07-22-13 06:51 AM
39 12
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  1. monil11's Avatar
    I feel like Im going to get a lot of hate from some of the posters but here is a genuine opinion of a loyal BB user.

    Please note that even where I may have not specified, Im only talking bout the Nokia LUMIA line and not their entire portfolio of phones.

    Regardless of what this website would like us to believe I have a bad feeling that BlackBerry is going to stay in the fourth place for a while. Nokia Lumia devices which account for most of WP devices look like they have easily secured the 3rd place. (Therefore putting WP in 3rd place) . They have been clawing their way back to relevance for a while now just like bb. The difference however is that they have many Lumia devices which hit almost every price point.

    Their ecosystem (WP) looks stronger at this point with more apps all of which are native. They have big brother Microsoft throwing money at them every quarter. They have in my opinion a truly different OS which is refreshing after looking at iOS and android (BB10 is truly different too in my opinion). They build great hardware which can take a lot of beating.

    They innovate a lot with hardware. Pure view, Pure Motion HD, are just a couple of hardware advancements. I don't think we will see such hardware innovation from BlackBerry in near future.

    Their mini ecosystem is really really strong within the WP ecosystem. 'Here' services, Nokia music and tons of exclusive apps make them attractive.

    However the very very very important difference between the two is execution. Because of the experience I've had with both Nokia Lumia (920) and BB10 (currently using Z10), it seems like with every announcement BlackBerry makes I doubt if it will actually deliver and also if it will deliver up to the expectation. With Nokia we don't have to worry much. They deliver and that too at a rapid pace with no broken promises as far as Lumia line is concerned.

    Now for what Blackberry does better

    1. HUB - far superior to anything WP has
    2. BBM - not going to be available to WP upon cross platform release
    3. Gestures - some like them, some dont. I love them.
    4. Side loading - there is absolutely NOTHING on Nokia Lumia or WP in general to satisfy my inner geek. Side loading on BB gives me hope and excitement and not to forget some amount of freedom.

    However, everything that BB does better in the list above is not even close to being a deal maker or breaker for an average user today. I love BB but sadly I see Nokia out performing BB in terms of innovation and device sales for the near future. Would love to hear everyone else's opinions of this matter.
    Amy wineBerry likes this.
    07-18-13 08:40 PM
  2. MasterOfBinary's Avatar
    Agree. It seems BB10 has no "wow" factor right now. I'm hoping 10.2 is really sick and blows people away but so far there isn't really a good reason for anyone to come.
    monil11, Amy wineBerry and nquyen like this.
    07-18-13 08:58 PM
  3. iN8ter's Avatar
    Now for what Blackberry does better

    1. HUB - far superior to anything WP has
    2. BBM - not going to be available to WP upon cross platform release
    3. Gestures - some like them, some dont. I love them.
    4. Side loading - there is absolutely NOTHING on Nokia Lumia or WP in general to satisfy my inner geek. Side loading on BB gives me hope and excitement and not to forget some amount of freedom.

    However, everything that BB does better in the list above is not even close to being a deal maker or breaker for an average user today. I love BB but sadly I see Nokia out performing BB in terms of innovation and device sales for the near future. Would love to hear everyone else's opinions of this matter.
    1. Windows Phone has had Hubs since release, but they are organized better than the Hub in Blackberry. Personally, I give it the nod for that reason. Blackberry does Notifications better than Windows Phone, though. Windows Phone integrates services at the band-end level, which is superior to Blackberry's on-device service integration, also more robust.

    2. Windows Phone Launched with FBC and WLM in the Messaging Hub. Microsoft is moving to Skype in the future. I think Skype covers all that, and more people use it than BBM these days. I call this more of a wash. Microsoft uses the more accessible (and generally more useful due to reach) service, BBM uses an arguably superior messaging platform, but it will still be inaccessible to a ton of users who do not use supported OSes (or OS versions, potentially) now and in the future.

    3. The Gestures are nice, but they are not intuitive. Even I had no clue how to use the phone when I tried to play with one in the AT&T store. All OSes have Gestures now, they are just used differently. I applaud them for going for something different, but I don't necessarily think it works great. That is my opinion. Seems like complication for the sake of being complicated.

    4. Windows Phone was designed to not be geeky. It's designed to just work and work well, be stable/robust, and be performant. Also, prolific sideloading and sideloading capability is a detractor to developers who develop paid apps. There is always the chance that your app will be cracked and loaded onto some 3rd party website or app market for free, or someone else's profit. Developers are free to make money and feel secure in their investments, no?
    anon1727506 likes this.
    07-19-13 12:01 AM
  4. QuickDime's Avatar
    Still never seen a Windows Phone in the wild here in Canada! I think their next few quarters are just as Vital for them as it is for BlackBerry!

    But I'm not nieve Windows seems to be making head way in the U.S. But the war isn't over yet!

    Swiped On My Zed10
    07-19-13 12:08 AM
  5. Amy wineBerry's Avatar
    BlackBerry is offering nothing strong enough to offset it's reputation. It seems at some point, Nokia had many of the same issues. Then, it stepped away from the OS software arena, focusing on hardware. The software it does produce is on a smaller scale but gives them something extra to offer.

    I wonder if hardware and software development has gotten to be too much for BlackBerry to manage. It can still offer BES and BBM, but it may be time to let the OS go. And it breaks my heart to say that...

    Posted via CB10
    07-19-13 01:03 AM
  6. birdman_38's Avatar
    I wonder if hardware and software development has gotten to be too much for BlackBerry to manage. It can still offer BES and BBM, but it may be time to let the OS go. And it breaks my heart to say that...
    The hardware will go before the OS.
    07-19-13 01:27 AM
  7. Amy wineBerry's Avatar
    The hardware will go before the OS.
    You think so? You think BlackBerry can get another manufacturer on board with the OS?

    Posted via CB10
    07-19-13 01:38 AM
  8. --TommesJay--'s Avatar
    1. Windows Phone has had Hubs since release, but they are organized better than the Hub in Blackberry. Personally, I give it the nod for that reason. Blackberry does Notifications better than Windows Phone, though. Windows Phone integrates services at the band-end level, which is superior to Blackberry's on-device service integration, also more robust.

    2. Windows Phone Launched with FBC and WLM in the Messaging Hub. Microsoft is moving to Skype in the future. I think Skype covers all that, and more people use it than BBM these days. I call this more of a wash. Microsoft uses the more accessible (and generally more useful due to reach) service, BBM uses an arguably superior messaging platform, but it will still be inaccessible to a ton of users who do not use supported OSes (or OS versions, potentially) now and in the future.

    3. The Gestures are nice, but they are not intuitive. Even I had no clue how to use the phone when I tried to play with one in the AT&T store. All OSes have Gestures now, they are just used differently. I applaud them for going for something different, but I don't necessarily think it works great. That is my opinion. Seems like complication for the sake of being complicated.

    4. Windows Phone was designed to not be geeky. It's designed to just work and work well, be stable/robust, and be performant. Also, prolific sideloading and sideloading capability is a detractor to developers who develop paid apps. There is always the chance that your app will be cracked and loaded onto some 3rd party website or app market for free, or someone else's profit. Developers are free to make money and feel secure in their investments, no?
    1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the HUB concept in WP is totally different. Their setup is optional and is people-centric. IMO that's just outright confusing and can't be comapared to the BlackBerry HUB at all.

    Posted via CB10
    monil11 likes this.
    07-19-13 02:42 AM
  9. monil11's Avatar
    1. Windows Phone has had Hubs since release, but they are organized better than the Hub in Blackberry. Personally, I give it the nod for that reason. Blackberry does Notifications better than Windows Phone, though. Windows Phone integrates services at the band-end level, which is superior to Blackberry's on-device service integration, also more robust.

    2. Windows Phone Launched with FBC and WLM in the Messaging Hub. Microsoft is moving to Skype in the future. I think Skype covers all that, and more people use it than BBM these days. I call this more of a wash. Microsoft uses the more accessible (and generally more useful due to reach) service, BBM uses an arguably superior messaging platform, but it will still be inaccessible to a ton of users who do not use supported OSes (or OS versions, potentially) now and in the future.

    3. The Gestures are nice, but they are not intuitive. Even I had no clue how to use the phone when I tried to play with one in the AT&T store. All OSes have Gestures now, they are just used differently. I applaud them for going for something different, but I don't necessarily think it works great. That is my opinion. Seems like complication for the sake of being complicated.

    4. Windows Phone was designed to not be geeky. It's designed to just work and work well, be stable/robust, and be performant. Also, prolific sideloading and sideloading capability is a detractor to developers who develop paid apps. There is always the chance that your app will be cracked and loaded onto some 3rd party website or app market for free, or someone else's profit. Developers are free to make money and feel secure in their investments, no?
    I don't think I was trying to defend anyone when I made those 4 points about what BlackBerry does better. I was just stating what I thought BlackBerry does better. But since this looks like a competition now, here goes.

    1. Windows phone people hub and BlackBerry Hub are different, very different. People don't confuse the same word for same feature here. Most analyst, reviewers and critics point out BlackBerry Hub is superior to anything else out there.

    2. Ur naming different messaging services. I understand all that. My point is still valid. BBM is superior in messeging and you seem to agree too. Besides bbm should be out on iOS and Android soon. J

    3. Read the OP. I clearly mention some don't like it. Didn't see the need for a rebuttle.

    4. Every other major platform provides for side loading iOS through cydia, Android and BlackBerry. I understand what u say bout devs, and I agree that we need to support them, but does that mean I kill the geek in me? Nope. I like the idea of some freedom and to me WP doesn't provide that.

    Now if you read my op you'll see that I mention that none of the above are deal breakers for average users. I still stand by that. Therefore I was a little surprised to see this retaliation to fairly simple points I made about what most agree BlackBerry does better. (gestures are personal preference and side loading is a fact)

    Unless you belive that WP does EVERYTHING better than BlackBerry.

    Posted via CB10
    07-19-13 07:23 AM
  10. UnlimitedEra's Avatar
    Nokia is just better in camera and not entirely just in low light pics....

    And I've been a WP user since 6.1 to 7 and 8, it was complicated at first but now WP has the modern UI but sadly with no notification... Even the thing that MC originated which is the live tiles blackberry ruled it hard, even multitasking is weird in WP, but for the 3rd party apps, they got nothing they don't really have native apps like instagram, they have 3rd party services that might be removed like instance... But for blackberry, most of the developers mention BB10 first and not WP in order of priority meaning BB is already in the 3rd place and not WP



    Sent from my White BlackBerry STL100-02 Z10 running 10.1.0.4543 on Etisalat using Tapatalk 2!
    07-19-13 07:28 AM
  11. JasW's Avatar
    I'm hoping 10.2 is really sick and blows people away
    This is the same kind of thing we would hear on CB about PB OS 2.0, and then 2.1. When will people wake up and smell the lack of competence?

    In any event, WP and BB is strictly a battle for primacy in the "Other" category -- as in Android has 51% percent of the market in the US, iOS has 44%, and then there's "Other." That's not going to change unless one of them gets closer to 10% of the market share -- which doesn't seem like it's going to happen. I'm not even sure BB will ever get back above 1% of the US market -- those non-BES legacy users whose 2 year contracts for their 9900s or 9810s will be running out starting next month are highly unlikely to stick with BB.
    JeepBB and monil11 like this.
    07-19-13 07:48 AM
  12. 12Danny123's Avatar
    Nokia is just better in camera and not entirely just in low light pics....

    And I've been a WP user since 6.1 to 7 and 8, it was complicated at first but now WP has the modern UI but sadly with no notification... Even the thing that MC originated which is the live tiles blackberry ruled it hard, even multitasking is weird in WP, but for the 3rd party apps, they got nothing they don't really have native apps like instagram, they have 3rd party services that might be removed like instance... But for blackberry, most of the developers mention BB10 first and not WP in order of priority meaning BB is already in the 3rd place and not WP



    Sent from my White BlackBerry STL100-02 Z10 running 10.1.0.4543 on Etisalat using Tapatalk 2!
    Umm how do developers mention BB but their apps turn up on WP first it doesn't really matter what developers mention first its about getting there firstr and clearly WP has more official apps at the moment

    Sent using my Z10
    07-19-13 07:49 AM
  13. Canuck671's Avatar
    I love the Nokia line of lumina phones. But for one thing. Windows. Great for my laptop, but I find that the phone os is somewhat lacking. IMHO.

    Posted via CB10
    07-19-13 08:01 AM
  14. monil11's Avatar
    Nokia is just better in camera and not entirely just in low light pics....

    And I've been a WP user since 6.1 to 7 and 8, it was complicated at first but now WP has the modern UI but sadly with no notification... Even the thing that MC originated which is the live tiles blackberry ruled it hard, even multitasking is weird in WP, but for the 3rd party apps, they got nothing they don't really have native apps like instagram, they have 3rd party services that might be removed like instance... But for blackberry, most of the developers mention BB10 first and not WP in order of priority meaning BB is already in the 3rd place and not WP



    Sent from my White BlackBerry STL100-02 Z10 running 10.1.0.4543 on Etisalat using Tapatalk 2!
    I agree with most of what you said except the apps part. I think priority wise both platforms must be more or less the same. But WP has ALL native apps, more official apps and more apps period. This could change based on adoption rates. But microsoft has deep pockets to lure devs.

    Posted via CB10
    07-19-13 08:03 AM
  15. sleepngbear's Avatar
    I'm a big time BlackBerry fan and I've been a steadfast defender of the brand. But the numbers don't lie -- Nokia with WP is simply outperforming BlackBerry in the market right now. And M$ has a hell of a lot more resources at its disposal to keep pushing the fight. However I still believe that BB10 is the better platform, and I'm holding out hope that BB's weak quarter will be attributed to the newness of the platform, the staggered rollout, and the still incomplete lineup of devices. Heins' own admission that the BB10 platform rollout could have been handled better doesn't do much to instill confidence, either. But BB is still my brand of choice, and I'm remaining hopeful that it will be around for awhile longer.
    Prince_Poppycock likes this.
    07-19-13 08:16 AM
  16. anon1727506's Avatar
    They are ahead because they have been working harder and faster.

    Also there is a lot more talent, experience and money behind Window Phone 8. Microsoft knows software and Nokia knows phone hardware - both of them know that this is a do or die situation. Nokia won't be around very long if they aren't successful and even Microsoft knows that the lines are blurring between desktops and mobile devices.

    Microsoft is also VERY good at coming late to party, making a little different product, promoting it, including it in with other existing products that are popular and finding the right price point to make it successful.

    I agree with the OP that BB10 is different and it makes a very good communications tool. If that were all anyone were looking for than I think it has a bright future.



    Sadly if you are a Geek, there is another platform that is much more appealing to Geeks - deeper device settings, direct access to more apps, BETTER hardware, Rooting...

    Sadly if you want a social device that will play the latest games with your friends - BB ain't it.

    Sadly if you want a device with access to a huge catalog of content with a way to easily organize and control that content - BB ain't it.

    One good thing, Windows Phone 8 isn't it either...
    Last edited by scalemaster34; 07-19-13 at 01:01 PM.
    monil11 and JasW like this.
    07-19-13 08:20 AM
  17. monil11's Avatar
    They are ahead because they have been working harder and faster.

    Also there is a lot more talent, experience and money behind Window Phone 8. Microsoft knows software and Nokia knows phone hardware - both of them know that this is a do or die situation. Nokia won't be around very long if they aren't successful and even Microsoft knows that the lines are blurring between desktops and mobile devices.

    Microsoft is also VERY good at coming late to party, making a little different product, promoting it, including it in with other existing products that are popular and finding the right price point to make it successful.

    I agree with the OP that BB10 is different and it makes a very good communications tool. If that were all anyone were looking for than I think it has a bright future.



    Sadly if you are a Geek, there is another platform that is much more appealing to Geeks - deeper device settings, direct access to more apps, BETTER hardware, Rooting...

    Sadly if you want a social device that will play the latest games with your friends - BB ain't it.

    Sadly if you want a device with access to a huge catalog of content with a way to easily organize and control that content - BB ain't it.

    One good thing, Windows Phone 8 is it either...
    Completely agree with you. And to satisfy any of those needs that BlackBerry doesn't satisfy, there is Android as you hint. I think Google has it best on terms of being flexible, open and widely backed. They have chosen the route which no other OS has chosen (the open route) and it seems to be paying off. However with privacy becoming a bigger concern by the day I think BlackBerry has some sort of an opening. And they really need to make use of this opportunity to present it's strong position in security and privacy. The problem is that most average users aren't aware enough to be worried. And many of those who are aware see it as an opportunity cost against all good things Android.


    I would love to see BlackBerry succeed but I don't think incremental updates to bb10 along with their poor marketing will make any dent.



    Posted via CB10
    07-19-13 09:43 AM
  18. pantlesspenguin's Avatar
    I have to admit, I'm really intrigued at the Lumia 521 on T-Mo. $150 full retail price???? That's pretty dang rad. No, the phone won't "wow" anyone on specs, but you have to admit it would make a great starter phone for the WP platform. Anyone who's curious about the platform can dip their toes in the WP water without a huge investment. Then if they end up liking the device they can see into getting their high end offerings.
    07-19-13 09:45 AM
  19. MasterOfBinary's Avatar
    This is the same kind of thing we would hear on CB about PB OS 2.0, and then 2.1. When will people wake up and smell the lack of competence?
    Notice how "hope" is different than "think it will happen".

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9320 using Tapatalk
    07-19-13 09:50 AM
  20. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    You think so? You think BlackBerry can get another manufacturer on board with the OS?

    Posted via CB10
    I don't know how well this approach would work in practice. With Android being "free" to license, I think they wouldn't get much push. This is a similar problem to what Windows Phone has. Yes, HTC, Samsung, Huwei etc technically make Windows Phones. How many do they actually sell? How much effort do they put behind them to market them etc. They push Android first every time.

    Nokia is the one exception and has 80+ % of that market because they don't make Android phones. If OEM partners aren't embracing Microsoft, I don't think they'll embrace BlackBerry either.

    Also, this would have to be a new area that BlackBerry would need to build out. Microsoft has decades of experience in OEM partner management going back to the day of MS DOS. It's picking a fight with Microsoft in an area of strength for them. They have the experience, systems and processes in managing hardware partners more than BlackBerry. BlackBerry's partner management has mostly been around managing carrier partners.
    Last edited by RubberChicken76; 07-19-13 at 10:05 AM.
    app_Developer likes this.
    07-19-13 09:50 AM
  21. UnlimitedEra's Avatar
    I like bb10 how it is now, I just want more gestures, I don't like having my home screen containing only boxes with some fade effects, that's why I prefer BB10

    Sent from my White BlackBerry STL100-02 Z10 running 10.1.0.4543 on Etisalat using Tapatalk 2!
    07-19-13 10:47 AM
  22. eggman1987's Avatar
    I like bb10 how it is now, I just want more gestures, I don't like having my home screen containing only boxes with some fade effects, that's why I prefer BB10

    Sent from my White BlackBerry STL100-02 Z10 running 10.1.0.4543 on Etisalat using Tapatalk 2!
    What?

    Posted via CB10
    07-19-13 12:22 PM
  23. anon1727506's Avatar
    Completely agree with you. And to satisfy any of those needs that BlackBerry doesn't satisfy, there is Android as you hint. I think Google has it best on terms of being flexible, open and widely backed. They have chosen the route which no other OS has chosen (the open route) and it seems to be paying off. However with privacy becoming a bigger concern by the day I think BlackBerry has some sort of an opening. And they really need to make use of this opportunity to present it's strong position in security and privacy. The problem is that most average users aren't aware enough to be worried. And many of those who are aware see it as an opportunity cost against all good things Android.
    Posted via CB10
    What is secure and private about a BB10 device that isn't on BES?
    07-19-13 01:03 PM
  24. bp3dots's Avatar
    Completely agree with you. And to satisfy any of those needs that BlackBerry doesn't satisfy, there is Android as you hint. I think Google has it best on terms of being flexible, open and widely backed. They have chosen the route which no other OS has chosen (the open route) and it seems to be paying off. However with privacy becoming a bigger concern by the day I think BlackBerry has some sort of an opening. And they really need to make use of this opportunity to present it's strong position in security and privacy. The problem is that most average users aren't aware enough to be worried. And many of those who are aware see it as an opportunity cost against all good things Android.

    I would love to see BlackBerry succeed but I don't think incremental updates to bb10 along with their poor marketing will make any dent. Posted via CB10
    Problem is, those other companies know its an opportunity and are working to fix it. More and more, they are getting certified to use for governments and secure businesses. BB can't sit long on this feature.
    07-19-13 01:28 PM
  25. monil11's Avatar
    What is secure and private about a BB10 device that isn't on BES?
    Im no security expert but I know that BBM still goes through BB servers and hasnt been intercepted till date as it is end to end encrypted. Also I dont remember any case of having a Virus on a BB10 device. BB was not involved in the whole PRISM thing. One can argue that they are not significant enough in the US to be involved but either way Im happy without having to worry about personal info being given out. There is nothing that has made anyone doubt the security and privacy on a BB10 device.
    07-19-13 04:29 PM
39 12

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