06-12-16 12:52 AM
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  1. georgeeipi's Avatar
    Lol yes, an expected response from a older generation that is unable to cope with changing technology (hence the 9900). Keep up the great work grandpa!!
    Thanks for exposing your real motivation. Think about it one day should you be fortunate enough to reach your 80s
    dmlis likes this.
    06-10-16 10:42 AM
  2. donnation's Avatar
    Thanks for exposing your real motivation. Think about it one day should you be fortunate enough to reach your 80s
    I surely will friend.
    Ronindan likes this.
    06-10-16 10:44 AM
  3. Elephant_Canyon's Avatar
    A more specific citation,

    https://engineering.purdue.edu/~hong...Tan_HS2014.pdf

    But of course you can choose to ignore fundamental principles and experiments and point to minor discrepancies and demand yet another experiment.
    There are quite a number of problems with that study as it relates to a phone form factor. First of all, the study tested a traditional computer keyboard, which is an entirely different ergonomic configuration. Whereas the phone keyboard sits parallel to, and immediately below, the screen, the computer keyboard usually sits perpendicular to, and several inches from, the screen. Additionally, a computer keyboard is optimized for all ten fingers, whereas a phone keyboard assumes the use of only thumbs. So that study can't really translate to the ergonomics of using a phone touchscreen keyboard versus a hardware keyboard, since it's testing a completely different ergonomic paradigm (i.e. a computer keyboard sitting on a desk instead of a phone held in the hand or hands).

    Also, a sample size of twelve is hardly representative of the wider population.
    TgeekB and Tsepz_GP like this.
    06-10-16 11:07 AM
  4. katxeus's Avatar
    You've explained why the Priv doesn't sell, not why other OEMs don't make them. For there to be a demand for a PKB phone in the mass-market, it would take someone like Apple or Samsung making one.
    And I guess if the Rome comes to life, big OEMs like Samsung and LG may offer a line of phones with PKBs.

    Posted via CB10
    06-10-16 11:46 AM
  5. katxeus's Avatar
    Wow, I wish Blackberry could make one of those.

    Posted via CB10
    06-10-16 12:05 PM
  6. TgeekB's Avatar
    If you want an intro on the principles have a look at 'touch screens' in Wikipedia. They describe the fundamental accuracy problems associated with touch screens as well as attempts to use haptic interfaces to improve pointing accuracy. If you want more why not look at an ergonomics textbook that covers HCI.
    You won't find Wikipedia as a resource on most research papers.
    Tsepz_GP likes this.
    06-10-16 12:55 PM
  7. donnation's Avatar
    And I guess if the Rome comes to life, big OEMs like Samsung and LG may offer a line of phones with PKBs.

    Posted via CB10
    If it sells. I haven't seen any of the big Android makers lining up for a slider version of their phones.
    06-10-16 01:53 PM
  8. skstrials's Avatar
    I was hoping this thread would not turn into another pkb vs vkb debate.

    It is clear that pkb is superior as far as just typing is concerned. More accurate, and not having to look down the phone while typing is great too. It also does not rely on auto correct which is awesome for typing in person names, street names, addresses, numbers, codes, and abbreviations that cannot be predicted by the auto correct. If you have to regularly type foreign names for your work, the pkb is a God send.

    Having said that, the advantage of the vkb comes from the extra screen real estate. There are people whose productivity relies on viewing media and documents, rather than typing. For those, the extra screen size would be beneficial. But all vkb keyboards will require the user to look at the phone screen to make sure that they are typing correctly, whereas the pkb can be typed blind after some practice, which is nice for walking and keeping an eye contact all while typing.

    Both vkb and pkb phones can be good phones. If you are asking which is a superior keyboard, it would have to be the pkb.

    Posted via CB10
    idssteve likes this.
    06-10-16 02:24 PM
  9. idssteve's Avatar
    I was hoping this thread would not turn into another pkb vs vkb debate.

    It is clear that pkb is superior as far as just typing is concerned. More accurate, and not having to look down the phone while typing is great too. It also does not rely on auto correct which is awesome for typing in person names, street names, addresses, numbers, codes, and abbreviations that cannot be predicted by the auto correct. If you have to regularly type foreign names for your work, the pkb is a God send.

    Having said that, the advantage of the vkb comes from the extra screen real estate. There are people whose productivity relies on viewing media and documents, rather than typing. For those, the extra screen size would be beneficial. But all vkb keyboards will require the user to look at the phone screen to make sure that they are typing correctly, whereas the pkb can be typed blind after some practice, which is nice for walking and keeping an eye contact all while typing.

    Both vkb and pkb phones can be good phones. If you are asking which is a superior keyboard, it would have to be the pkb.

    Posted via CB10
    My office handles hundreds, sometimes thousands, of one off unique nomenclature & anagrams per day. Anything resembling "autocorrect" is a nightmare for us.
    skstrials likes this.
    06-10-16 03:14 PM
  10. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    Both vkb and pkb phones can be good phones. If you are asking which is a superior keyboard, it would have to be the pkb in my opinion.

    Posted via CB10
    FIFY.
    Millions of people using vkb would not accept your opinion as a conclusive end of the pkb v. vkb debate.

    Posted via the Diva's beautiful Red Passport!
    TgeekB and Tsepz_GP like this.
    06-10-16 03:15 PM
  11. donnation's Avatar
    I was hoping this thread would not turn into another pkb vs vkb debate.

    It is clear that pkb is superior as far as just typing is concerned. More accurate, and not having to look down the phone while typing is great too. It also does not rely on auto correct which is awesome for typing in person names, street names, addresses, numbers, codes, and abbreviations that cannot be predicted by the auto correct. If you have to regularly type foreign names for your work, the pkb is a God send.

    Having said that, the advantage of the vkb comes from the extra screen real estate. There are people whose productivity relies on viewing media and documents, rather than typing. For those, the extra screen size would be beneficial. But all vkb keyboards will require the user to look at the phone screen to make sure that they are typing correctly, whereas the pkb can be typed blind after some practice, which is nice for walking and keeping an eye contact all while typing.

    Both vkb and pkb phones can be good phones. If you are asking which is a superior keyboard, it would have to be the pkb.

    Posted via CB10
    It's interesting that this site is called CrackBerry which was was given to Blackberry users because they couldn't look up from their phones and were always on them. I guess that was all BS because everyone was always typing while not needing to look at their phone and really no one even knew they were on them because they were engaged in the world around them while they typed away. Give me a break. I've been and been around Blackberry users for years and they have their heads down looking at what they type the same as vkb users do. Can you press a quick button without looking, sure, but typing anything of meaning your head is down thinking about and paying attention to what you type.
    06-10-16 03:47 PM
  12. TgeekB's Avatar
    It's interesting that this site is called CrackBerry which was was given to Blackberry users because they couldn't look up from their phones and were always on them. I guess that was all BS because everyone was always typing while not needing to look at their phone and really no one even knew they were on them because they were engaged in the world around them while they typed away. Give me a break. I've been and been around Blackberry users for years and they have their heads down looking at what they type the same as vkb users do. Can you press a quick button without looking, sure, but typing anything of meaning your head is down thinking about and paying attention to what you type.
    I've never once looked at my Blackberry phone all these years. I can simply feel messages as they arrive with the keyboard.
    06-10-16 04:38 PM
  13. Elephant_Canyon's Avatar
    I've never once looked at my Blackberry phone all these years. I can simply feel messages as they arrive with the keyboard.
    You still need to feel them? Senses are overrated. The knowledge of what your messages contain should just arrive in your brain as soon as your phone receives them.
    TgeekB, Ronindan and JeepBB like this.
    06-10-16 04:47 PM
  14. skstrials's Avatar
    It's interesting that this site is called CrackBerry which was was given to Blackberry users because they couldn't look up from their phones and were always on them. I guess that was all BS because everyone was always typing while not needing to look at their phone and really no one even knew they were on them because they were engaged in the world around them while they typed away. Give me a break. I've been and been around Blackberry users for years and they have their heads down looking at what they type the same as vkb users do. Can you press a quick button without looking, sure, but typing anything of meaning your head is down thinking about and paying attention to what you type.
    The difference is that with practice, it is possible to not look down and type with a pkb. With a vkb, no amount of practice will enable you to type without looking down since there is no tactile guidance reference to know where your thumb is like on pkbs.

    Posted via CB10
    06-10-16 05:17 PM
  15. georgeeipi's Avatar
    There are quite a number of problems with that study as it relates to a phone form factor. First of all, the study tested a traditional computer keyboard, which is an entirely different ergonomic configuration. Whereas the phone keyboard sits parallel to, and immediately below, the screen, the computer keyboard usually sits perpendicular to, and several inches from, the screen. Additionally, a computer keyboard is optimized for all ten fingers, whereas a phone keyboard assumes the use of only thumbs. So that study can't really translate to the ergonomics of using a phone touchscreen keyboard versus a hardware keyboard, since it's testing a completely different ergonomic paradigm (i.e. a computer keyboard sitting on a desk instead of a phone held in the hand or hands).

    Also, a sample size of twelve is hardly representative of the wider population.
    Thank you for that critique. Wouldn't it be great if we could find a university study that had evaluated a blackberry against say a Samsung. Then you would say that it only applies to samsungs, and not to Apple 6s. And if we used 30 subjects you would ask for 60. And if it was only 2 studies you would want 100 studies. And if the subjects were seated you would ask about standing.

    All valid, points, and guess what, that is the limitation of the scientific method. I found a study for you and you find reasons to reject it. I could find more and if you are not serious about trying to understand the underlying principles you will reject those too. Even Einstein's relativity theory was rejected at the start in the same way.

    The point is that all ergonomic studies show the same thing and for good reasons, and that is closing the control loop between eyes and fingers is slower than closing the loop between touch and fingers. Nothing to do with sitting standing driving juggling. The pathway through the body is longer and so slower if it has to go from eyes to fingers than through the reflex system. Slower neural pathways means performance is worse and so you can try to push the speed up without tactile feedback, but you will get more errors. Or you can try to reduce the errors and you will be slower. You can put in predictive error correction, but then you could do that with the tactile keyboard too. You can try to make the touch screen keys bigger, but then you have to move your fingers further, and then you have Fitts law problems.

    The point is the scientific principles point to tactile feedback improve performance.


    Anyway, what would I know, I 'm just an old fart, as someone else implied--now apparently that's a more rock solid argument on this forum than a scientific principled approach. What a pity.
    dmlis likes this.
    06-10-16 05:19 PM
  16. qwerty4ever's Avatar
    Without a physical keyboard I would not be using a smartphone. the BlackBerry Z10 hurt my fingers being an all-touch device.

    BlackBerry Priv with CrackBerry App for Android
    06-10-16 09:26 PM
  17. kbz1960's Avatar
    Without a physical keyboard I would not be using a smartphone. the BlackBerry Z10 hurt my fingers being an all-touch device.

    BlackBerry Priv with CrackBerry App for Android
    Maybe because you were trying for a tactical feeling on glass. Otherwise I don't know how it would make anyone's fingers hurt.
    06-10-16 10:46 PM
  18. nycspaces.'s Avatar
    Sadly no one has actually made a great pkb phone that truly tests the creation vs consumption reality. BBRY got stuck on a 1x1 screen, i suspect because they were messaging-centric and rationalized that a square screen was the same as a vertical screen with the vkb in use - but missed the consumption oriented aspects of most consumers at the same time being a little blind to the app-gap as those products rolled.

    Rome, if it ever launches, could finally test whether there is a reasonable marketplace for pkb with a decent sized screen that can be used horizontally for consumption modes and still excel for content creation while actually providing all of the important apps. It seems that the smaller sized vertical screen must have tested well with apple and Samsung both releasing smaller sized phones in conjunction with their phablet sized offerings. not sure how those have sold?

    I still love my Classic and even went back to it after using the Priv for a couple months but reluctantly have switched back to the Priv for the apps and enjoying a larger screen. If Rome has a high quality (9900 or Classic) level keyboard and can provide a decent screen with a media friendly ratio on an os that is supported by the development community we will finally see if there is a consumer market for pkb devices.

    Done right it could define a niche but important segment of the market. 1x1 ratio clearly didn't excite, even when super-sized on the Passport it failed, essentially Rome is a PP on diet without the stupid 3 row keyboard. Priv comes close; but really isn't pocketable unless you wear a suit jacket, the pkb on the Priv is ok but not great except for the swipe/prediction features which are amazing, personally i don't need such a large screen but would prefer to have the 3:2 or even a 4:3 ratio for certain content content like video or actually reading some detailed docs without my eyes bleeding. Either way if they could nail form factor and feel of the pkb it will really be the first optimized offering that could even introduce some or bring back many who appreciate or need a pkb for complex and detailed communications without typos or auto-correct mistakes.

    On the Priv i use the VKB for quick and minimal text entry but love slapping out the pkb for long, detailed or complex emails on the fly. As long as there are pkb devices i will use them.
    06-11-16 12:01 AM
  19. Elephant_Canyon's Avatar
    Thank you for that critique. Wouldn't it be great if we could find a university study that had evaluated a blackberry against say a Samsung. Then you would say that it only applies to samsungs, and not to Apple 6s. And if we used 30 subjects you would ask for 60. And if it was only 2 studies you would want 100 studies. And if the subjects were seated you would ask about standing.

    All valid, points, and guess what, that is the limitation of the scientific method. I found a study for you and you find reasons to reject it. I could find more and if you are not serious about trying to understand the underlying principles you will reject those too. Even Einstein's relativity theory was rejected at the start in the same way.
    You said a lot of words, but you didn't actually answer any of the criticisms provided. All you did was hand-wave them away. Here's a two-part exercise to demonstrate why that study has no bearing on smartphones:
    Part 1: Go get a standard mechanical computer keyboard. Now, hold it in both hands and try to type something. You won't have an easy time of it.
    Part 2: Find a Priv (or Passport, or Classic, or Bold, or any other phone available to you that has a hardware keyboard). Place it on a flat surface, and try to touch type using all ten fingers, as you would on a computer keyboard. Probably less difficult than Part 1, but still not fast or accurate.

    The point is that all ergonomic studies show the same thing and for good reasons, and that is closing the control loop between eyes and fingers is slower than closing the loop between touch and fingers. Nothing to do with sitting standing driving juggling. The pathway through the body is longer and so slower if it has to go from eyes to fingers than through the reflex system. Slower neural pathways means performance is worse and so you can try to push the speed up without tactile feedback, but you will get more errors. Or you can try to reduce the errors and you will be slower. You can put in predictive error correction, but then you could do that with the tactile keyboard too. You can try to make the touch screen keys bigger, but then you have to move your fingers further, and then you have Fitts law problems.

    The point is the scientific principles point to tactile feedback improve performance.
    And you still have yet to cite even one study that demonstrates that this is more than an insignificant problem for smartphone users.
    Ronindan likes this.
    06-11-16 08:41 AM
  20. georgeeipi's Avatar
    You said a lot of words, but you didn't actually answer any of the criticisms provided. All you did was hand-wave them away. Here's a two-part exercise to demonstrate why that study has no bearing on smartphones:
    Part 1: Go get a standard mechanical computer keyboard. Now, hold it in both hands and try to type something. You won't have an easy time of it.
    Part 2: Find a Priv (or Passport, or Classic, or Bold, or any other phone available to you that has a hardware keyboard). Place it on a flat surface, and try to touch type using all ten fingers, as you would on a computer keyboard. Probably less difficult than Part 1, but still not fast or accurate.


    And you still have yet to cite even one study that demonstrates that this is more than an insignificant problem for smartphone users.
    Why don't you read the intro of that paper again, the researchers at Purdue university think they are addressing the question of smartphones virtual keyboards, they say so in the intro. Why? Because the principles are common to both tasks. Even though you can't touch type with ten fingers on a smart phone PKB you can touch type with two. So what are you suggesting? That tactile feedback makes no difference for two finger touch typing? Well that's an interesting hypothesis that would violate existing ergonomic principles. Have you cited a paper that demonstrates your hypothesis?
    skstrials likes this.
    06-11-16 09:37 AM
  21. donnation's Avatar
    Why don't you read the intro of that paper again, the researchers at Purdue university think they are addressing the question of smartphones virtual keyboards, they say so in the intro. Why? Because the principles are common to both tasks. Even though you can't touch type with ten fingers on a smart phone PKB you can touch type with two. So what are you suggesting? That tactile feedback makes no difference for two finger touch typing? Well that's an interesting hypothesis that would violate existing ergonomic principles. Have you cited a paper that demonstrates your hypothesis?
    He's actually discussing the point that I brought up with you earlier. Typing on a full keyboard on a flat surface is different than typing on a phone that you are holding with one or two hands. They aren't comparable. You are making the argument that since one method is superior (computer physical keyboard) that it also applies to smartphones. Size and position of the keyboard matter and being able to hold a smartphone and type well on a physical keyboard doesn't really translate to being superior when discussing a computer keyboard, at least in my humble opinion.
    06-11-16 09:58 AM
  22. CivilDissident's Avatar
    Most phone users have never used a PKB and never will. BlackBerry must get back former owners and go from there. They could advertise just the PKB. They need better pricing in places like Indonesia.

    Posted via CB10
    This is insinuating that "most phone users" have the collective age of 10, as a decade ago MOST of us used devices with PKBs which were standard on mobile devices near and far... Now there were some early entry 'all touch devices' that pioneered the future. IBM's Simon for example, as well as the Sony Ericsson P800 for early pre-Iphone PKB-less devices... And an honorable mention to the Ericsson R380 which was uniquely innovative on its own, but otherwise, it wasn't until 2007 when the original iPhone debuted that all touch took a firm hold... So the statement quoted is irrelevant as far as 'most phone users NEVER using a PKB'...


    Posted via CB10
    06-11-16 10:39 AM
  23. georgeeipi's Avatar
    He's actually discussing the point that I brought up with you earlier. Typing on a full keyboard on a flat surface is different than typing on a phone that you are holding with one or two hands. They aren't comparable. You are making the argument that since one method is superior (computer physical keyboard) that it also applies to smartphones. Size and position of the keyboard matter and being able to hold a smartphone and type well on a physical keyboard doesn't really translate to being superior when discussing a computer keyboard, at least in my humble opinion.
    You seem to be focusing on the differences in the tasks and ignoring the commonalities. Certainly there are differences between 10 finger touch typing and typing on a PKB. The Purdue study though focuses on the effect of tactile feedback. So they keep everything constant and insert or remove tactile feedback. The result shows a clear benefit of tactile feedback. Now you raise a valid point that their keyboard is not exactly the same as a smartphone keyboard. Ok.

    However, it is a reasonable expectation given what we know of human physiology and control systems that the result of tactile feedback from the Purdue study should translate over to a smart phone as well. I don't claim this as 'proof ' (there is no such thing as proof in science, only induction--- the sun rose yesterday so I expect it to rise again tomorrow) . So a similar study to the Purdue study but using smartphone size keys would be great-- but I don't know of one off hand, but there is an opportunity for a masters thesis if anyone wants to do that. However the lack of such a study does not negate the expectation.
    skstrials likes this.
    06-11-16 10:54 AM
  24. donnation's Avatar
    You seem to be focusing on the differences in the tasks and ignoring the commonalities. Certainly there are differences between 10 finger touch typing and typing on a PKB. The Purdue study though focuses on the effect of tactile feedback. So they keep everything constant and insert or remove tactile feedback. The result shows a clear benefit of tactile feedback. Now you raise a valid point that their keyboard is not exactly the same as a smartphone keyboard. Ok.

    However, it is a reasonable expectation given what we know of human physiology and control systems that the result of tactile feedback from the Purdue study should translate over to a smart phone as well. I don't claim this as 'proof ' (there is no such thing as proof in science, only induction--- the sun rose yesterday so I expect it to rise again tomorrow) . So a similar study to the Purdue study but using smartphone size keys would be great-- but I don't know of one off hand, but there is an opportunity for a masters thesis if anyone wants to do that. However the lack of such a study does not negate the expectation.
    The lack of a study doesn't negate the expectation, but it also does not make it proof positive as you've stated in your earlier threads. I deal with studies on a daily basis and any time I present one I can't say "Well this happened when we did this, and although this is a different variable or control we can expect the same outcome." Evidence supporting every variable is the only thing that carries water, at least in my line of work. I can't make the statement that "the reasonable expectation would be..." Because the response I would get is "Do the study with that control and show me the outcome, otherwise its just hearsay."
    Elephant_Canyon likes this.
    06-11-16 11:31 AM
  25. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Sadly no one has actually made a great pkb phone that truly tests the creation vs consumption reality. BBRY got stuck on a 1x1 screen, i suspect because they were messaging-centric and rationalized that a square screen was the same as a vertical screen with the vkb in use - but missed the consumption oriented aspects of most consumers at the same time being a little blind to the app-gap as those products rolled.

    Rome, if it ever launches, could finally test whether there is a reasonable marketplace for pkb with a decent sized screen that can be used horizontally for consumption modes and still excel for content creation while actually providing all of the important apps. It seems that the smaller sized vertical screen must have tested well with apple and Samsung both releasing smaller sized phones in conjunction with their phablet sized offerings. not sure how those have sold?

    I still love my Classic and even went back to it after using the Priv for a couple months but reluctantly have switched back to the Priv for the apps and enjoying a larger screen. If Rome has a high quality (9900 or Classic) level keyboard and can provide a decent screen with a media friendly ratio on an os that is supported by the development community we will finally see if there is a consumer market for pkb devices.

    Done right it could define a niche but important segment of the market. 1x1 ratio clearly didn't excite, even when super-sized on the Passport it failed, essentially Rome is a PP on diet without the stupid 3 row keyboard. Priv comes close; but really isn't pocketable unless you wear a suit jacket, the pkb on the Priv is ok but not great except for the swipe/prediction features which are amazing, personally i don't need such a large screen but would prefer to have the 3:2 or even a 4:3 ratio for certain content content like video or actually reading some detailed docs without my eyes bleeding. Either way if they could nail form factor and feel of the pkb it will really be the first optimized offering that could even introduce some or bring back many who appreciate or need a pkb for complex and detailed communications without typos or auto-correct mistakes.

    On the Priv i use the VKB for quick and minimal text entry but love slapping out the pkb for long, detailed or complex emails on the fly. As long as there are pkb devices i will use them.
    Excellent post. The 1x1 screen was was an impediment to good design . Many users want a pocketable phone that would be no wider than a Classic. I hope too that there is a mini Rome that uses the 9900 keyboard and Trackpad or is at least no wider than the 9900 or Q10.
    06-11-16 11:40 AM
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