06-12-16 12:52 AM
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  1. Ronindan's Avatar
    You seem to be focusing on the differences in the tasks and ignoring the commonalities. Certainly there are differences between 10 finger touch typing and typing on a PKB. The Purdue study though focuses on the effect of tactile feedback. So they keep everything constant and insert or remove tactile feedback. The result shows a clear benefit of tactile feedback. Now you raise a valid point that their keyboard is not exactly the same as a smartphone keyboard. Ok.

    However, it is a reasonable expectation given what we know of human physiology and control systems that the result of tactile feedback from the Purdue study should translate over to a smart phone as well. I don't claim this as 'proof ' (there is no such thing as proof in science, only induction--- the sun rose yesterday so I expect it to rise again tomorrow) . So a similar study to the Purdue study but using smartphone size keys would be great-- but I don't know of one off hand, but there is an opportunity for a masters thesis if anyone wants to do that. However the lack of such a study does not negate the expectation.
    Unless you type on a pkb using all your ten fingers - any tactile feedback you get is not the same as typing on a full-fledged keyboard. And when it comes down to it - it is a mute point. Consumers (commercial and private consumers) don't really care that much for pkbs. Is there a demand for it - yes, it is enough that oem and manufacturers feel that they need to put a lot of effort into it - clearly not.

    And also pkb supporters make a big deal on how "productive" they are since they can type long emails, letters and reports on a tiny plastic buttons and on a small screen is redundant. Good for them for being able do so - but that is not a quality of someone who is "productive" or "work oriented". It just mean that pkb supporters like to type on a small plastic keyboards.
    Last edited by Ronindan; 06-11-16 at 11:53 AM.
    06-11-16 11:42 AM
  2. TgeekB's Avatar
    You seem to be focusing on the differences in the tasks and ignoring the commonalities. Certainly there are differences between 10 finger touch typing and typing on a PKB. The Purdue study though focuses on the effect of tactile feedback. So they keep everything constant and insert or remove tactile feedback. The result shows a clear benefit of tactile feedback. Now you raise a valid point that their keyboard is not exactly the same as a smartphone keyboard. Ok.

    However, it is a reasonable expectation given what we know of human physiology and control systems that the result of tactile feedback from the Purdue study should translate over to a smart phone as well. I don't claim this as 'proof ' (there is no such thing as proof in science, only induction--- the sun rose yesterday so I expect it to rise again tomorrow) . So a similar study to the Purdue study but using smartphone size keys would be great-- but I don't know of one off hand, but there is an opportunity for a masters thesis if anyone wants to do that. However the lack of such a study does not negate the expectation.
    It is an interesting concept, even if not validating similar results with smartphones. I can see where there may be ergonomic issues hovering in expectation over a virtual keyboard (this must provoke muscular attention) vs. immediately pressing a physical key. Over time, I can see how this repeated action could cause muscular strain.
    Even more common, I would think, is the strain of looking down at a portable device vs. using a computer at a desk in a more suitable ergonomic position. While some claim they can type without looking, we can't yet read without looking. The spine was not meant to be in this position for extended periods of time and it is certainly causing physical issues for many of us.
    06-11-16 11:49 AM
  3. Bbnivende's Avatar
    This is insinuating that "most phone users" have the collective age of 10, as a decade ago MOST of us used devices with PKBs which were standard on mobile devices near and far... Now there were some early entry 'all touch devices' that pioneered the future. IBM's Simon for example, as well as the Sony Ericsson P800 for early pre-Iphone PKB-less devices... And an honorable mention to the Ericsson R380 which was uniquely innovative on its own, but otherwise, it wasn't until 2007 when the original iPhone debuted that all touch took a firm hold... So the statement quoted is irrelevant as far as 'most phone users NEVER using a PKB'...


    Posted via CB10
    Smartphone phone sales in 2007 were 122 million. Last year 1.4 billion were shipped. There is not set criteria for "most" but I think the view that the market for PKB is very small. If there was a larger potential market Samsung would make a version.

    There seems to be a durable market for feature phones that use buttons.

    Just because the PKB market is small does not mean that BlackBerry should abandon it. I am very much in favour of the new Rome. I have no illusions that the greater market will follow suit.

    As an aside, I am no better or worse typist on a VKB or PKB. When I used my 9900, I never thought that could adapt but I did. I prefer the BlackBerry VKB over others I have tried.
    Last edited by Bbnivende; 06-11-16 at 12:24 PM.
    06-11-16 12:00 PM
  4. Elephant_Canyon's Avatar
    So what are you suggesting? That tactile feedback makes no difference for two finger touch typing? Well that's an interesting hypothesis that would violate existing ergonomic principles. Have you cited a paper that demonstrates your hypothesis?
    I made no such hypothesis. I merely stated that you didn't adequately make your case.
    06-11-16 12:00 PM
  5. donnation's Avatar
    This is one of the reasons I love CrackBerry. Where in the hell else are people going to argue over something as insignificant in the big picture as what type of keyboard is superior on a phone? I tell you what, its one of the great places to go to on the web, and I hope it never changes.
    TgeekB and Ronindan like this.
    06-11-16 01:53 PM
  6. anon(9188202)'s Avatar
    Great question, OP, but what about these equally perplexing mysteries:
    1. Why aren't there crank car starters for those of us who don't like keys?
    2. Why doesn't Microsoft still make DOS for people who hate Windows?
    3. Why were the telephone booths on every street corner replaced with a Tim Hortons?
    4. Why can't I find Count Chocula, Crystal Pepsi, Jell-o Pudding Pops, or Smurf Pasta at the grocery store?
    5. What ever happened to pubic hair?



    Posted via CB10 with my awesome Passport
    06-11-16 03:27 PM
  7. crackbrry fan's Avatar
    Short answer is the majority of consumers have moved on to the all "touch " device. Which isn't a bad thing especially as the best ones out there is the BlackBerry 10 devices.

    Posted via CB10
    06-11-16 04:06 PM
  8. Tsepz_GP's Avatar
    Yeah, 'it's the corporations, dude!' They're brainwashing the public into buying superior technology. . . by the billion$.

    Posted via CB10
    I couldn't take his post seriously as he speaks as though the iPad came before iPhone, LOL.
    06-11-16 04:23 PM
  9. Tsepz_GP's Avatar
    I guess if you used your phone laying down on a flat surface when you type that would be true.
    Exactly. I love how people clutch at straws without thinking here. The usage scenarios of a phone and desktop are different.
    06-11-16 04:27 PM
  10. Tsepz_GP's Avatar
    The old 'let's agree to disagree ' approach when confronted by the obvious? Think about it next time you type a text message on a touch screen while you stare at your finger.
    I barely stair at my fingers when typing on my touchscreen, as I am used to the position of the keys, muscle memory is a great thing. The beauty with a VKB is that I am able to adjust key sizes to my exact liking, I do this with each new phone, whereas with PKB you were stuck with whatever the OEM gave you.
    06-11-16 04:36 PM
  11. Tsepz_GP's Avatar
    Thank you for that critique. Wouldn't it be great if we could find a university study that had evaluated a blackberry against say a Samsung. Then you would say that it only applies to samsungs, and not to Apple 6s. And if we used 30 subjects you would ask for 60. And if it was only 2 studies you would want 100 studies. And if the subjects were seated you would ask about standing.

    All valid, points, and guess what, that is the limitation of the scientific method. I found a study for you and you find reasons to reject it. I could find more and if you are not serious about trying to understand the underlying principles you will reject those too. Even Einstein's relativity theory was rejected at the start in the same way.

    The point is that all ergonomic studies show the same thing and for good reasons, and that is closing the control loop between eyes and fingers is slower than closing the loop between touch and fingers. Nothing to do with sitting standing driving juggling. The pathway through the body is longer and so slower if it has to go from eyes to fingers than through the reflex system. Slower neural pathways means performance is worse and so you can try to push the speed up without tactile feedback, but you will get more errors. Or you can try to reduce the errors and you will be slower. You can put in predictive error correction, but then you could do that with the tactile keyboard too. You can try to make the touch screen keys bigger, but then you have to move your fingers further, and then you have Fitts law problems.

    The point is the scientific principles point to tactile feedback improve performance.


    Anyway, what would I know, I 'm just an old fart, as someone else implied--now apparently that's a more rock solid argument on this forum than a scientific principled approach. What a pity.
    Its quite simple, if your 'studies' were true, we'd have tons of PKB phones, but we don't. Done.
    06-11-16 04:53 PM
  12. Tsepz_GP's Avatar
    Short answer is the majority of consumers have moved on to the all "touch " device. Which isn't a bad thing especially as the best ones out there is the BlackBerry 10 devices.

    Posted via CB10
    That is truly hilarious. Glad its your opinion.
    MikeX74 likes this.
    06-11-16 04:57 PM
  13. georgeeipi's Avatar
    Its quite simple, if your 'studies' were true, we'd have tons of PKB phones, but we don't. Done.
    Or translating that into the health arena, "If the health food studies were true health food would dominate the market. But it doesn't, it's fast food. Done". I wonder why that type of logic doesn't work very well?
    06-11-16 05:49 PM
  14. crackbrry fan's Avatar
    That is truly hilarious. Glad its your opinion.
    It truly is hilarious it's also YOUR opinion and NOT a FACT!!!!!

    Posted via CB10
    06-11-16 05:51 PM
  15. georgeeipi's Avatar
    The lack of a study doesn't negate the expectation, but it also does not make it proof positive as you've stated in your earlier threads. I deal with studies on a daily basis and any time I present one I can't say "Well this happened when we did this, and although this is a different variable or control we can expect the same outcome." Evidence supporting every variable is the only thing that carries water, at least in my line of work. I can't make the statement that "the reasonable expectation would be..." Because the response I would get is "Do the study with that control and show me the outcome, otherwise its just hearsay."
    I like your post. Yes, I've had the same experience. However, you can never control "every" variable,,,,ever. If the audience of your research don't like your result they always find a difference. In one effectiveness study I ran (it wasn't typing) they even argued that the software had been updated, which it had but had nothing to do with the phenomenon we were testing. Nevertheless, they argued since the experiment (double blind control, with over 30 randomly selected participants) was run on a different system, the results didn't apply to their new system. So in the end, all you are left with is understanding principles and then inferring the outcome, otherwise your experiment goes out of date extremely quickly.

    In this case, it would be great if there was a research result that looked specifically at blackberry classic vs, say iOS 9.3. I would love that, but it isn't there. But let 's pretend for as minute we had that study. We could discuss that now. Then along comes iOS9.4 I would bet that there will be VKB supporters that would then say, your study is no longer relevant, it only applies to iOS9.3. How would we argue the case that the study does or does not hold? We would have to go back to the principles (and assumptions) upon which the original experiment was based to establish an expectation. The alternative is to run yet another experiment. But experiments are expensive and so it is unlikely to happen.
    Last edited by georgeeipi; 06-11-16 at 06:46 PM.
    skstrials likes this.
    06-11-16 06:09 PM
  16. georgeeipi's Avatar
    Here's a two-part exercise to demonstrate why that study has no bearing on smartphones:
    Part 1: Go get a standard mechanical computer keyboard. Now, hold it in both hands and try to type something. You won't have an easy time of it.
    Part 2: Find a Priv (or Passport, or Classic, or Bold, or any other phone available to you that has a hardware keyboard). Place it on a flat surface, and try to touch type using all ten fingers, as you would on a computer keyboard. .
    Good points, but just because you can demonstrate differences doesn't mean you can automatically dismiss the whole study. Consider this: You have learned to touch type on a desktop computer keyboard. You then pick up a Blackberry with PKB. You lean to type on that pretty quickly. Later you pick up smartphone with touch screen and you start typing relatively quickly on the VKB. Why? Because of the Identical Elements on both. That is, the tasks have differences and similarities and the degree to how quickly you adjust (transfer of learning) represents how identical or different the tasks are. So it is not as simple as you make out, and there clearly are similarities.
    06-11-16 07:08 PM
  17. MikeX74's Avatar
    I couldn't take his post seriously as he speaks as though the iPad came before iPhone, LOL.
    It almost did.
    06-11-16 07:25 PM
  18. georgeeipi's Avatar
    Here is a link to a scholarly study showing significant error rate for "iPhone" compared to "hard-key mobile phone keypads"

    An In-Depth Look into the Text Entry User Experience on the iPhone

    The studies are there, but not easy to find.
    ...Now awaiting the "but it's not Android" blah blah...
    06-11-16 08:12 PM
  19. georgeeipi's Avatar
    and just to prove I take science seriously, here is a link to a study that found the complete opposite, touch screens are more accurate and less error prone:

    Open Access Dissertation - ProQuest

    So this second study goes against the theoretical expectations. How does good science handle this? If there are lots of studies, we do a meta-study (scan the literature and look for the trend). If there aren't many studies, then we need to replicate the experiments with odd results. Then if the phenomenon continues, development of a new theoretical framework is required and further testing until the new theory is understood well. If replication fails then the existing framework is stronger. But this all takes time.
    06-11-16 08:28 PM
  20. donnation's Avatar
    I like your post. Yes, I've had the same experience. However, you can never control "every" variable,,,,ever. If the audience of your research don't like your result they always find a difference. In one effectiveness study I ran (it wasn't typing) they even argued that the software had been updated, which it had but had nothing to do with the phenomenon we were testing. Nevertheless, they argued since the experiment (double blind control, with over 30 randomly selected participants) was run on a different system, the results didn't apply to their new system. So in the end, all you are left with is understanding principles and then inferring the outcome, otherwise your experiment goes out of date extremely quickly.

    In this case, it would be great if there was a research result that looked specifically at blackberry classic vs, say iOS 9.3. I would love that, but it isn't there. But let 's pretend for as minute we had that study. We could discuss that now. Then along comes iOS9.4 I would bet that there will be VKB supporters that would then say, your study is no longer relevant, it only applies to iOS9.3. How would we argue the case that the study does or does not hold? We would have to go back to the principles (and assumptions) upon which the original experiment was based to establish an expectation. The alternative is to run yet another experiment. But experiments are expensive and so it is unlikely to happen.
    In your example that just wouldn't hold water. We are comparing virtual vs physical. Software effectively doesn't matter because they the form of the medium you are typing on is effectively the same, in size and the way they are held and used. What matters is two completely different mediums used for typing on a phone vs a computer. They aren't remotely the same in size, method of typing (10 fingers vs 1 or 2), and position of use. So saying a study using a computer keyboard transfers to a phone keyboard won't work.

    Arguing software is a moot point in your example, it's the physical form that matters because the two mediums we are discussing are very different in the way typing is performed on them.
    06-11-16 08:32 PM
  21. georgeeipi's Avatar
    And here's a third example:

    http://www.yorku.ca/mack/ijvwhci2013.pdf

    If you admit there is a problem with VKBs ie the need to switch visual attention between the message and the keyboard, then you look for solutions. In this case they propose a 2x2 text entry system. However, if you stick your head in the sand like an ostrich and pretend there is no problem and that your favored system is the best in the world you miss opportunities.
    06-11-16 08:38 PM
  22. georgeeipi's Avatar
    In your example that just wouldn't hold water. We are comparing virtual vs physical. Software effectively doesn't matter because they the form of the medium you are typing on is effectively the same, in size and the way they are held and used. What matters is two completely different mediums used for typing on a phone vs a computer. They aren't remotely the same in size, method of typing (10 fingers vs 1 or 2), and position of use. So saying a study using a computer keyboard transfers to a phone keyboard won't work.

    Arguing software is a moot point in your example, it's the physical form that matters because the two mediums we are discussing are very different in the way typing is performed on them.
    Let me see if I understand your argument by analogy. Commercial pilots start learning to fly in light airplanes, little 2 seat aircraft. They do that so that they can fly wide-body jets that carry 400 passengers. But flying wide-body jets and 2 seat aircraft have nothing to do each other, so they are wasting their time, it is the 'physical form' that is important. Flying little airplanes just "'doesn't hold water".
    skstrials likes this.
    06-11-16 09:06 PM
  23. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Just for fun. Might stir up the pot. I was standing on a moving subway car and the girl standing next to me was typing like this:

    http://gizmodo.com/5493010/ridiculou...eyboard-haters
    06-11-16 09:30 PM
  24. georgeeipi's Avatar
    Just for fun. Might stir up the pot. I was standing on a moving subway car and the girl standing next to me was typing like this:

    Ridiculously Fast iPhone Typist Shames Soft Keyboard Haters
    Sure, that's impressive if the error count is low. But it does then raise the question of how much practise is required to compensate for deficiencies in the interface? So practise becomes another parameter that needs investigating and indeed there are people looking at that too. (no I don't have the citations off the top of my head; yes I've seen the papers, yes they are out there)
    skstrials likes this.
    06-11-16 09:52 PM
  25. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    OMG, if you want to continue your debate, please PM each other and leave this poor thread alone!!!!
    06-12-16 12:20 AM
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