02-08-14 01:31 AM
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  1. southlander's Avatar
    Yes, BlackBerry mistakes didn't start with BB10, they really went down hill with BB7, battery life was a major problem. I mean the battery in the 9900 was absolutely tiny. They wiped a major BlackBerry advantage overnight.

    Posted via CB10
    Well the hardware on the BBOS 7 phones was a LOT faster than previous devices. They went from devices with the old ~ 600-800 MHz processors to something like 1.2 GHz. And more RAM. And the thinnest phone -- so yeah the battery was a bit wimpy. But, their main issue seems to me is it always takes a long time and many many OS revisions before BlackBerry can iron out the efficiency on the battery no matter the OS. The latest versions of BBOS 7 have greatly improved battery life vs. the initial versions. Same with BB10.

    BlackBerry does not seem to realize you can't wait until folks have returned their phones due to poor battery performance -- to actually optimize the battery performance.
    Dave Bourque and johnnyuk like this.
    12-24-13 01:35 PM
  2. lnichols's Avatar
    Well the hardware on the BBOS 7 phones was a LOT faster than previous devices. They went from devices with the old ~ 600-800 MHz processors to something like 1.2 GHz. And more RAM. And the thinnest phone -- so yeah the battery was a bit wimpy. But, their main issue seems to me is it always takes a long time and many many OS revisions before BlackBerry can iron out the efficiency on the battery no matter the OS. The latest versions of BBOS 7 have greatly improved battery life vs. the initial versions. Same with BB10.

    BlackBerry does not seem to realize you can't wait until folks have returned their phones due to poor battery performance -- to actually optimize the battery performance.
    Don't forget that they added HSPA+ support which also used up more power than 3G or 2G.

    Posted via CB10
    southlander likes this.
    12-24-13 01:58 PM
  3. southlander's Avatar
    Don't forget that they added HSPA+ support which also used up more power than 3G or 2G.

    Posted via CB10
    Lol. Yeah being on Verizon that is something I would tend to overlook.
    12-24-13 02:37 PM
  4. srzjumper's Avatar
    There are more poor people than rich people.

    Posted via CB10
    12-24-13 02:41 PM
  5. zzbsb's Avatar
    There are more poor people than rich people.

    Posted via CB10
    Ok, is that why Iphones sell so much more?
    12-24-13 08:51 PM
  6. johnnyuk's Avatar
    Another good point along these lines is that you can't refresh the native PlayBook email using the bridge data connection.

    And there is no messages app that bridges with your BB10 phone. So for people that used to not have to use wifi or hotspot to access some kind of email experience on the PlayBook , you are out of luck now that you have upgraded to BB10.

    Posted Via CB10 using the power of "Q"
    ActiveSync accounts do continue to work through Bridge. It's IMAP and SMTP/POP accounts that don't.

    Remember that PlayBook was still being aimed at the enterprise market rather than the consumer even when native PIM apps finally arrived in it. If you have a work mailbox on your PlayBook it's very likely to be ActiveSync. If your PlayBook was on Mobile Fusion with work, which became BES10, then it is using ActiveSync.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK - Activated on BES10.2
    12-25-13 12:45 AM
  7. Omnitech's Avatar
    & by a 3-1 margin @ that...
    As I pointed-out back in post #302 in this thread, they aren't outselling BB10 because legacy OS is fabulous, they're outselling BB10 because BB10 was a flop for reasons that had little to do with any similiarities or differences between it and legacy OS.

    The global marketshare of ANY BlackBerry platform today remains miniscule.
    Last edited by Omnitech; 12-25-13 at 02:05 AM. Reason: typo
    johnnyuk and JeepBB like this.
    12-25-13 12:50 AM
  8. Omnitech's Avatar
    I don't doubt that your experience was true for you but will the purchasers of BBOS devices have all of these issues ? My two year old 9900 works fine.


    I grant you that the OS 7.1 devices were reputedly significantly (but by no means massively) improved from what I had, but by the time I was on my second legacy OS BlackBerry I had had enough. I never bothered with the 99xx series for a variety of reasons, see below.



    It is true that BB10 is a far more capable OS for consuming media and web browsing and running apps.


    Far more than that.

    For example, while many die-hard fans of the old world of BlackBerry love to claim that legacy OS had superior email functionality, in fact it was severely handicapped in regards to email in a variety of ways, some of which have been discussed here in this thread several times.

    Here's a shortlist of things that drove me away from that platform - specifically nullified my interest in upgrading to the 99xx series, off the top of my head:



    1. No LTE capability (Other vendors had this for 1-2 years already by the time the 99xx series came out, if I'm not mistaken.)
    2. BIS - oh how I hated BIS. I cannot begin to enumerate here, I even started a thread/FAQ about it back in March.
    3. Still lousy web browser. This is not an entertainment thing for me, a web browser is part of my I.T. work, if it's garbage, I can't do work from a smartphone. (The latency added by BIS was a major factor here, which is why it came as no surprise to me that BIS was dropped in BB10. If not, the web browser performance would have remained a laughingstock of the industry)
    4. Crappy email limitations (doesn't render HTML emails properly and will often corrupt them making them impossible to read or reply-to, won't receive large attachments, doesn't show headers of messages, won't allow editing when forwarding a message, various others. I actually had to install a 3rd-party email client (LogicMail) on my 9650 because of the various limitations of the native email client, and then flip back/forth between them.
    5. HORRIBLE camera - fixed focus like the plastic camera I was given at the age of 8. (That was a LONG time ago. )
    6. The JavaME environment was loaded with problems including memory leaks and performance problems, deadlock/"Clock of Death" problems, extremely long reboot time, etc.
    7. App installation experience was really horrible. Took forever, most of the time required a reboot after every install (pain magnified by horrifically long reboot time), all sorts of bizarro compatibility issues about how an app would connect to the internet, BIS-A, BIS-B, Direct, WiFi, I don't even remember all the crazy choices. (And what happens when I happen to need to use a different method some day for that app?)




    To be sure, there were some nice aspects of BlackBerry's legacy OS too. Unfortunately, the things above were dealbreakers to me.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    12-25-13 01:19 AM
  9. Omnitech's Avatar
    Not BBOS7 phones! They were the first line to introduce poor battery life to Blackberrys. I was shocked at the appalling battery life when I first used a Curve 9360. 2
    Ah, I didn't realize that since I never used one for anything longer than a quick demo.

    One of the cool things about the 9650 is how quickly it charges. Side-effect of small battery.

    I miss the charging contacts and OEM dock though. That was the kind of "Doh!" omission that never made sense to me.



    Because many users who come from OS7 devices feels that q10 is in adequate for more productivity compared to their 9900. Due to shortcut keys and easier navigation

    I know what you're saying, and some of that is hard to duplicate since some of the dedicated buttons were removed, but my understanding was that recent OS versions improved the shortcut-key capability for the QWERTY models somewhat.
    12-25-13 01:29 AM
  10. Prem WatsApp's Avatar
    Add South Korea, if you like. Been there, my car is Korean, and a lot of my friends' and relos' phones, fridges etc. Nominally Korean too, hahaha

    My name is Prem, I'm using BBM ... from my QuZe10 ...whatarhyme...
    12-25-13 02:02 AM
  11. Prem WatsApp's Avatar
    Add South Korea, if you like. Been there, my car is Korean, and a lot of my friends' and relos' phones, fridges etc. are nominally Korean too, hahaha

    My name is Prem, I'm using BBM ... from my QuZe10 ...whatarhyme...
    As a developed country. I mean, some criteria might not apply, but my gut feeling tells me, it should be classed a developed country. Samsung from emerging markets?

    My name is Prem, I'm using BBM ... from my QuZe10 ...whatarhyme...
    12-25-13 02:09 AM
  12. Prem WatsApp's Avatar
    Probably because OS7 is tried and tested and works better than 10. Yes 10 looks very nice and works well on the new devices, but I prefer my old 9900, it did everything I wanted it to without any fuss. Simple things like downloading podcasts and copy & paste. There are so many annoying bugs in 10, that I would have gone back already if t weren't for my Q10 being an early xmas present and it would upset my husband who bought it for me.
    Bottom line, OS10 has been rather disappointing and if you want a decent BB, I'd go with a 9900. Which may explain the sales.
    I guess you are still on 10.1. Upgrade to 10.2 official fixed a lot of grievances for me. I know, it might not be available in the US yet. Down unda it is,... thanks Optus, and ahem... thanks Telstra (I never thought I'd say that!)

    My name is Prem, I'm using BBM ... from my QuZe10 ...whatarhyme...
    12-25-13 02:25 AM
  13. darkehawke's Avatar
    How do you like having to reboot your BBOS phone after installing/uninstalling every app?

    How do you like having to reboot your BBOS phone every day to free up app RAM eaten by memory leaks?

    How do you like having GigaBytes of storage space inside your BBOS phone that apps can't use?

    How do you like that one crashed or hung task in the Java OS of your BBOS phone can take down the whole OS requiring a battery pull?

    How do you like that at any random moment the OS can decide you are not going to use your BBOS phone for a while as instead it wants to show you the spinning clock of "stop what you're doing until I say so!"

    How do you like that OTA OS updates on BBOS phones can take 4 or 5 hours to install leaving you unable to use your phone during any of the process?

    How do you like that your BBOS phone is incapable of displaying modern 3D graphics rendering it a joke as a gaming or entertainment device?

    How do you like browsing the web on your BBOS phone without Flash or the ability to convert and display Flash video in the browser on the fly?

    Those were the fundamental problems of BBOS holding it back from being a 'modern' mobile Operating System and those were the most important problems that BB10 fixed. I'm sorry but I see all the garnish and film flam from BBOS that people whinge about being missing from BB10 as being insignificant compared to solving the problems I listed.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    Yeah. Over half of this list wasn't an issue at all on my 7.1 9810.
    Same with quite a few legacy users I know which is why to this day I am still the only BlackBerry 10 user I know.
    If you suffered these problems then yeah I can see why you would want to make the leap. But for people who didn't suffer these problems or for who the problems didn't matter, something needs to be done to attract them.
    So far that part has been going too slowly

    Posted via CB10
    SEAWARRIOR and xanadome like this.
    12-25-13 03:07 AM
  14. darkehawke's Avatar
    As I pointed-out back in post #302 in this thread, they aren't outselling BB10 because legacy OS is fabulous, they're outselling BB10 because BB10 was a flop for reasons that had little to do with any similiarities or differences between it and legacy OS.

    The global marketshare of ANY BlackBerry platform today remains miniscule.
    Actually I believe it is part of the reason.
    They expected the majority of the 80 mill to jump to BlackBerry 10 and they tried to attract other users.
    What they ended up was something that appealed to neither.
    Insignificant in the long run yes but to have 80 mill on BlackBerry 10 would be much better than what it has today

    Posted via CB10
    SEAWARRIOR and xanadome like this.
    12-25-13 03:10 AM
  15. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I grant you that the OS 7.1 devices were reputedly significantly (but by no means massively) improved from what I had, but by the time I was on my second legacy OS BlackBerry I had had enough. I never bothered with the 99xx series for a variety of reasons, see below.







    Far more than that.

    For example, while many die-hard fans of the old world of BlackBerry love to claim that legacy OS had superior email functionality, in fact it was severely handicapped in regards to email in a variety of ways, some of which have been discussed here in this thread several times.

    Here's a shortlist of things that drove me away from that platform - specifically nullified my interest in upgrading to the 99xx series, off the top of my head:



    1. No LTE capability (Other vendors had this for 1-2 years already by the time the 99xx series came out, if I'm not mistaken.)
    2. BIS - oh how I hated BIS. I cannot begin to enumerate here, I even started a thread/FAQ about it back in March.
    3. Still lousy web browser. This is not an entertainment thing for me, a web browser is part of my I.T. work, if it's garbage, I can't do work from a smartphone. (The latency added by BIS was a major factor here, which is why it came as no surprise to me that BIS was dropped in BB10. If not, the web browser performance would have remained a laughingstock of the industry)
    4. Crappy email limitations (doesn't render HTML emails properly and will often corrupt them making them impossible to read or reply-to, won't receive large attachments, doesn't show headers of messages, won't allow editing when forwarding a message, various others. I actually had to install a 3rd-party email client (LogicMail) on my 9650 because of the various limitations of the native email client, and then flip back/forth between them.
    5. HORRIBLE camera - fixed focus like the plastic camera I was given at the age of 8. (That was a LONG time ago. )
    6. The JavaME environment was loaded with problems including memory leaks and performance problems, deadlock/"Clock of Death" problems, extremely long reboot time, etc.
    7. App installation experience was really horrible. Took forever, most of the time required a reboot after every install (pain magnified by horrifically long reboot time), all sorts of bizarro compatibility issues about how an app would connect to the internet, BIS-A, BIS-B, Direct, WiFi, I don't even remember all the crazy choices. (And what happens when I happen to need to use a different method some day for that app?)




    To be sure, there were some nice aspects of BlackBerry's legacy OS too. Unfortunately, the things above were dealbreakers to me.
    Wait what? You haven't owned a OS7 device? Then sorry my friend, you don't know what you're talking about, many things were improved including a simultaneous direct carrier connection and BIS, improved BIS attachment limits to the point I very rarely saw a truncated email, NFC, wifi hotspot, not all os7 devices had the fixed focus camera, only the 9900 did.

    Gaming was much improved too, playing need for speed without a glitch.
    Wikitude was also pretty cool in action.

    This is what makes me think there was still much room for improvement on the Legacy platform.
    12-25-13 03:13 AM
  16. Omnitech's Avatar
    Wait what? You haven't owned a OS7 device? Then sorry my friend, you don't know what you're talking about, many things were improved including a simultaneous direct carrier connection and BIS, improved BIS attachment limits to the point I very rarely saw a truncated email, NFC, wifi hotspot, not all os7 devices had the fixed focus camera, only the 9900 did.
    Didn't care about NFC.
    Already know what the BIS attachment limit is as of today (for any BIS device) and it's not high enough.
    Wifi hotspot at the time the 9930 came out would have been either disabled by Verizon or charged a big monthly fee for so that likely would not have benefitted me. (Especially since I've had standalone Verizon cellular hotspots since pretty much the day they became available, and several generations now, and don't like the idea of using my phone battery for that unless I don't have my regular one with me)
    Re: fixed-focus camera: Verizon had nothing between the 9650 and the 9930 (Torch was AT&T exclusive and I have never been interested in low-end devices like Curves or Pearls), so that was the issue for me, as it was for many people - check the threads here. I need to be able to do things like "scan" documents, take closeup pics of damaged items shipped to a company or myself, etc... Fixed focus camera would have been a serious issue. I don't carry my Nikons around with me like I do my mobile phone.
    12-25-13 03:50 AM
  17. RubberChicken76's Avatar

    Gaming was much improved too, playing need for speed without a glitch.
    .
    The BB7 devices were definitely under estimated in terms of their gpu capabilities by some but the gaming platform was still hamstrung by the file size limits. You were just never going to see the same level of sophistication in games that you were in the other platforms. It was really obvious for me when I downloaded some of the really massive PlayBook games that had come out

    Posted via CB10
    12-25-13 05:40 AM
  18. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    The BB7 devices were definitely under estimated in terms of their gpu capabilities by some but the gaming platform was still hamstrung by the file size limits. You were just never going to see the same level of sophistication in games that you were in the other platforms. It was really obvious for me when I downloaded some of the really massive PlayBook games that had come out

    Posted via CB10
    Not really, apps could download a lot of the needed files to the memory card.
    12-25-13 05:50 AM
  19. qwerty4ever's Avatar
    Ah, I didn't realize that since I never used one for anything longer than a quick demo.

    One of the cool things about the 9650 is how quickly it charges. Side-effect of small battery.

    I miss the charging contacts and OEM dock though. That was the kind of "Doh!" omission that never made sense to me.






    I know what you're saying, and some of that is hard to duplicate since some of the dedicated buttons were removed, but my understanding was that recent OS versions improved the shortcut-key capability for the QWERTY models somewhat.
    Absolutely right about the lack of charging contacts especially for the BlackBerry Q5 and Q10. USB charging has always been a source of durability issues.

    Posted via the BlackBerry Q5 using CB10.
    SEAWARRIOR likes this.
    12-25-13 06:00 AM
  20. lnichols's Avatar
    Not really, apps could download a lot of the needed files to the memory card.
    Yeah but by the time BBOS7 phones with GPU'S hit the market, the PlayBook was out, and the idiots Balsillie and Lazaridis had already told the world that the first QNX phone would be available early 2012, or six months after OS7 devices launched. They killed the market and the app development, what little was left, for OS7 with those actions. You can't deny the gaming quality on a Z10 isn't superior to any OS7 device. Also they were stretching OS7 to the limits. Why put only 768 MB of app space when you have another 8GB of storage built into the phone especially when charging a hefty price for the phone? Because the OS was being stretched to make that work.

    That said my email experience with my Z10 has been superior to my 9900 in every way. All emails are viewable where some were not on the 9900, the meetup emails allowing me to add an event directly to my calendar where the 9900 just show jibberish, receiving or reply all with a huge distribution list actually working because of no truncating. I have a Gmail and outlook.com accounts on the phone and emails are fast on both.

    Posted via CB10
    12-25-13 07:32 AM
  21. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Yeah but by the time BBOS7 phones with GPU'S hit the market, the PlayBook was out, and the idiots Balsillie and Lazaridis had already told the world that the first QNX phone would be available early 2012, or six months after OS7 devices launched. They killed the market and the app development, what little was left, for OS7 with those actions. You can't deny the gaming quality on a Z10 isn't superior to any OS7 device. Also they were stretching OS7 to the limits. Why put only 768 MB of app space when you have another 8GB of storage built into the phone especially when charging a hefty price for the phone? Because the OS was being stretched to make that work.

    That said my email experience with my Z10 has been superior to my 9900 in every way. All emails are viewable where some were not on the 9900, the meetup emails allowing me to add an event directly to my calendar where the 9900 just show jibberish, receiving or reply all with a huge distribution list actually working because of no truncating. I have a Gmail and outlook.com accounts on the phone and emails are fast on both.

    Posted via CB10
    I wonder if Dan Dodge should share some blame on this, surely it was him that told Lazaridis that QNX could perform the miracles they clearly thought it could but clearly it can't.
    12-25-13 08:31 AM
  22. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Like the title asks, why is OS7 still outselling BB10 by a significant margin?
    Not many replies that are on topic. We are not getting many posts from individuals who bought BBOS device very recently. Why did they purchase a BBOS device now when the designs and OS is old?


    My presumption is that most of the BBOS recent purchases are in countries where English is a second language and and are not as likely to be on CB. These threads always end up with arguments between former BBOS owners and those like their legacy device.

    My answer to the OP is:
    BBOS purchasers were likely replacing other BBOS devices that had broken and or the device was cheap and their data plan was cheap. Anyone buying a BBOS device today has limited needs for a modern smartphone.

    Why isn't BB10 selling ?

    Most potential purchasers may feel that the Q10's screen is too small and the Q5 is too expensive. Likewise the Z10 design is underwhelming and there was considerable doubt that BB10 will last and they do not want a orphan phone. Most current owners of iPhone or androids are not unhappy with their phones. In a nutshell not many potential buyers want a new OS and the handsets themselves are not very appealing in comparison to the latest offerings from other brands.

    BB can still turn it around if they adopt the android app solution, bring out a big screen QWERTY , high spec all touch phone and a cheap but good Jakarta for their traditional BBOS markets.

    The USA market will be hard to crack. Their next batch of phones will have to be better than the competition.
    Sent from my Nexus 7 using CB Forums mobile app
    Last edited by Bbnivende; 12-25-13 at 10:34 AM.
    SEAWARRIOR and Davidro1 like this.
    12-25-13 09:53 AM
  23. SEAWARRIOR's Avatar
    Didn't care about NFC.
    Already know what the BIS attachment limit is as of today (for any BIS device) and it's not high enough.
    Wifi hotspot at the time the 9930 came out would have been either disabled by Verizon or charged a big monthly fee for so that likely would not have benefitted me. (Especially since I've had standalone Verizon cellular hotspots since pretty much the day they became available, and several generations now, and don't like the idea of using my phone battery for that unless I don't have my regular one with me)
    Re: fixed-focus camera: Verizon had nothing between the 9650 and the 9930 (Torch was AT&T exclusive and I have never been interested in low-end devices like Curves or Pearls), so that was the issue for me, as it was for many people - check the threads here. I need to be able to do things like "scan" documents, take closeup pics of damaged items shipped to a company or myself, etc... Fixed focus camera would have been a serious issue. I don't carry my Nikons around with me like I do my mobile phone.
    9810 was att exclusive,,, 9850/60 was available other carriers...
    12-25-13 11:53 AM
  24. pantlesspenguin's Avatar
    9810 was att exclusive,,, 9850/60 was available other carriers...
    T-Mo had the 9810 as well.
    SEAWARRIOR likes this.
    12-25-13 12:42 PM
  25. lnichols's Avatar
    I wonder if Dan Dodge should share some blame on this, surely it was him that told Lazaridis that QNX could perform the miracles they clearly thought it could but clearly it can't.
    Doubtful. They made stupid claims about leapfrogging the competition with OS6. They have a history over estimating the BlackBerry Engineering talent's ability to deliver and on timelines. It is also obvious comparing Tablet OS to BB10 that they made some major course corrections (dumping adobe AIR in favor of Cascades) that were necessary and needed. Unfortunately this delayed everything by at least a year too. BlackBerry Waterloo was broken and living in a bubble that has now popped and caused a lot of damage to the company.

    Posted via CB10
    12-25-13 02:28 PM
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