Belt would mean.

    If you could have a device with the Belt on but was 1 CM longer, would the 1 CM be the deal breaker? If the device is 1 CM longer or costs $30 more would that be the reason why you wouldn't buy it?

    No, You don't want the Belt, you like a full touch screen. So that's the model you would buy.

    I guess I'm not making the point of this topic very clear. This isn't a 'would you buy a device with a Belt' poll, I'm sincerely interested to know why people think BlackBerry should not produce a range of devices that include some devices that have the Belt, because for a lot of people, it goes beyond their personal choice, it's statements like "it would be a bad business decision for BlackBerry".
    02-24-14 09:34 AM
  21. Mike1117's Avatar
    Why do you need a trackpad when you can just touch anywhere you want on the screen? Why do you want dedicated buttons when virtual buttons do so much more and don't take up valuable real estate? Makes no sense to me.
    02-24-14 09:35 AM
  22. FOR RIM's Avatar
    i think they would look ugly on bb 10 devices
    02-24-14 09:36 AM
  23. redsaph's Avatar
    If they want the belt, give them a virtual belt like Android, and give us the option to disable it.

    This is frustrating.

    XD D: :| )

    Posted via CB10 | Z10STL100-1/10.2.1.1925
    JWWDUKE and anon8091350 like this.
    02-24-14 09:37 AM
  24. RyanGermann's Avatar
    If they bring the track pad back basically you don't need a touch screen then.
    That's a good point: you know how many people using Bold 9900s that hate the touchscreen and wish it could be disabled? Quite a few, not the majority, but if being able to disable the touchscreen on a device would increase sales, would it make sense for BlackBerry to add the option to disable the touchscreen?

    I would not disable the touchscreen on my device, but if it makes more people buy BB10 devices to offer the option to disable it, then yes, I think BlackBerry should include an option to disable the touchscreen on devices that have the Belt.
    02-24-14 09:37 AM
  25. Im Mo Green's Avatar
    For me, the belt takes up screen real estate that I don't want to give up.

    Also, for me, I do not miss the track pad or buttons. With BB10 I just simply don't need either one.



    Z10 10.2.1.1055
    Actually the "belt" is going to do the opposite, it will allow for larger qwerty display sizes (4+ inches). The "belt" will still allow for easy one hand operation. Don't rush to judgement until you see it implemented at the end of the year.
    allwi and acovey like this.
    02-24-14 09:37 AM
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