02-08-14 01:31 AM
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  1. tinochiko's Avatar
    For the whole 2013 you mean not just a quarter. I didn't think there was anything else to address, you are entitled to your opinion

    Wait what? BB10 never outsold BBOS yet, it's the other way around.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Thanks for the correction
    Why does OS7 continue to outsell BB10?-img_20140129_161636.png

    Are you going to accept that price and perception of the device are bigger factors to the topic in question than features..?

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    01-29-14 10:17 AM
  2. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Currently 3 to 1. Considering the BBOS sales have all been cheap phones in areas that can't afford BB10.... but of course this is all been discussed countless times before and your shifting the discussion yet again.

    Posted via CB10
    A third of the sales were in North America I believe.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    01-29-14 11:19 AM
  3. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Thanks for the correction
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Are you going to accept that price and perception of the device are bigger factors to the topic in question than features..?

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    Does it matter if I accept it or not? It's not gonna change the results. I do consider it a factor but I think features are more important. It's the reason I keep running back to BBOS and I can afford BB10. Pricing is not a factor for me at all, except maybe roaming prices


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    01-29-14 11:23 AM
  4. lnichols's Avatar
    A third of the sales were in North America I believe.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Where are you getting that number from? I think that about a quarter of the user base is still in the US, but I didn't see anything to in the numbers to state that a third of BBOS sales are in the US.

    Posted via CB10
    01-29-14 12:16 PM
  5. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Where are you getting that number from? I think that about a quarter of the user base is still in the US, but I didn't see anything to in the numbers to state that a third of BBOS sales are in the US.

    Posted via CB10
    Refer to post #70 in this thread, almost 30% of sales were in North America.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    01-29-14 01:31 PM
  6. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Where are you getting that number from? I think that about a quarter of the user base is still in the US, but I didn't see anything to in the numbers to state that a third of BBOS sales are in the US.

    Posted via CB10



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    01-29-14 01:32 PM
  7. tinochiko's Avatar
    http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/30/e7udu3an.jpg


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Legacy and BlackBerry10 or just one of them?

    TechCraze C0008DDD1
    01-29-14 01:44 PM
  8. Bbnivende's Avatar
    True but it shows just how bad BB10 is doing


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    No doubt that sales of BB10 are in the dumper but there is the potential for increased sales in the future. BBOS sales are in a decline as is the number of BBOS units in use (my perception).

    Is Nokia going to revive Symbian ?
    01-29-14 01:53 PM
  9. lnichols's Avatar
    http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/30/e7udu3an.jpg


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    That is Revenue by Region, not devices sales by Region. We know that device sales have been weak, and they are losing money on the hardware business.

    The revenue breakdown for the quarter was approximately 40% for hardware, 53% for services and 7% for software and other revenue
    This is a statement about the total. So 40% of the $1.2 Billion was hardware, or $480 Million is hardware, worldwide. Since they don't give a breakdown of hardware by region, and the US still is their largest number of active subscribers (and it has been shrinking), you can clearly make a pretty good guess that most of that $340 Million in revenue for NA is service and software, and not hardware, and the hardware in NA would be more BB10 devices in the mix than say a APAC. In Fact I would say the bulk of the hardware revenue came from Middle East, Africa, and APAC.
    MarsupilamiX and tinochiko like this.
    01-29-14 02:34 PM
  10. Dark_Horse's Avatar
    OS7 is still simple, fast and efficient and has proper call and end call buttons. The trackpad lets you position the cursor accurately and for the seriou smessenger, you can;t beat the combination of the proper keyboard with the trackpad. Whilst old, the OS is familiar to millions of users and even newbies can get to grips with it easily enough since the model of folders and icons works well.

    Plus, the phones are cheap and there's far more of them to chose from at different price points. Here in the UK, the Z10 was overpriced at 300 quid let alone the 400+ is launched at. It's no wonder that it's now available SIM free for 160 from CPW. Finally, OS7 devices are well embedded in the corporate world and there's no compelling reason for businesses to move to OS10.

    I reckon the biggest problem with OS10 though is that it relies too heavily on stupid obscure gestures for navigation and the learning curve is far too steep and frustrating for seasoned BB users. The beauty of BB's has always been their brutal efficiency, you can get things done quickly and without any fuss but OS10 throws all this away in favour of a touchscreen experience which is not what people buy BB's for.

    There's not even a homescreen so there's no chance of a today page to show all your upcoming appointments. It's a real shame because in the sea of social media obsessed, useless ad infested identikit Android crap complete with sub-optimal UI and Google snooping, there is a real demand for a proper "grown up" handset. Unfortunately, OS10 devices are those handsets.

    Oh, and it wouldn't kill BlackBerry to actually market the damn things, the 10.2.1 update is significant yet we don't hear a peep about this very functional update.
    ssbtech and Davidro1 like this.
    01-29-14 03:42 PM
  11. Omnitech's Avatar
    It's this mentality that makes people buy big SUVs to do the school run. Sure it has extra features but the only reason I would want to buy it is to have BIS equivalent fast email, I don't need all the other features.

    You're making things up.

    The protocol is superior by almost any measure.

    There is no "cost" associated with using it, per-se.

    This would be like arguing that it would be a bad idea if you were given a choice of a car with better fuel economy at the same price and with the same performance and reliability and styling as another car using older technology, and then picking the older one because "I don't need all that new fangled technology". Utterly stupid.

    The ONLY "theoretical" downside to using EAS is that since Microsoft licenses the technology, one might surmise that those licensing costs might find their way into the cost of the service that uses them.

    But there's only one problem with that reasoning: You are ALREADY paying more than services that provide professional EAS email functionality.

    THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE.

    (Well, unless you just knee-jerk backlash against anything you think smacks of "new-fangled technology" -- in which case I cannot help you.)




    And I'm pretty sure EAS is not more battery efficient then BiS or easier to configure.

    You have no idea what you are talking about and are just making things up.




    BIS also has additional features like filters and read receipts.

    Those things are rudimentary features that virtually any professional email hosting service provides, along with 100's of things that BIS devices cannot do.

    Make up your mind: either extra features are good, or extra features are automatically bad. You don't get to flip-flop that position just because it doesn't favor your favorite horse in the race at the given moment.
    Last edited by Omnitech; 01-29-14 at 04:16 PM.
    johnnyuk likes this.
    01-29-14 04:01 PM
  12. Omnitech's Avatar
    OS7 is still simple, fast and efficient and has proper call and end call buttons.

    It's easy to spot traditionalists when they start intoning about what buttons are "proper" or not.

    I suppose that 95% of the smartphone market today is "improper" then. [shrug]



    The trackpad lets you position the cursor accurately and for the serious messenger, you can;t beat the combination of the proper keyboard with the trackpad.

    I agree that BB10 has poor cursor positioning, but I think the problem is about 70% due to poor touchscreen software design, only 30% due to lack of trackpad.



    Whilst old, the OS is familiar to millions of users and even newbies can get to grips with it easily enough since the model of folders and icons works well.

    Yes a small number of people in the world are familiar with it. Most people in the world today using smartphones however, aren't familiar with it and use straight touchscreen products. (Which is why BlackBerry's sales are in the toilet these days compared to the competition)

    As for "newbies" easily learning it, I think you're taking a leap of faith there, because YOU are familiar and comfortable with it and don't want to change.



    Plus, the phones are cheap...

    Not anywhere near as cheap as the competition that provides richer functionality.

    Which is why BlackBerry has a miniscule marketshare these days.




    I reckon the biggest problem with OS10 though is that it relies too heavily on stupid obscure gestures...

    They are only "obscure" to people who refuse to learn them.
    johnnyuk and Davidro1 like this.
    01-29-14 04:13 PM
  13. ssbtech's Avatar
    But there's only one problem with that reasoning: You are ALREADY paying more than services that provide professional EAS email functionality.
    No, my BIS plan was cheaper than "professional" EAS email.

    I pay $30/mo for a 6GB BlackBerry data plan (BIS).

    Show me a mail service that gives me 5 EAS accounts AND doesn't add anything to my monthly data cost.
    01-29-14 04:41 PM
  14. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    No, my BIS plan was cheaper than "professional" EAS email.

    I pay $30/mo for a 6GB BlackBerry data plan (BIS).

    Show me a mail service that gives me 5 EAS accounts AND doesn't add anything to my monthly data cost.
    You can actually set up up to 10 email accounts on your BIS.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    01-29-14 04:56 PM
  15. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    It's easy to spot traditionalists when they start intoning about what buttons are "proper" or not.

    I suppose that 95% of the smartphone market today is "improper" then. [shrug]






    I agree that BB10 has poor cursor positioning, but I think the problem is about 70% due to poor touchscreen software design, only 30% due to lack of trackpad.






    Yes a small number of people in the world are familiar with it. Most people in the world today using smartphones however, aren't familiar with it and use straight touchscreen products. (Which is why BlackBerry's sales are in the toilet these days compared to the competition)

    As for "newbies" easily learning it, I think you're taking a leap of faith there, because YOU are familiar and comfortable with it and don't want to change.






    Not anywhere near as cheap as the competition that provides richer functionality.

    Which is why BlackBerry has a miniscule marketshare these days.







    They are only "obscure" to people who refuse to learn them.
    You're forgetting people already voted with their wallets and they voted against BB10.

    Just because Apple are selling lots if iPhones doesn't mean BB can make a full touch phone and it will sell the same. Far from it.

    The 95% of the market is gone and BB are handing the rest on a plate to the competition by not making a device their existing user base wants.

    Praise Bb10 an EAS all day long, very few are using the combination.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    01-29-14 05:02 PM
  16. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    You're forgetting people already voted with their wallets and they voted against BB10.

    Just because Apple are selling lots if iPhones doesn't mean BB can make a full touch phone and it will sell the same. Far from it.

    The 95% of the market is gone and BB are handing the rest on a plate to the competition by not making a device their existing user base wants.

    Praise Bb10 an EAS all day long, very few are using the combination.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    99% of phones sold, are non BBOS devices.
    This tells us that the market has rejected it and that people voted with their wallet against devices with that particular OS.
    It also implies that they rejected BIS.

    Since 99% of the market doesn't use BIS, it means that most people having something akin to a professional grade email system, will use EAS.
    This obviously means, that pretty much the whole market disagrees with your statements.
    Your lacking knowledge about EAS features is just the cherry on top of the cake, that entertains me even more.

    BlackBerry lost the BBOS market and will never get it back with BBOS, because the market has moved on.
    If they want to get more than their 1.5% of marketshare, then BB10 has to achieve it.
    If not it's bye bye for BlackBerry anyway (at least as a smartphone manufacturer).

    It's time to understand the paradigm of how phones are used in 2014, to make the comments you do.
    Over and over again, this isn't the case though.

    Posted via CB10
    Omnitech and johnnyuk like this.
    01-29-14 05:13 PM
  17. ssbtech's Avatar
    Since 99% of the market doesn't use BIS, it means that most people having something akin to a professional grade email system, will use EAS.
    This obviously means, that pretty much the whole market disagrees with your statements.
    Your lacking knowledge about EAS features is just the cherry on top of the cake, that entertains me even more.
    EAS is expensive, doesn't work properly (my calendar screws up) and is really intended for closed corporate email systems, not webmail that's available to the masses.

    EAS perhaps works well if you have one corporate email account, but beyond that if you have multiple accounts or any special filtering/sorting of messages it's a mess.
    01-29-14 05:55 PM
  18. Nine54's Avatar
    It's easy to spot traditionalists when they start intoning about what buttons are "proper" or not.
    Heh, what's "proper" is certainly subjective as are "simple," "fast" and "efficient." Arguments could me made for BBOS on either side of those coins, but I think the issue is that those "traditionalists" found BBOS faster and more efficient than competitor products. BlackBerry ran with the assumption that the old UI/UX paradigm was broken, but traditionalists likely would disagree. A similar debate exists around Windows 8.

    I agree that BB10 has poor cursor positioning, but I think the problem is about 70% due to poor touchscreen software design, only 30% due to lack of trackpad.
    This suggests that you believe that a software solution can provide more optimal cursor positioning than a physical solution/trackpad. But can you actually point to an example of this? I'm not disagreeing with the premise per se; just pointing out that current empirical evidence suggests otherwise. That said, I'm not in this camp that believes buttons are bad and that all technical challenges with smartphones should be solved via software vs. hardware. That, to me, is no different than refusing to let go of physical buttons.

    Yes a small number of people in the world are familiar with it. Most people in the world today using smartphones however, aren't familiar with it and use straight touchscreen products. (Which is why BlackBerry's sales are in the toilet these days compared to the competition)
    Valid point, but one that depends on the target audience for the product. Why does targeting new customers mean that existing customers always have to "get on board" and learn something new? I'm not yet so jaded as to think people are unwilling to learn something new if doing so adds value. Basically, if something is the right tool for the job, people will learn it. If the UI/UX is a barrier to adoption, then a company should focus on making the product easier to use--not simply making it look more like the other guys' product. People weren't familiar with iOS and touchscreens, but got through the learning curve because the UI was intuitive.

    That said, I think this comes back to who is BlackBerry's target audience. If it's trying to sell phones to the "everyman" touchscreen phone user, than sure, the old UI paradigm would be a competitive disadvantage. But if it's trying to target a niche within that market or a particular set of use cases, than maybe the UI is an advantage IF that UI better meets the needs of these users.

    As for "newbies" easily learning it, I think you're taking a leap of faith there, because YOU are familiar and comfortable with it and don't want to change.

    <snip>

    They are only "obscure" to people who refuse to learn them.
    So above you said that one reason BlackBerry phone sales are terrible is because today's phone users aren't familiar with the old UI. Yet, here you said that BB 10 gestures aren't obscure because people can learn them. These points would seem to contradict.

    Comparatively speaking, the gestures are obscure, which is why BlackBerry added an icon for the Hub. How many people would pick up a phone and think the first thing they need to do is swipe up from the bottom? They'd be much more inclined to press the power button on the top and, if an obvious visual cue is present when the screen illuminates, then realize they need to swipe up from the bottom. And aside from a very small icon next to the app screen dots, there really is no visual cue suggesting that the Hub is to the left. (We're assuming this isn't the first time powering on the phone, in which case there is a tutorial.)

    Again, I'll go back to my earlier point around BlackBerry having the assumption that the old UI was broken and that physical buttons are bad. "Why aren't we selling phones, what's different about ours? Oh yeah, we have all these buttons and a trackpad...we've got to get rid of those!" Sure, the majority of users have moved on to touchscreen devices, but I'm pretty sure the lack of a compelling touchscreen device wasn't the only reason BlackBerry phones weren't selling--especially since BlackBerry did have more touch-oriented phones with the Storm and Torch lines.

    Furthermore, whether you like the trackpad and want it back or not, I've yet to see a compelling argument about why a trackpad is inherently incompatible with BB 10. The iPhone has a home button doubling as a fingerprint scanner right there below the screen. Why couldn't an all-touch BlackBerry have a trackpad there instead? And why couldn't pressing the trackpad return you to the Active Frames page while sliding across navigates you between the Hub and app pages? And heck, let's go totally nuts: why couldn't there be Call and End buttons flanking this trackpad since, looking at the iPhone's design, there'd be plenty of real estate on either side of the home button? My take is that, from a usability standpoint, there aren't really any good reasons. Rather, it's just part of this recent design trend or fad around removing buttons. Of course, going against that trend could cause your product to stand out, which could be negative, but that's a perception and marketing problem, not a usability one.
    01-29-14 06:05 PM
  19. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Whether by BBOS or BB10 a 3.1 inch screen is just too small .
    johnnyuk likes this.
    01-29-14 08:25 PM
  20. Omnitech's Avatar
    No, my BIS plan was cheaper than "professional" EAS email.

    Why is it you two have a habit of answering posts directed at the other one? Maybe you should get married?

    I was having a discussion with BD and that is who I was referring-to in that comment.
    01-29-14 10:03 PM
  21. lnichols's Avatar
    EAS is expensive, doesn't work properly (my calendar screws up) and is really intended for closed corporate email systems, not webmail that's available to the masses.

    EAS perhaps works well if you have one corporate email account, but beyond that if you have multiple accounts or any special filtering/sorting of messages it's a mess.
    Yet my outlook.com account would disagree with every bit of your statement. And my guess would be Office 365 would as well.

    Posted via CB10
    Omnitech likes this.
    01-29-14 10:05 PM
  22. Omnitech's Avatar
    You're forgetting people already voted with their wallets and they voted against BB10.

    No, most people didn't even get a ballot, nor were aware who the candidates were.
    01-29-14 10:05 PM
  23. Omnitech's Avatar
    EAS is expensive...


    Already proven wrong here. Please read and absorb.



    ...doesn't work properly (my calendar screws up)

    No.

    Slippery slope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Non sequitur (logic) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    ...and is really intended for closed corporate email systems, not webmail that's available to the masses.

    LOL. Really going for the Hail Mary pass there, eh?

    Begging the question - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Tell that to the users of the 2nd largest free webmail system in the world.



    EAS perhaps works well if you have one corporate email account, but beyond that if you have multiple accounts or any special filtering/sorting of messages it's a mess.

    You have no idea what you are talking about.
    01-29-14 10:13 PM
  24. ssbtech's Avatar
    Why is it you two have a habit of answering posts directed at the other one? Maybe you should get married?
    It's an open conversation, isn't it?

    Yet my outlook.com account would disagree with every bit of your statement. And my guess would be Office 365 would as well.
    My Outlook.com and Office 365 isn't as reliable as my old BIS connection. Email syncing on the phone is a bit of a mess, calendar entries screw up, etc...
    01-29-14 10:40 PM
  25. Omnitech's Avatar
    Heh, what's "proper" is certainly subjective as are "simple," "fast" and "efficient."

    Wrong on its face.

    "Fast" and especially "Faster than X" is directly quantifiable.

    "Efficient" is quantifiable if you carefully specify parameters.

    "Simple" is also quantifiable if you carefully specify parameters, though it is often used sloppily.

    Whereas "proper" implies some sort of rule or law that dictates how something is supposed to function or behave.

    Hope that helps.



    Arguments could me made for BBOS on either side of those coins, but I think the issue is that those "traditionalists" found BBOS faster and more efficient than competitor products.

    Whereas I would guess that a large percentage, even majority of the BBOS traditionalists have extremely limited exposure to platforms outside of what they chose back in the days when BlackBerry was the top platform in the marketplace.

    Case in point, BelfastDispatcher here seems to truly believe that he made a great effort to make BlackBerry 10 work for him, and my experience with him suggests he is deluded on that point. In short, whether people think one thing or other is better is often an extremely subjective opinion handicapped by extremely limited experience with alternatives and a penchant for rationalizing one's choices in life with absurd pretzel-logic, an emotional malady that is unfortunately rather common.

    I am well-aware of how this works in the consumer technology marketplace because I spent over 10 years in the retail business selling those products to people. The fact that people make such completely boneheaded decisions about what to own and/or cheerlead-for is one of the key reasons I couldn't work in the business any more. The irrationality and capriciousness of the typical customer's product decision-making process drove me nuts.



    but traditionalists likely would disagree.

    ORLY?



    This suggests that you believe that a software solution can provide more optimal cursor positioning than a physical solution/trackpad. But can you actually point to an example of this?

    I am not a pedant when it comes to UI, people are always going to have different opinions on that. And if you want to discuss the finer details of UI design, I suggest you start a different thread.

    More importantly, customers around the world have shown VAST preference for all-touchscreen devices today, including MOST BlackBerry users here at Crackberry, in my experience. There are a small minority of absolutely dug-in stubborn traditionalists who will probably be arguing for the return of the horse and buggy in the year 3000 for all I know, but the fact that they spend their days on Crackberry arguing for the return of the horse and buggy for hours on end doesn't really mean a hill of beans in the grand scheme of things.



    Why does targeting new customers mean that existing customers always have to "get on board" and learn something new?

    For the same reasons you can't go down to the local auto-parts store and buy a replacement motor for your 1953 Chevy, and you probably will have a very difficult time finding a replacement CPU fan for a 12 year old PC, and you will discover that your 12 year old email program will not support the latest groupware features offered by modern email infrastructure, and so on and so on.

    Companies who produce products are not charities. In order to survive and continue to support their customers they must generate revenue and profit from products. If the potential revenue stream from a 10-year-old product has dwindled to virtually zero, no one in their right mind should expect the company to lose gobs of money catering to old nellies who can't give up something that no longer supports modern systems, no longer interoperates with anything, is afflicted with multiple serious architectural deficiencies that lead to unfixable security vulnerabilities, etc etc etc ad nauseum.

    I really really don't understand why I would have to explain something like that to grown adults - I would think children by the age of 16 or so would have gotten a handle on such obvious matters of basic logic.



    I'm not yet so jaded as to think people are unwilling to learn something new if doing so adds value.

    And the devil is in the details here wrt to the definition of "adds value". As we have seen in the case of BelfastDispatcher and ssbtech, they will go to the ends of the earth making up excuses and fabricating "facts" for months on end to rationalize their decision made long ago that they want a product that works a specific particular way for all eternity, and that is that.



    Basically, if something is the right tool for the job, people will learn it.

    As a person whose business and professional role revolves around implementing and supporting technology in businesses, I can say with great confidence that you have no idea what you are talking about in that respect.

    As we have seen here in this thread with great abundance, MOST people in fact are un-creative, set in their ways and stubborn about their established personal patterns. This is also why we have ridiculous, endless "advocacy wars" here on CrackBerry - because people are so absurdly defensive about their platform choices.



    So above you said that one reason BlackBerry phone sales are terrible is because today's phone users aren't familiar with the old UI. Yet, here you said that BB 10 gestures aren't obscure because people can learn them. These points would seem to contradict.

    Show me where I claimed "BlackBerry phone sales are terrible is because today's phone users aren't familiar with the old UI".

    BlackBerry sales are terrible for a variety of reasons, this thread in particular demonstrates the fallacy that since BB10 flopped for a bunch of mostly unrelated reasons, the legacy OS partisans seem to think that means that "BBOS won". No, as MarsupilamiX has repeatedly pointed-out, they BOTH failed.
    johnnyuk and Vorkosigan like this.
    01-29-14 10:46 PM
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