[kbz1960]

VIRTUAL BUTTONS ARE THE DEFINITION OF TAKING UP SCREEN REAL ESTATE!

Saying virtual buttons DON'T take us screen space is the misnomer of the day.

Can't a virtual button be invoked with a gesture and disappear again when done?

[nabil114]

Praise Chen and Hallelujah.

http://forums.crackberry.com/general...g-back-908892/

On that thread above, I'm disappointed to see CrackBerry users posting their dismay at the possibility of the return of the Belt to some devices... and yet, I haven't seen anyone explain WHY bringing back the Belt is a bad thing.

Are there any Belt-phobes out there willing to put their Anti-Belt bias up to scrutiny? To back up their opposition to bringing back the Belt with ANY kind of facts or opinions as to why?

I think it's a good idea because the Belt provides one-button access to key functionality, and the Trackpad allows for precision editing of long-form documents that no full-touchscreen device can match, and that's important to me. That said, what I want is a full portrait slider very much like the Torch 9810 but with a larger screen, running BB10. I want to "have" my cake and eat it too (save my delicious cake as a treat for later on, but I also want to eat it now) which means I want to be able to compose long form documents (oh, guess what, RyanGermann likes writing LONG FORM DOCUMENTS! Who knew!?) but also be able to enjoy what a full-touch-slab device offers.

99% of Anti-Belt bias comes down to "Trackpad is old, touchscreen is new, old is bad, new is good"... In some ways, I see that as BB fans putting what they think are BB's best interests forward, hoping that the market perception of BlackBerry would improve.

Personally, I think that market perception will improve when there are a LOT, I mean LOT (is there a kind of super ultra upper case font?) more BB10 users so that all those app developers will actually do native apps, and when BlackBerry starts posting really positive financial results, whether or not the device is coal-powered (STEAMPUNK BLACKBERRY YEAH!) and ANYTHING that brings more real living breathing BB10 users into being is good (yes, even marking down devices so their price point makes for a powerful device at a very compelling price... growing market share by selling the devices at very low prices... but I don't want to discuss pricing strategy here, just the Belt, if possible.)

I think we all want that here on CB... we don't want the BB company to be seen by others as old-fashioned, not up on new technologies, and "out of sync" with "what consumers want"... but on the other hand, I would be happy for BB to be a successful niche product company, and I'd proudly dwell in that niche with all the other niche-dwellers.

What we ALL must know by know and accept that what consumers DON'T want are full touchscreen slab devices that aren't made by Samsung or Apple. No amount of tweaking to the full-touch BB10 OS is going to make a real impact in the market. If anything, "staying the course" on a full-slab only OS is doomed to fail as the competitive platforms get closer and closer to BB10 in form and function.

What consumers also DON'T want is a BB10 device with a full keyboard but WITHOUT the Belt. The Q10 was supposed to be successful. Certainly it has its fans, but it hasn't been a success. Q5 sales figures aren't at my fingertips, but I don't get any sense that while the Q10 didn't meet sales expectations, the Q5 sold like GANGBUSTERS, so we have to say "The Q Series didn't meet sales expectations".

And, BlackBerry is pursuing a niche-market strategy to go after corporate / enterprise customers, so "what consumers want" is much less relevant to BlackBerry's success going forward, although BlackBerry would be foolish to disregard the fact that even "enterprise" customers want to watch their pornos on a nice screen.

The non-Belt devices, though beloved by many, ARE FAILURES IN THE MARKETPLACE by just about any reasonable standard of measure... so with all due respect, any claims that bringing back the Belt will somehow "hinder BB success" is kind of, well, pointless, isn't it? But there actually may be reasons WHY this would be the case, which is why I'm asking for those who think the Belt equals Bad to explain their opinion.

Trackpad advocates have made their opinions known on CB and what do we get for our trouble? Not any rational counter-argument against the return of the Belt, just and and .

So, what ya got? I suppose a mod might see this topic as shouting "Fire" in a crowded movie theatre, but really, I think it's good for BB and CB to have a hopefully rational discussion on this topic.

Some people do not know how to use the touch screen. (my dad has hard time clicking on icons)

I think touch gives more control than trackpad. I would admit maybe editing words may not be as good because you have to move the cursor which does not exist

[Tatwi]

The irrational hate and alarmist assumptions that adding physical buttons to SOME or even just ONE new qwerty will change BB10 OS on all devices is disappointing (and almost embarrassing).

I am a BlackBerry owner and Z10 daily user and do want a qwerty with a belt. I have learned that I prefer excellent communication tools over the larger screen. I really don't give a **** at all about "apps", social media, and whatnot.

I would be more than happy with a Bold 9900 chassis with BB10 OS, 2GB RAM, 1.4GHz dual core ARM CPU, and 32GB of storage. Preferably with a camera that doesn't suck. BlackBerry 10OS has a much better Web browser than BBOS7 and really that's the only noticeable upgrade for my usage that I have found with this Z10, apart from the speed due to the better CPU. For everything else, I actually really don't like the Z10 very much (especially BMM/SMS/Email).

The BB10 gestures are alright, but I am really quite shocked the flick up to close from the PlayBook is not on BB10. I find that where the BlackBerry button and app switch menu on OS4.5 to OS7 was 100% the first time I pressed the button, where as BB10 gestures can require several attempts to register, which is annoying. BB10 is not all cupcakes and sunshine...

Anyhow, I don't understand why so many Crackberry users feel the need to berate and belittle the things that others value, simply because they do not value them. I personally don't like touch screen devices and auto correct, but I don't spend my days imploring others to "move on" other more advanced technologies. Who am I to judge? And who are you?

What is most likely is that BlackBerry will continue to create Q10/Q5, Z10/Z30, and Bold/Curve style devices in tandem, because each hardware paradigm has value to BlackBerry users. I would not be surprised to see a modern day BlackBerry Pearl either, because innovation and functionality transcend the passage of time; 100 years later, cars still have rubber tires, because they work.

Magnificently composed using CB10 on my BB Z10!

[Beakman]

Trackpad, yea! It was the reason I went for the Z10 instead of the Q. No sense having a keyboard when you have to fumble around a smaller screen anyway. And the belt has a use too: Call +hub in/out (and customizable for which hub screen) + track pad + minimize + call end/close app. Maybe they sbould mix it up a little and have the trackpad off-center (Nah, forgot about handedness).
Someone make a mockup!

[Kevstra]

The notion that Q10 sales did not meet expectations because of the lack of a belt is silly. Sales have been in steady decline, even when the 9900 came out.

This sort of backwards-thinking-nostalgia for decade-old devices has got to go.

[acovey]

No hate for the Belt here, hoping for a 9810 style of phone with a big screen and physical keys and a BELT for my shakey old fingers. Z30 has been the best touch screen I have tried by for it still works better if I can place my fingers on a button and then push. Have tried the Q10 but my old eyes need a bigger screen.

[kbz1960]

The irrational hate and alarmist assumptions that adding physical buttons to SOME or even just ONE new qwerty will change BB10 OS on all devices is disappointing (and almost embarrassing).

I think it comes from BBRY themselves. They are so inconsistent and send so many different messages. We can continue with BBOS. We have to change to a new OS because BBOS is losing customers like crazy and has run its course. We got rid of buttons for a gesture based OS. We are bringing the buttons back. Full steam ahead with BB10 except months later they bring out a "New" legacy phone. We need new customers. We have to cater to our user base. We will leave the consumer market, no we aren't. We're working hard to get the top apps. We don't need apps. We need to make less phone models. Now they are going to make more models?

[ssbtech]

Go use the CrackBerry 10 app to compose a really REALLY long message. Any subject. At some point, pick up the second sentence in the third paragraph and make it a standalone-sentence in it's own paragraph between paragraphs 1 and 2. Use a stopwatch to keep track of how long it takes you. I bet it takes you more than 10-15 seconds.

I made a video comparing text selection on my Z10 to my 9800 a while back.

Here it is:



What I really find frustrating is the block of text moving up and down and the imprecision of placing the handles. Not to mention the side menu constantly appearing/disappearing.

On the 9800 at the end, highlighting and deleting the same block of text took a matter of seconds while using the shift key and the trackpad.

I'm sure if I had a couple of paragraphs that I wanted to move around, copy, paste, etc... I'd be driven mad on the Z10.

[SK122387]

There are of course two sides to this.

To some, it shows that BlackBerry has listened to what remaining customers it has left. It shows that BlackBerry is being smart and giving their diehards what they want.

To others, it shows regression, a step backwards, a dumbing-down of future BlackBerrys, because some people couldn't let go of the past.


I'm somewhere in the middle. I've been a BlackBerry user since 2007, and every one of my 15 or 16 BlackBerrys I've had except for my Q10s and Z10 have had that "belt" of buttons. If I hated it, I would not have gone so long using devices with it.

I am young. I can get used to a new OS that doesn't have buttons. But I know that not everyone is as young or as adaptable, and their money is just as good as mine.

I had been using a 9810 and 9900s before I got my Z10. I think moving from a Z10 to a Q10 helped me get over the lack of "belt." Had I gone from a 9900 to a Q10, I think the jump would have been harder to make, but I had the Z10 for three months before I got the Z10, so I was very used to the all touch OS.

Do I think the all touch BlackBerrys should have the "belt"? No. I think it would make the devices look antiquated, like the Storm 2 or Torch 9860/9650. Those were nice devices to look at, but we've moved on and most people who opt for the all touch screen phones probably don't want those buttons anyways.

But let's face it. The Q10, or any full qwerty device, isn't pushing the envelope when it comes to design. They're more about tradition and what people are used to. I think the Q10s are beautiful in black or white, but I know that that's because I love that keyboard. If the Q10 were bigger, I'd welcome the "belt" back. I DO miss the End Call button. I loved hanging up using that, sometimes with my thumb on the button before taking my BlackBerry away from my face. Now? I can't do that. Because of the proximity sensor, I have to move my Q10 away from my face before I end the call, and it's just not as satisfying to end a call by touching glass.

The trackpad is whatever. I've grown accustomed to not using it. And guess what? On my 9810 and 9900, if I didn't want to use the trackpad, I really didn't have to. I could do everything without using it, if I remember correctly. And really, what's the extra "belt" of buttons going to do to my future full qwerty BlackBerry, make it look "old"? Guess what guys, to most other people, our full qwerty devices look old anyways. It's up to BlackBerry's marketing department to make sure their message is clear: these new qwerty devices with the "old" belt of buttons still offer all the newness of BlackBerry 10.

Whether I have confidence or any faith that BlackBerry's marketing department is capable of articulating that message...well, that's an entirely different story.

[Tatwi]

Just thought I would mention that there is also a lot of irrational hate towards horizontal sliders around here, despite them being excellent for older people and people with physical issues.

My mother has MS and needs huge keys with that room for fumbling only a physical key press offers. She tried a Bold, but the keys were too small. She tried an Android touch screen, but navigation was too hard to achieve with her shaky hands. She now is content to keep her cheap Nokia flip phone and just get pictures of her grand kids and do her email on her desk-locked, isolated computer.

I wish I had the money to get her that older Motorola Android horizontal slider, but it's more than I can afford just to try it out. Plus, I am not able to physically be there to help her with it, as we live on opposite sides of the country.

Moral of the story? What is great for you might be a nightmare for someone else.

Magnificently composed using CB10 on my BB Z10!

[dtarin]

Text editing is far easier and faster with a track pad.

I got used to my z10 and every now and then I find myself wishing I had a track pad to get through some editing faster. But then I'm conflicted because I like the maximum screen area provided by not having the belt.

For me a virtual track pad might be the best of both worlds as it can show up when editing text and can vanish the rest of the time when not really needed. Might be a more suited feature for the flat screen models.




Posted via CB10

[MrGlenn]

First of all, in a general response I am disappointed you think I have not read the topic. All we have right now is opinions, because there are no facts about how 'the belt' may (or may not) be implemented, or how it will (or will not) be appreciated. And to be fair, pretty much all you have said in your OP about BB10, and the reasons for its lack of success are also just opinions.

Well you are right about an on screen mouse already being available. But I am more concerned about the fact that I do not believe BB is capable of bringing back 'the belt' in a proper way. In fact, a lot of current BB10 apps, and even some OS-screens do not support selecting parts of text. So there is caveat 1 of why will not look properly implemented. That is the kind of 'change needed' I was referring to.
So it may not affect software responsiveness, but it will not look to be 100% unless they make functional changes.

Lots of posts on this topic and others suggest that what will happen is "nothing".
It's already built-in via Bluetooth mouse and keyboard support (and is built into PlayBook OS also). There's room for improvement, but it's mostly there and the impact would be nil.

And about the apps. There is no evidence in this thread to support that they will not need changing. Of course the coding is the same, and the mouse framework is already there, but I am talking about the way BB10 apps are used, not the way they are made.
Let me specify: for a lot of the most loved BB10 apps, developers have gone out of there way to add eye candy in the form of gesture based controls. For things like switching tabs, to things like a dragdown menu for settings, a nice peek-function. I do not see how those could ever be 'simulated' by a mouse pointer. And the menu key, or the back buttons, maybe they can help a little, but a lot of these apps do not have anything useful in the 'menu'. Besides sharing/browsing/refreshing, that sort of thing. The reason the menu button on BBOS worked so well, was because that was the only way to get to the full settings available.
There are even some apps that do not use a menu at all, and instead use an extra tab.
Consumers choosing 'the belt' will expect the phone to be fully browsable without using gestures like BBOS was, and for apps like that to fully incorporate 'the belt' they would need to be rewritten. Developer interest is already spread thin without that extra hurdle.

Thanks for asking! No, nothing would have to be rewritten.

I like the fact that you are proposing making two separate lines. One with buttons, and one without. If BB can do that properly without losing focus on either I think that would be a great trial. But I do not see how, with the current resources they have, that could be the case. I like what you told people complaining about screen size though, it should not affect the screen how many buttons you have, just the overall device size. And since we already use giant phones, one with a few more buttons would not be unusually big.

This proves you are thinking about it, but no, there wouldn't be any change to the way BB10 works today, especially if you're on a Belt-less device (like a Z10 or Z30 or Q10 or Q5).

This Surface comparison is an odd one you have made before. A tablet with a (fully running) desktop OS, which is clearly designed to be the 'laptop amongst tablets' can not be compared in form or functionality to a phone. First of all the Surface keyboard is equal the size of the tablet, that would mean a Z10 with a Z10-sized keyboard+belt beneath it. And of course the Surface does not work optimally without the keyboard, it was designed specifically for it. On the other had BB10 is designed for no keys, and Q users just happen to get the benefit of a keyboard anyway.

You should try using a Surface Pro 2 tablet with full Windows 8.1 and no keyboard... then attach the keyboard thing to it and try it some more. When there's no keyboard, you use the touchscreen and an on screen keyboard appears when needed (just like BB10 actually) but when you attach a keyboard and mouse, you can use the mouse just fine, and the keyboard doesn't pop up automatically because the computer knows you have a physical keyboard available. So it's relatively straightforward to deal with any of these objections.

Yeah that was a pretty bad analogy, but consider this: touchscreens may not have made buttons obsolete, and there are obviously scenarios where 'the belt' would be better, I am just of the opinion BB10 is not one of those scenarios.

For the same reason that things are still made of bronze for one reason or another today. Iron didn't make bronze completely obsolete, but there are probably applications where bronze is better than iron (any metallurgists around who care to chime in?)

To end this post: I am not against bringing back 'the belt'. I am just not convinced it will solve any of the real issues with BB10, and it will create yet another split in BB10 space that will confuse consumers. You even mention this may be used well in conjunction with a slider, which has an even smaller target audience than 'the belt'.

PS: @ ssbtech: text selecting is w��y easier than you make it look in that video, I suggest you update to the most recent OS (if not already on it), or practising a bit more. For me the selectors hardly ever 'snap' to the wrong place and if they do you can just use the selecting bubble to skip forward/backward a few spots.
The selecting bubble by the way is pretty much a virtual trackpad already.

[kbz1960]

Just thought I would mention that there is also a lot of irrational hate towards horizontal sliders around here, despite them being excellent for older people and people with physical issues.

My mother has MS and needs huge keys with that room for fumbling only a physical key press offers. She tried a Bold, but the keys were too small. She tried an Android touch screen, but navigation was too hard to achieve with her shaky hands. She now is content to keep her cheap Nokia flip phone and just get pictures of her grand kids and do her email on her desk-locked, isolated computer.

I wish I had the money to get her that older Motorola Android horizontal slider, but it's more than I can afford just to try it out. Plus, I am not able to physically be there to help her with it, as we live on opposite sides of the country.

Moral of the story? What is great for you might be a nightmare for someone else.

Magnificently composed using CB10 on my BB Z10!

Great point but with BBRY laying off hundreds of people, cutting back, they cancelled other phones in the pipe to slim down what they offer and had themselves up for sale not so long ago the company that should be trying to provide that?

I think some of my dislike of this is, can they afford to do this? I guess maybe it doesn't cost that much more in mfg and parts and I have no idea how much effort getting it into the OS is.

[Bbnivende]

Great point but with BBRY laying off hundreds of people, cutting back, they cancelled other phones in the pipe to slim down what they offer and had themselves up for sale not so long ago the company that should be trying to provide that?

I think some of my dislike of this is, can they afford to do this? I guess maybe it doesn't cost that much more in mfg and parts and I have no idea how much effort getting it into the OS is.

You can get iphone cases with a horizontal keyboard . Keyboard Buddy Apple iPhone 5 Case - The best of both worlds. An ultra slim, slide out, bluetooth, backlit keyboard for the Apple iPhone 5.

The potential market for a horizontal slider appears to be smaller than the potential market for a portrait slider which had reasonable sales in the Enterprise market.

[Ragbert]

I remember reading here, not that long ago, that BBOS phones still far outsell BB10 phones. If all those BBOS users are saying they aren't interested in an all-gesture phone, but would still like to have a phone that is updatable, secure, networkable, etc, then perhaps creating a hybrid phone, one that has both gestures and the buttons all the BBOS people clamour for, is a good way to coax them into upgrading.

My Q10 is my first Blackberry, so I have no personal history with the trackpad (or "the belt" as I'm seeing it called in here). But I chose the Q10 because I wanted the best physical keyboard I could get. I love it, but I have to say that the one annoying thing about trying to type quickly on it, is the time and attention it takes to do a simple and accurate cut/copy/paste. Or to utch that circle-thing (selector bubble? thanks, thurask) just to the right place inside a bunch of tiny text, to make a correction. I would welcome anything, whether a trackpad, a trackpoint (a la Thinkpad's "eraser" mouse), or some other kind of physical tool to make this easier. For those who don't need it, great- then don't buy one. I'd be curious to try a trackpad, just to see if it's the solution everyone says it is. The Q10 is a great phone as is though, and of course, if you hate buttons of any kind, just get a Z and don't worry about what BBOS users want. I suspect, however, that there is a huge and largely silent (on CB anyway) demographic of cell owners out there who have been waiting for something familiar enough to them, that they could comfortably upgrade to BB10 and still feel like their hands know what to do. My 2-cents, anyway.

My Q10, SQN100-2, running 10.2.1.2141 :-)

[ssbtech]

And about the apps. There is no evidence in this thread to support that they will not need changing. Of course the coding is the same, and the mouse framework is already there, but I am talking about the way BB10 apps are used, not the way they are made.
Let me specify: for a lot of the most loved BB10 apps, developers have gone out of there way to add eye candy in the form of gesture based controls. For things like switching tabs, to things like a dragdown menu for settings, a nice peek-function. I do not see how those could ever be 'simulated' by a mouse pointer.

It seems to me that you are drawing the conclusion that the addition of the trackpad would necessitate the removal of the BB10 swipe/gesture UI.

This is where I think people get mixed up.

The addition of the trackpad should not be confused for the removal of BB10 gestures and return to the BBOS7 style of navigation.

[BB_Junky]

I guess they can drop the "keep moving" theme song and start using "Nearer my god to thee" song for their commercials now.....


Sent from my super secret shoe device using Tapatalk HD

[Bbnivende]

The notion that Q10 sales did not meet expectations because of the lack of a belt is silly. Sales have been in steady decline, even when the 9900 came out.

This sort of backwards-thinking-nostalgia for decade-old devices has got to go.

Yes the sales of phones with a screen size less than 4 inches is in decline.
BlackBerry owns the physical keyboard niche - why not make the most the market that is available to you.

[Bla1ze]

I don't hate it.. I just think it's a step backwards and I won't be getting any devices that offer it. I think it's a good thing for those who want it back but I'm not among them. I've moved on and won't be looking forward to wise arse jokes every BlackBerry hating blog out there will post, lol. it's just ammo to imply BlackBerry is stuck in the dark ages.

[CecilTsunami]

My reasoning is, buttons break. As evidence I have a drawer littered with discarded worn out trackpads at work.

No buttons is better. If a belt returns, it better be virtual. Old BlackBerry phones were solid, those buttons were the only thing that felt rickety.


Posted via CB10

[Bla1ze]

My reasoning is, buttons break. As evidence I have a drawer littered with discarded worn out trackpads at work.

No buttons is better. If a belt returns, it better be virtual. Old BlackBerry phones were solid, those buttons were the only thing that felt rickety.


Posted via CB10

Haha! Trackballs FTW!

[billsterjito]

I refuse to hate the Belt but I really feel that it is no longer needed. If BlackBerry has to bring it back to gain much needed market share then so be it.... but it will need to be refined. It cannot be the same belt of the old BlackBerry. Something new and up to date needs to be implemented.



C0015B221 All about making Wine kits.

[TheScionicMan]

They should just make a case with a belt for the users that need one...

[ssbtech]

PS: @ ssbtech: text selecting is w��y easier than you make it look in that video, I suggest you update to the most recent OS (if not already on it), or practising a bit more. For me the selectors hardly ever 'snap' to the wrong place and if they do you can just use the selecting bubble to skip forward/backward a few spots.
The selecting bubble by the way is pretty much a virtual trackpad already.

It's not much improved. The blue handles are still fiddly and now the copy/paste pop-up gets in the way.

[raph_ryo]

The irrational hate and alarmist assumptions that adding physical buttons to SOME or even just ONE new qwerty will change BB10 OS on all devices is disappointing (and almost embarrassing).

I am a BlackBerry owner and Z10 daily user and do want a qwerty with a belt. I have learned that I prefer excellent communication tools over the larger screen. I really don't give a **** at all about "apps", social media, and whatnot.

I would be more than happy with a Bold 9900 chassis with BB10 OS, 2GB RAM, 1.4GHz dual core ARM CPU, and 32GB of storage. Preferably with a camera that doesn't suck. BlackBerry 10OS has a much better Web browser than BBOS7 and really that's the only noticeable upgrade for my usage that I have found with this Z10, apart from the speed due to the better CPU. For everything else, I actually really don't like the Z10 very much (especially BMM/SMS/Email).

The BB10 gestures are alright, but I am really quite shocked the flick up to close from the PlayBook is not on BB10. I find that where the BlackBerry button and app switch menu on OS4.5 to OS7 was 100% the first time I pressed the button, where as BB10 gestures can require several attempts to register, which is annoying. BB10 is not all cupcakes and sunshine...

Anyhow, I don't understand why so many Crackberry users feel the need to berate and belittle the things that others value, simply because they do not value them. I personally don't like touch screen devices and auto correct, but I don't spend my days imploring others to "move on" other more advanced technologies. Who am I to judge? And who are you?

What is most likely is that BlackBerry will continue to create Q10/Q5, Z10/Z30, and Bold/Curve style devices in tandem, because each hardware paradigm has value to BlackBerry users. I would not be surprised to see a modern day BlackBerry Pearl either, because innovation and functionality transcend the passage of time; 100 years later, cars still have rubber tires, because they work.

Magnificently composed using CB10 on my BB Z10!

I second this


Sent from my iPad using CB Forums mobile app