Why the Trackpad (Belt) hate?
- kbz1960Doesn't MatterBecause it says BlackBerry on it. The legacy users don't want a BB10 phone with legacy buttons. They want modern specs and buttons but they also want BBOS. It may very well do OK in enterprise but it would still surprise me if many would choose this phone over an android or iPhone like many are still doing today.02-24-14 12:46 PMLike 0
- kbz1960Doesn't MatterI do, because BB10 is different enough from BB7 that BB7 users might as well switch to Android or iOS: there is no smooth upgrade path for BBOS users.
Also, offering unique devices based on proprietary technology is a way to succeed, far better than offering similar devices that in measurable and significant ways are or are perceived to be 'inferior' to the competition, and a Belted device IS superior in measurable and significant ways over a touchscreen device, if not by every measure, but significant market-differentiating ones.
Yes, they would have to sell "better" than the current lineup to be considered a success... but why do you think the alternative (full screen and keyboard devices without the Belt) WOULD sell. Since there is a calendar year of failure to sell as evidence against "beltless devices", I think the argument for the Belt fares far better than any argument against the Belt if you are going to talk about device form factors.02-24-14 12:52 PMLike 0 - Because it says BlackBerry on it. The legacy users don't want a BB10 phone with legacy buttons. They want modern specs and buttons but they also want BBOS. It may very well do OK in enterprise but it would still surprise me if many would choose this phone over an android or iPhone like many are still doing today.
There's hard data that they certainly don't want BlackBerry 10 devices with either a keyboard or without, large screen or small, low-cost keyboard or premioum, large all-touch or 'smaller' all touch, whether at a launch-day price premium or heavily discounted "inventory mark down" price, none of which have the Belt on them, either. So... what is the common denominator here? Is it far fetched to suggest "none of them have the traditional Belt buttons" as a reason why there are still vastly more BBOS users than BB10 users? Do you have any suggestion as to what the devices should be, Belt-less, but be smash hits, moving end-user sales quantities in the 7 digits for devices sold? A lot of people suggest that if only they'd release a superphone with a octacore 4 GHz processor and 6 gig of ram with a 6" screen and 4K screen, THAT would be "it". I don't agree, but that's another thing to try, as is Belt-ing up a couple of devices.
That is to say, even if it DOES look slightly embarrassing to admit mistakes and go back to the drawing board, well, I would go over and sync my Newton to my Windows Millenium PC running Bob and get my notes on that one and get back to you.Last edited by RyanGermann; 02-24-14 at 01:29 PM.
02-24-14 12:58 PMLike 0 - Why do people keep talking about losing screen when talking about the track pad? What about the screen and keyboard being to different parts of the same device don't some people get? It's not one or the other. For the dense out there the phone is not a fixed size ! Adding to the keyboard length does not shorten the screen, it does how ever give more internal room for a bigger battery.
Posted via CB10RyanGermann and Bbnivende like this.02-24-14 01:02 PMLike 2 - kbz1960Doesn't MatterThey certainly don't want BlackBerry 10 devices with either a keyboard or a screen, both a low-cost keyboard device and two sized of all touch devices, significantly marked down in price, that DON'T have the Belt on them, either. So... do you have any suggestion as to what the devices should be, Belt-less, but be smash hits, moving end-user sales quantities in the 7 digits for devices sold? A lot of people suggest that if only they'd release a superphone with a octacore 4 GHz processor and 6 gig of ram with a 6" screen and 4K screen, THAT would be "it". I don't agree, but that's another thing to try, as is Belt-ing up a couple of devices.
I thing the comment "not listening to their users" and 2 changes to the entireo management team in 2 years shows poorly too... I think objections to adding the Belt because of the "optics" don't really hold water in terms of the actual impact in the market.02-24-14 01:05 PMLike 0 - kbz1960Doesn't MatterWhy do people keep talking about losing screen when talking about the track pad? What about the screen and keyboard being to different parts of the same device don't some people get? It's not one or the other. For the dense out there the phone is not a fixed size ! Adding to the keyboard length does not shorten the screen, it does how ever give more internal room for a bigger battery.
Posted via CB1002-24-14 01:08 PMLike 0 - I hope "their users" they listen to are the right users. From what I've seen on here "their users" are a minority. I guess this isn't really a good place to get a feel for what "their users" want as it isn't only people who have to sort thru thousands of emails a day from their cupcake company that come here.
Hardware buttons were all that the world of device designers had to work with when BBOS devices were designed: capacitive touchscreens weren't common, and resistive touchscreens were, and in many ways still are, crappy from a UX perspective.
But now that we have capacitive buttons and screens, the tactile experience afforded by physical buttons that are purpose built to do ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY are "bad"? I wonder why all the elevator buttons have changed from touch-based back to good old physical buttons? Sometimes, you LOSE something "moving forward" and going back is a GOOD idea, not a bad one.
False. The Torch slider wasn't a problem. You slide the screen forward (which some might expect would throw the balance way off) and nope, it doesn't tip out of your hand. And you can compensate with a slight counterweight in the bottom of the device if the center of gravity is off... I'd do it by positioning the battery near the bottom of the device and making it BIGGER if I needed the device to be more bottom-heavy, which sounds like a longer battery which is another BONUS for adding the Belt.
Oh, and kbz1960: I respect you alot, but that doesn't mean I can let this slide: did you say that despite your objections to the Belt you haven't upgraded to BB10 yet? For the love of pete why are you arguing against something that might bring a whole bunch more BBOS users (not you, but others) to BB10? What is it you're waiting for BB10 to become before you upgrade?neoberry99 likes this.02-24-14 01:24 PMLike 1 - kbz1960Doesn't MatterI challenge that assertion: there are tens of millions of BBOS users that are STILL on BBOS devices but haven't upgraded to BB10. Saying that the vast majority are not the "right users" seems like something is missing in your rationale. I don't know if it can be put to words, but I'll try to put it in my own words.
Hardware buttons were all that the world of device designers had to work with when BBOS devices were designed: capacitive touchscreens weren't common, and resistive touchscreens were, and in many ways still are, crappy from a UX perspective.
But now that we have capacitive buttons and screens, the tactile experience afforded by physical buttons that are purpose built to do ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY are "bad"? I wonder why all the elevator buttons have changed from touch-based back to good old physical buttons? Sometimes, you LOSE something "moving forward" and going back is a GOOD idea, not a bad one.
False. The Torch slider wasn't a problem. You slide the screen forward (which some might expect would throw the balance way off) and nope, it doesn't tip out of your hand. And you can compensate with a slight counterweight in the bottom of the device if the center of gravity is off... I'd do it by positioning the battery near the bottom of the device and making it BIGGER if I needed the device to be more bottom-heavy, which sounds like a longer battery which is another BONUS for adding the Belt.
Oh, and kbz1960: I respect you alot, but that doesn't mean I can let this slide: did you say that despite your objections to the Belt you haven't upgraded to BB10 yet? For the love of pete why are you arguing against something that might bring a whole bunch more BBOS users (not you, but others) to BB10? What is it you're waiting for BB10 to become before you upgrade?
Edit: I also said "their users" that blackberry is talking about seem to be a minority on CB.02-24-14 01:35 PMLike 0 -
The reality is we've been pushed out or made to feel like we don't belong.
Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums02-24-14 01:43 PMLike 0 -
Third option: a BB10 Belted device with BBOS feature parity... but without BIS support in the device and on the network, I don't think BD would be satisfied based on the posts I've read detailing what he values most about his BBOS device... which is bad for BD, and as I said earlier in the topic, I'm not versed in the hardcore benefits of BIS and lament that carriers don't / can't see BIS as an "opportunity" rather than a liability... whyever that is.02-24-14 01:53 PMLike 0 - Yes. Developers.
BlackBerry already has a problem attracting developers to the platform. This will only make their job harder than it is (having to develop for Z10 and Z3 and then changing their apps for the Q10.
Throw a track pad in there? You have a bigger problem.
If implemented properly, the buttons and trackpad would simply replicate the on-screen and gesture functions.
Pressing the "call" buttons would bring up the phone, pressing the "BlackBerry" key would simply bring up the overflow menu and using the trackpad would simply move a cursor on the screen.
Developers would in no way be inconvenienced by a properly implemented set of buttons and trackpad.RyanGermann likes this.02-24-14 01:56 PMLike 1 - I don't think the buttons or trackpad would make it frustrating for developments.
If implemented properly, the buttons and trackpad would simply replicate the on-screen and gesture functions.
Pressing the "call" buttons would bring up the phone, pressing the "BlackBerry" key would simply bring up the overflow menu and using the trackpad would simply move a cursor on the screen.
Developers would in no way be inconvenienced by a properly implemented set of buttons and trackpad.
Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums02-24-14 02:01 PMLike 0 - The trackpad/belt is a major affront to the BB10 design paradigm, especially when the engineers made such a big deal about having no buttons, and the trackpad seems silly on a touchscreen.
BB10 should have some buttons; but, adding the entire trackpad is a step too far. Maybe some soft buttons like Android would have sufficed.02-24-14 02:02 PMLike 0 - The trackpad/belt is a major affront to the BB10 design paradigm, especially when the engineers made such a big deal about having no buttons, and the trackpad seems silly on a touchscreen.
BB10 should have some buttons; but, adding the entire trackpad is a step too far.
Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums02-24-14 02:05 PMLike 0 - Praise Chen and Hallelujah.
http://forums.crackberry.com/general...g-back-908892/
99% of Anti-Belt bias comes down to "Trackpad is old, touchscreen is new, old is bad, new is good"...
Posted via CB1002-24-14 02:06 PMLike 0 - ..that just isn't true at all. People don't want a belt because the Q10 already has a small screen. You're just throwing away screen real estate by throwing a belt on it. Plus what would be the point when you have all the buttons on the screen anyways...
Posted via CB10
Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums02-24-14 02:08 PMLike 0 - Honestly I don't think this should even be considered. They added a touchscreen not because it was "new" but because it is smarter and easier.
It is smarter in the sense that you just opened an extra half inch of screen space. And it is easier because it's a screen and you don't need to fumble around with buttons. I feel like adding this would simply be going back in technology. They need to stop focusing on getting bbos7 users and work on stealing iOS and Android users.
Posted via CB1002-24-14 02:09 PMLike 0 -
Posted via CB1002-24-14 02:11 PMLike 0 - I have never said this before but your post is totally clueless. Yes, if they added a physical keyboard to to the bottom of a Z10 or a Z30 the ergonomics would be wanting. If they add a belt to a Q10 the device will still be shorter than most if not all popular phones on the market. I have said this many times. The issue with the Q models is they they can not be much wider. With a 1:1 screen the Q will never be a big device unless they want an improperly wide device. You should look at a 9900 or a Q tear down. The screen or for that matter the keyboard add very little weight to the device.
Perhaps if they made a Q with a 4:3 screen then having a belt might be an option that they could avoid. If it were a question of real screen real estate then I would vote for the screen. As far as any phone being top heavy, that just should not be with a good design and computers involved in making the phone.02-24-14 02:13 PMLike 0 -
How does it seem silly. You mean, a "virtual trackpad"?
If you are a BB10 user you must download and try the editor that has the virtual trackpad: the developer is Yuri Salkinov and it's pretty easy to find, but here's a link to the Web-browser page for it:
TrackPad Editor - BlackBerry World
It's great, but you may find that it's not so simple to use without the physical tactile response (i.e. you can't feel where it is with your thumb because it's flat on the screen, not raised).
Here are a number of polls showing how many people want hard buttons. Just about half want phones with hardware buttons.
http://www.androidpolice.com/2011/12...tware-buttons/
http://www.addictivetips.com/android...do-you-prefer/
If there are any polls of this nature showing an overwhelming preference for virtual buttons, I can't find it. If half the people want physical buttons for whatever reason, that's not insignificant.Last edited by RyanGermann; 02-24-14 at 02:31 PM.
Bbnivende likes this.02-24-14 02:14 PMLike 1 -
- So you are in the market for a BB10 device or you are an android user looking for something new and you do not like the looks of WP8. If you can find one, are you going to think - I better not buy a Z30 because they offer a Q10 (etc) with phone buttons. Of course not. If you are in the market for a physical keyboard device with its small screen are you going to not buy it because of the belt, of course not.
I looked back at the reviews for the 9900 and the all touch 9850 and the reviewers of the all touch phone did not appreciate the trackpad where as the reviewers of the 9900 liked the trackpad or were silent on the issue. The bottom line is that there are different standards for physical keyboard devices that have small screens. Users and reviewers can accept the difference, why can not Z owners ?02-24-14 02:26 PMLike 0
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Why the Trackpad (Belt) hate?
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