[robsteve]

What if the belt was below the keyboard in the area where the chin bar is? You would avoid accident touch screen gestures while using it.

[kbz1960]

I already tried BB10 with the Z10 and Q10, no more, it's BBOS and/or something else for me.


Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums

I rest my case. I think bfd represents "their people".

[goUSAFblue]

That would be a really interesting design. I cannot specifically think of any phone that has tried such a thing.

Would be really different (or innovative)

Posted via CB10

[southlander]

Thumb and index, perch phone on little, ring and middle fingers. Pinch to zoom still works.

Posted via CB10

Lol. I've done that when I had my other hand full. Not ideal to do.

Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.2141

[belfastdispatcher]

[QUOTE=southlander;10048026]

Lol. I've done that when I had my other hand full. Not ideal to do.

Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.2141

Why does that look like I said it when I didn't?


Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums

[afl777]

[QUOTE=belfastdispatcher;10048053]

Why does that look like I said it when I didn't?


Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums

Thorask said that...

[RyanGermann]

I rest my case. I think bfd represents "their people".

If your case is "why bother, there is nothing BB can do to make BB10 appeal to people who like BBOS" then a) it's hopeless because Android and iOS are probably only 2 major releases from eating BlackBerry's lunch in any area that BlackBerry currently excels and b) what do they have to lose?

Sound like you're arguing that BB should divest itself of all assets and return the value to the investors now, rather than wait for the inevitable decline to irrevocable irrelevance.

I disagree.

[Bbnivende]

What if the belt was below the keyboard in the area where the chin bar is? You would avoid accident touch screen gestures while using it.

It seems to me that when I use my 9900 web browser that I have never accidentally had a problem with the belt. I have had problems with the home virtual button on my Nexus 7 though.

[raw_dog]

What's your point? Should we change the colour of what "Green" traffic lights mean, or change the colour to blue because about 10 years ago someone had a breakthrough with blue LEDs so now Blue LEDs are all the rage to let's change all the Green traffic lights to blue?

Progress for Progress' sake is not always a good thing.

and again, since it merits repeating: you would still have a full touchscreen device without the Belt, but do you have a reason why BlackBerry should not ALSO release a device WITH the Belt? Aside from "old=bad new=good" which I kind of mention in the first post?

See the post from CrackedRosco. That is exactly what I was going to post, but my timing was off.

Posted via CB10

[RyanGermann]

Why does that look like I said it when I didn't?

I think whatever script on CB that does the "QUOTE" markup is messed up today... seeing lots of unbalanced [QUOTE] tags... I'll msg James about it.

[jwn66]

Yikes, going backwards yet again. People need to work on there fingering skillz. STOP MAKING SO MANY DIFFERENT PHONES BB. So much wasted time and $$ on umpteen million variations of phones, pick 2 and spend your time on getting apps, and maybe you'll sell some devices. sheesh. It's so simple lol...

[Grumblegrumble]

Following this post since the start, and as someone who hasn't owned a older bold or any of their qwerty devices, I don't know what they are capable of in terms of baked in function. What I can say however is this is has been a debate from the start as we all know. Though it was only until this whole debate that I actually take the side of bring the belt back.

For BB to go all touch gesture base on their OS really did in fact alienate many Legacy users. Frankly speaking,the same legacy users that got BB to be the titans they were for so long. Keep in mind, a Blackberry smartphone pre-dates the iphone by pretty much a decade. So to say legacy users thoughts and feelings don't count is adding insult to their injury in a sense (keeping full gesture in mind). People stating how apple fans even want to go all touch, Im not sure applies 100% here due to the fact that BB was out long before hand, carries a MUCH different user base from the start. Not to mention, if apple were to go no home button, and think there wouldn't be any out cry about it- you are mistaken (if anything they are condition people for one later with the new OS having some swipe feature to it). Most people I see using the older BBOS are middle aged, to people who have used qwerty and trackpads from the start (putting those "forced to use it" aside). They stick with what they know, and what works well them and their piece of mind... hmm, speaking of changes- how much change has the iphone or your average samsung seen in hardware buttons? They all remain pretty close from the start- and theres a reason for it.

Still think im nuts thats fine- here is another take to you windows users out there....

How did you feel using windows 8 for the first couple times coming from win xp or previous generations your whole life (Ifelt mad/Alienated)? From hardware dominate(KB n Mouse) to touch dominate- the translation isnt always great, especially those who expect a system UI to be similar to what they have been using for the past decade, and that seems to be a major point these legacy guys are stating... If foxconn is handling the HW, let them make a Q10b, or Q30 concept. and keep the user base that kept you in business happy. It cant hurt, and seeing a post or two above shouldn't be daunting for a dev. to incorporate to BB10.... .Let it ride a gen or two!

[Bbnivende]

Yikes, going backwards yet again. People need to work on there fingering skillz. STOP MAKING SO MANY DIFFERENT PHONES BB. So much wasted time and $$ on umpteen million variations of phones, pick 2 and spend your time on getting apps, and maybe you'll sell some devices. sheesh. It's so simple lol...

Nope it is not simple . What two phones do you pick ? Do you think that folks who would want the other models would buy one of your two phones instead ? Only Apple has succeeded with this approach and without new phone designs this fall they will be in trouble. BB10 does not offer any replacement for the BIS phone. Would you buy a Z3 in Victoria BC? or try to sell a Z30 to a farmer in Indonesia ?

[FCSC]

They should just ad a click wheel on the side of the Q10 below the charging port to satisfy those who need the accuracy of a trackpad/click wheel.

[ssbtech]

Honestly I don't think this should even be considered. They added a touchscreen not because it was "new" but because it is smarter and easier.

It is smarter in the sense that you just opened an extra half inch of screen space. And it is easier because it's a screen and you don't need to fumble around with buttons. I feel like adding this would simply be going back in technology. They need to stop focusing on getting bbos7 users and work on stealing iOS and Android users.

Break down your position into pieces you can clearly argue, please.

How is the touch-screen "smarter and easier" than a touchscreen+trackpad? Is the Bold 9900's function hindered by having a trackpad with the touchscreen?

Clarify "fumbling around with buttons", please. By "fumble" do you mean "press"? I don't see how the buttons are so awkward to use that it results in "fumbling".

And finally, please clarify "going back in technology". Perhaps a trackpad is "old technology" in the sense that it pre-dates touch-screens, but has the trackpad's functionality been superseded by other means? If you do much in the way of text editing, some would say no.



A lot of people seem to approach the trackpad as purely an icon/button/menu selector. If you limit it's use to just selecting buttons and icons on the screen, I'd agree that BB10's touch-screen based navigation is superior. But if you also include text editing and cursor manipulation in the trackpad's usage, then I have yet to see a comparable on-screen solution.

[MrGlenn]

The biggest problem from my perspective is what will happen to the software aspect of BB10. The way I see it, the 'belt' would need an entire software overlay on every BB10 screen to incorporate an on screen cursor. And what would that do to apps that currently have been written to take advantage fully of the gesture based OS, will they need to be rewritten to function with hardware buttons?
- If they do not, people will start complaining about lack of developer interest again.
And what would this do to the responsiveness of BB10, would this not be a pretty resource heavy feature?
- I am not looking forward to a sluggish OS, or inconsistency between hardware and touch controls.
And stuff like dedicated buttons would just make duplicate functions. Why a call button at all, when you can have more screen+onscreen callbutton in the same spot?

I am very skeptical. Look at it this way: who would bring bronze age technology (the physical buttons) to an iron age fight (everyone has just gotten used to the 0-button approach). I am not saying the buttons are bad, just that they are not what BB10 needs to improve.
Maybe this will convince a few BBOS upgraders, who will then immediately start complaining about the bad quality and calibration of those buttons. But I just see the downsides from a Software point-of-view to be much bigger.

[RyanGermann]

Yikes, going backwards yet again. People need to work on there fingering skillz. STOP MAKING SO MANY DIFFERENT PHONES BB. So much wasted time and $$ on umpteen million variations of phones, pick 2 and spend your time on getting apps, and maybe you'll sell some devices. sheesh. It's so simple lol...

...but apps won't come without real human beings buying and using devices... so that's priority one, and just "insisting" that consumers and businesses buy BB10 devices as is isn't working, hasn't worked, and I don't think it ever will work.

BlackBerry's opportunity to get app developers on board was before BB10 devices hit the market, and they really tried, but now that BB10 has proven not to have sales in the 20 million range, any developers that haven't come on board already are unlikely to do so unless the number of users isn't their only concern. Why isn't an Android port of Netflix available, it would cost Netflix almost nothing to do... but until there's a perception at Netflix that they're losing key demographics or what not because they aren't on BB10, they're not gonna come... although what Netflix did with Comcast re: paying for optimized bandwidth might just send some customers running because Netflix has given in to the pressure of the carriers... I'll be watching that with curiosity (and glee if it results in a mass exodus of subscribers who feel betrayed by Netflix). Maybe once they're desperate a BB10 version will suddenly appear.

But we have another what I'd call 'legitimate' objection to Belted devices: "keeping the device portfolio to very few devices" is a sound business strategy if you're the market leader like Apple... but if you're not, I think it's a recipe for blackberrys-current-situation i.e. 'disaster'... and Samsung's success is based on the OPPOSITE, lots of devices in many form factors, price points, even though their primary successful device is their flagship, the Galaxy Sx for the current model year (and keeping last year's flagship around to fill the lower-tier, like apple is doing with the 5C).

[kylef5993]

and huge is bad why now?

Have you read the hundreds of threads about people not wanting a Z10 with a keyboard? And how awkward the iPhone was with the typo case? I'm just stating what I've read on here.

Posted via CB10

[kylef5993]

Break down your position into pieces you can clearly argue, please.

How is the touch-screen "smarter and easier" than a touchscreen+trackpad? Is the Bold 9900's function hindered by having a trackpad with the touchscreen?

Clarify "fumbling around with buttons", please. By "fumble" do you mean "press"? I don't see how the buttons are so awkward to use that it results in "fumbling".

And finally, please clarify "going back in technology". Perhaps a trackpad is "old technology" in the sense that it pre-dates touch-screens, but has the trackpad's functionality been superseded by other means? If you do much in the way of text editing, some would say no.



A lot of people seem to approach the trackpad as purely an icon/button/menu selector. If you limit it's use to just selecting buttons and icons on the screen, I'd agree that BB10's touch-screen based navigation is superior. But if you also include text editing and cursor manipulation in the trackpad's usage, then I have yet to see a comparable on-screen solution.

Smart? Because. A touch screen allows a larger screen while keeping the same functions.
Easier? You don't have 4 buttons and a trackpad.

Can you not use the arrow when editing text? I haven't had a single problem with the arrow when selecting text or editing text.

I apologize for my use of the word "fumble" haha

I completely agree with you though. I just think that people value a larger touch screen more than adding 4 buttons and a track pad when you already have them included on the touch screen (besides the track pad of course).

Posted via CB10

[RyanGermann]

The biggest problem from my perspective is what will happen to the software aspect of BB10.

Lots of posts on this topic and others suggest that what will happen is "nothing".

The way I see it, the 'belt' would need an entire software overlay on every BB10 screen to incorporate an on screen cursor.

It's already built-in via Bluetooth mouse and keyboard support (and is built into PlayBook OS also). There's room for improvement, but it's mostly there and the impact would be nil.

And what would that do to apps that currently have been written to take advantage fully of the gesture based OS, will they need to be rewritten to function with hardware buttons?

Thanks for asking! No, nothing would have to be rewritten.

- If they do not, people will start complaining about lack of developer interest again.
And what would this do to the responsiveness of BB10, would this not be a pretty resource heavy feature?
- I am not looking forward to a sluggish OS, or inconsistency between hardware and touch controls.

This proves you are thinking about it, but no, there wouldn't be any change to the way BB10 works today, especially if you're on a Belt-less device (like a Z10 or Z30 or Q10 or Q5).

And stuff like dedicated buttons would just make duplicate functions. Why a call button at all, when you can have more screen+onscreen callbutton in the same spot?

You should try using a Surface Pro 2 tablet with full Windows 8.1 and no keyboard... then attach the keyboard thing to it and try it some more. When there's no keyboard, you use the touchscreen and an on screen keyboard appears when needed (just like BB10 actually) but when you attach a keyboard and mouse, you can use the mouse just fine, and the keyboard doesn't pop up automatically because the computer knows you have a physical keyboard available. So it's relatively straightforward to deal with any of these objections.

I am very skeptical. Look at it this way: who would bring bronze age technology (the physical buttons) to an iron age fight (everyone has just gotten used to the 0-button approach). I am not saying the buttons are bad, just that they are not what BB10 needs to improve.

For the same reason that things are still made of bronze for one reason or another today. Iron didn't make bronze completely obsolete, but there are probably applications where bronze is better than iron (any metallurgists around who care to chime in?)

Maybe this will convince a few BBOS upgraders, who will then immediately start complaining about the bad quality and calibration of those buttons. But I just see the downsides from a Software point-of-view to be much bigger.

This is conjecture and in my opinion unsupportable based on the numerous posts in this topic. If you didn't read them all but are interested or want to put your mind at ease, I respectfully suggest you do spend the half hour or so catching up and you might start to feel like this might not be a bad idea after all. Or not, that's up to you, but again, respectfully, I say that just because you can imagine lots of bad implementations or can't imagine good implementations that doesn't mean that the only way forward is a 'bad implementation' or that there aren't any good implementations.

[clickitykeys]

I have grown used to not having the belt. However, I would welcome the belt with open arms, provided they get the UI to behave well with BB10. I'd buy one of those!

One thing that I am not sure about is how a Blackberry with a keyboard and belt will find its way to its (niche) target market through all the pushback that will be provided by those who don't want to have the belt. Will need a smart advertising campaign.

[RyanGermann]

Smart? Because. A touch screen allows a larger screen while keeping the same functions. Easier? You don't have 4 buttons and a trackpad.

That... doesn't really make sense. Something not being in your way can make it easier, but something you need not being there makes things much harder... like getting into your locked house without your keys. I bet you would wish you had them when you're locked out.

Can you not use the arrow when editing text? I haven't had a single problem with the arrow when selecting text or editing text.

Lot's of people do. Here's some homework (there's that word again).

Go use the CrackBerry 10 app to compose a really REALLY long message. Any subject. At some point, pick up the second sentence in the third paragraph and make it a standalone-sentence in it's own paragraph between paragraphs 1 and 2. Use a stopwatch to keep track of how long it takes you. I bet it takes you more than 10-15 seconds.

With a trackpad, that would probably take 5 seconds... and most of your 10 seconds will be spent trying to position the insertion point then drag the perimeter markers to the right place without the entire thing scrolling to high heaven or jumping over where you want it, and then you have to get the "Cut" icon to show up and not disappear because if it does, you'll lose your selection (wha whaaa <-- sad trombone) and have to start again.

That is the reality of editing long blocks of text on a touchscreen device. The fact that lots of people don't seem to mind is another matter, I think, because lots do mind. Probably business executives that can afford whatever they want are among them.

What is that you say "Why would you not just go to a computer if you're going to edit long form documents?". Exactly.

I apologize for my use of the word "fumble" haha

I completely agree with you though. I just think that people value a larger touch screen more than adding 4 buttons and a track pad when you already have them included on the touch screen (besides the track pad of course).

You a) wouldn't have to buy a device with a BELT at all, and b) if you did use one for whatever reason, why would the screen have to be smaller (and not have the device be bigger?)

There are people (not you!) who say dismissively "Why do you need the buttons? Get over it!" and I say dismissively right back at them "Is the device being 1 centimetre longer REALLY going to be a problem to accommodate the BELT? Get over it."

But this is about choice not "getting over" anything. You can still have your Belt-less device that will continue to operate exactly (or hopefully better) than your current BB10 device while others can CHOOSE to buy into the BB10 platform with familiar buttons they love.

[RyanGermann]

Why do you need a trackpad when you can just touch anywhere you want on the screen? Why do you want dedicated buttons when virtual buttons do so much more and don't take up valuable real estate? Makes no sense to me.

VIRTUAL BUTTONS ARE THE DEFINITION OF TAKING UP SCREEN REAL ESTATE!

Saying virtual buttons DON'T take us screen space is the misnomer of the day.

[RyanGermann]

One thing that I am not sure about is how a Blackberry with a keyboard and belt will find its way to its (niche) target market through all the pushback that will be provided by those who don't want to have the belt. Will need a smart advertising campaign.

I'd agree... I can see a one minute commercial featuring John Chen in a suit, talking to the camera: "You asked, we listened".

"We've added Android app support directly into BlackBerry" and have him showing off something like Netflix or Instagram just to spite those... people.

"A lot of you miss the BELT"... and show how BB10 on a full touch device SLIDER with the Belt and keyboard can STILL PLAY MOVIES ON THE BIG SCREEN (Avengers 2 tie in, anyone?)

Get the best of both worlds with BlackBerry: full screen slab with no hard buttons, or a choice of devices with the Trackpad and hard buttons... your choice, best of both worlds."

It's an easy sell if you ask me (and no, it doesn't have to mean they make the devices at a loss, they have to make fewer and charge more or make less profit per device, not go bankrupt in the process).

[conite]

Interesting topic.

I am a long time BlackBerry power user and switched from a 9900 to a Z10 (now a Z30) on day one.

I sucked it up and retrained myself to use the new OS.

Now I couldn't imagine going back. I'm not the quickest in the world, but I have increased MY typing speed from 50wpm to over 75wpm (net after corrections) , and find the gestures much more efficient, for doing pretty much everything, than the old tech.

I am not opposed to choice. I have no issue with people who prefer the old ways.

HOWEVER, BlackBerry has to focus its energies and can't be all things to all people. In principle, you want the smallest package possible that delivers the biggest screen and the longest battery life. Something has to give.

Perhaps a poll can be conducted, but it is my perception that people complain more about lack of screen real estate on a Q10 than the loss of the track pad. If you give more screen AND the trackpad, you get unwieldy.

There is soooo much more to being a BlackBerry phone than the legacy trackpad. Die hard BBOS users would have FAR more to complain about if they jumped to iOS or Android. BB10 is pure BlackBerry. I would suggest that if people are prepared to leave the platform because of the lack of a trackpad, they were never really BlackBerry people to begin with and they would leave anyway. So why bother spending the precious resources?

Z30STA100-5/10.2.1.2141


Posted via CB10