02-08-14 01:31 AM
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  1. johnnyuk's Avatar
    N

    In that case you accurately positioned the cursor with the trackpad, long press for quick menu, select and swipe away at the trackpad. Still miles better.

    PS I'm assuming you did know you could do long press on the trackpad for a fast pop up menu.
    You have to put it in to Select mode, from a menu, that's the point, it's clunky as hell.

    The BB10 way: press and hold on text to select the word, press and swipe a pin up or down to increase the selection range.

    That's 2 steps to BBOS' 4. It's obvious which is more efficient.

    BTW, you don't have to press the trackpad at all for the Quick menu on a touch screen BBOS phone, you can just touch and hold the screen. On a touch screen BBOS phone with a keyboard the screen is so small and useless it puts people off using it as a touch screen and drives them to use the touch pad, so maybe you never tried it.

    After using a Z10 I use the screen on touch screen BBOS phones so much more when I pick one up. The touch pad feels antiquated and cumbersome so I now find myself avoiding it subconsciously. But BBOS always feels disappointing overall in its responsiveness when using the screen. It soon has me reaching for the Z10 to get things done.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    12-23-13 02:36 AM
  2. Omnitech's Avatar
    I suspect the main reason for OS7 outselling BB10 is basically familiarity. Similar to the reason Win8 isn't doing so well.

    The reason Windows 8 isn't doing so well is that it does not having any truly compelling new features that solve any problems that actually need to be solved*, and the company REMOVED features that actually helped people be productive.

    In fact, one could assert similiar criticisms of BB10, to a degree.



    *(Unless you have a Microsoft Surface tablet, and we know how well those sold)
    12-23-13 02:45 AM
  3. Omnitech's Avatar
    I postulated at the time that The BlackBerry Development Team was not up to the task but as usual the vapid fanbois attacked me.


    WARNING: Victim card played!


    The "vapid fanbois" truly caused you to miss your opportunity to run the company, then. So sorry to hear that.

    The next time one of the BlackBerry naysayers gripes about someone using a term like "sheeps" or even "isheep", I will point them to this post as a reminder of why this polarized BS goes on and on and on and on.
    12-23-13 02:52 AM
  4. Omnitech's Avatar
    Eventually, the decision was made: BlackBerry 10 would be built from scratch. The problem with that approach was that a new team was being entrusted to recreate the BlackBerry. Those who had created the original system were still working on devices for the BlackBerry 7 platform. Once again, the company was split.


    Based on the design decisions and things I heard coming out of the company, this was more-or-less my conclusion as well.

    In a way, I admire Lazaridis acknowledgement that BBOS was a serious problem and they really needed to leave that problematic platform behind, on the other hand I think they lost sight of the value that the BBOS team could offer in terms of experience, at least as advisors on the project.




    The pricing of all BlackBerry 10 smartphones has been at premium levels despite unequivocal evidence that BlackBerry mindshare as well as marketshare made them anything but the industry pioneer status once held.

    I sincerely doubt that the company made some conscious choice to "gouge on the price" of the devices - they have a certain cost of production and they have a certain margin they need to make so they can keep the company alive.

    Despite this point being made over and over here - BlackBerry does not have the size and scale that their largest competitors do, and thus they will NEVER have the ability to compete directly head-to-head on price, until such time that they have the same scale as the competition does. Why so many people seem to think that they can just drop the price until they are losing money on every device just sort of boggles my mind.
    12-23-13 02:58 AM
  5. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    You have to put it in to Select mode, from a menu, that's the point, it's clunky as hell.

    The BB10 way: press and hold on text to select the word, press and swipe a pin up or down to increase the selection range.

    That's 2 steps to BBOS' 4. It's obvious which is more efficient.

    BTW, you don't have to press the trackpad at all for the Quick menu on a touch screen BBOS phone, you can just touch and hold the screen. On a touch screen BBOS phone with a keyboard the screen is so small and useless it puts people off using it as a touch screen and drives them to use the touch pad, so maybe you never tried it.

    After using a Z10 I use the screen on touch screen BBOS phones so much more when I pick one up. The touch pad feels antiquated and cumbersome so I now find myself avoiding it subconsciously. But BBOS always feels disappointing overall in its responsiveness when using the screen. It soon has me reaching for the Z10 to get things done.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    If you base your bbos experience on the touch screen then that's fair enough but when most of us refer to bbos we mean qwerty, and that qwerty had a ton of shortcuts that the Q10 doesn't, at least not yet. I had a Storm 2 and lasted only 2 months on it.

    Posted via CB10
    12-23-13 03:30 AM
  6. johnnyuk's Avatar
    The reason Windows 8 isn't doing so well is that it does not having any truly compelling new features that solve any problems that actually need to be solved*, and the company REMOVED features that actually helped people be productive.

    In fact, one could assert similiar criticisms of BB10, to a degree.
    Woah, that's a bit steep! BB10 solves so many of the inherent legacy problems of BBOS it's a night and day difference in terms of the user experience. That's the whole point of its existence, whereas Windows 8 didn't need to exist at all other than to attempt to support use on tablets and PCs and laptops with largely unnecessary touch screens.


    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    12-23-13 05:00 AM
  7. DaSchwantz's Avatar
    BlackBerry needs a super cheap 4.5" touchscreen phone. 1.2ghz dual core, 2gb ram, 5mp cam with auto focus, 8gb memory and 720p. If they can build and sell that for 150 bucks they will sell many, and they MUST advertise android app support.

    Sent from my Z30
    Enter Foxconn...
    12-23-13 05:34 AM
  8. d0n4lduck's Avatar
    As far as implementing BIS on QNX/BB10 BlackBerry already tried that at the beginning and hit so many difficulties, performance problems and show stopping road blocks that the idea had to be scrapped. So I'd call that a no.


    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    In that case, do you think Blackberry can have a cooperation with the telecommunication operators to provide BIS - plan capped fee type arrangement for unlimited email, BBM. facebook, twitter and browsing to the BB10 devices? Thus, the "cheap" capped fee arrangement can still be maintained although it is not a BIS. Do you think it is feasible to achieve from technology point of view?
    12-23-13 05:49 AM
  9. johnnyuk's Avatar
    In that case, do you think Blackberry can have a cooperation with the telecommunication operators to provide BIS - plan capped fee type arrangement for unlimited email, BBM. facebook, twitter and browsing to the BB10 devices? Thus, the "cheap" capped fee arrangement can still be maintained although it is not a BIS. Do you think it is feasible to achieve from technology point of view?
    Not sure how the carriers could limit data usage to just email, browsing, BBM, and social media without a very special data plan in place. BlackBerry are in no position to negotiate anything with carriers anywhere save maybe in Indonesia or some of Africa.

    The take up by carriers globally of the special data plan required for using "EMM Regulated" mode on BES10 activated BB10 phones so that they can be locked down to "Work space only" with no Personal space has been abysmal. BlackBerry are having to put a workaround in place for BES10 customers who want to use EMM Regulated mode in countries where the carriers aren't interested in providing the required data plan. I'd say that's an indication that carrier buy-in for your idea would be poor.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    Omnitech likes this.
    12-23-13 07:12 AM
  10. SEAWARRIOR's Avatar
    Woah, that's a bit steep! BB10 solves so many of the inherent legacy problems of BBOS it's a night and day difference in terms of the user experience. That's the whole point of its existence, whereas Windows 8 didn't need to exist at all other than to attempt to support use on tablets and PCs and laptops with largely unnecessary touch screens.
    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    hmmm,,, not bashin' here but i don't think it solved *much*,,, the ui & browser are cool, sure, but all the legacy functions & features that were great, they neglected to implement,,, lots of posts/threads talking about why us legacy users won't make the switch 'til they get that part right...
    bobauckland likes this.
    12-23-13 07:35 AM
  11. localexpat's Avatar
    I'm 9900 user, I was all set to buy a Z10/Q10, until I found out BB10 was not using BIS. I am owner of a small business, I travel a lot internationaly , without BIS my bills would crazy, I tried a Android once on one of my trips, I would never do that a again (almost passed out when I saw the bill).

    Until BB includes BIS as an option in BB10, I will be sticking with BB7 , I know many BB users that share my view.
    Many on here are saying BB should stop selling BB7 devices, if they did that , it would be good bye.......BB . If you are not a international traveller (holiday or business) you will never understand the importance of BIS.

    BB7(BIS) is only device that helps the self employed/small business person control costs



    Alex
    That's why I still have my 9900

    Posted via CB10
    12-23-13 07:36 AM
  12. SEAWARRIOR's Avatar
    You have to put it in to Select mode, from a menu, that's the point, it's clunky as hell.

    The BB10 way: press and hold on text to select the word, press and swipe a pin up or down to increase the selection range.

    That's 2 steps to BBOS' 4. It's obvious which is more efficient.

    BTW, you don't have to press the trackpad at all for the Quick menu on a touch screen BBOS phone, you can just touch and hold the screen. On a touch screen BBOS phone with a keyboard the screen is so small and useless it puts people off using it as a touch screen and drives them to use the touch pad, so maybe you never tried it.

    After using a Z10 I use the screen on touch screen BBOS phones so much more when I pick one up. The touch pad feels antiquated and cumbersome so I now find myself avoiding it subconsciously. But BBOS always feels disappointing overall in its responsiveness when using the screen. It soon has me reaching for the Z10 to get things done.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    i have to disagree w/ this,,, which touchscreen bbos phone are you comparing this to??? i have my trackpad setting cranked up to the "fast" setting, & it's very snappy,,, also, in my case w/ .1066, my 9850 screams on 3g & even moreso on wifi,,, i think what *may* be adding to the "clunky" feel is your connection, what you have running in the background, & how you have the settings adjusted...
    bobauckland likes this.
    12-23-13 07:47 AM
  13. johnnyuk's Avatar
    i have to disagree w/ this,,, which touchscreen bbos phone are you comparing this to??? i have my trackpad setting cranked up to the "fast" setting, & it's very snappy,,, also, in my case w/ .1066, my 9850 screams on 3g & even moreso on wifi,,, i think what *may* be adding to the "clunky" feel is your connection, what you have running in the background, & how you have the settings adjusted...
    For the full touch BBOS I'm comparing with two phones. The first is the Torch 9860, a very laggy heap of junk in my opinion. And yes I've reinstalled the OS and installed the bare minimum of apps I need installed, 70MB of app RAM free after a restart and yet still the spinning clock of "oh no you can't use me yet just because you picked me up" appears right when I need to use the phone most and still I have to reboot the phone every day to avoid running out of app RAM such are then memory leaks. The second is the Curve 9380, somehow not actually as laggy and unresponsive as the Torch 9680 when it actually has app RAM free but it runs out of it even sooner of course.

    For the physical keyboard and touch phone, the Bold 9790, which doesnt lag anywhere near as must as the Torch 9860 (odd as the internals are nearly identical) but has such a tiny screen it's quite frustrating to use for long periods and off putting for using its touch functionality.

    I used to like BBOS, been a BESAdmin for a decade at work, but BB10 opened my eyes.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    Last edited by johnnyuk; 12-23-13 at 09:06 AM.
    Omnitech likes this.
    12-23-13 08:40 AM
  14. lnichols's Avatar
    I'm 9900 user, I was all set to buy a Z10/Q10, until I found out BB10 was not using BIS. I am owner of a small business, I travel a lot internationaly , without BIS my bills would crazy, I tried a Android once on one of my trips, I would never do that a again (almost passed out when I saw the bill).

    Until BB includes BIS as an option in BB10, I will be sticking with BB7 , I know many BB users that share my view.
    Many on here are saying BB should stop selling BB7 devices, if they did that , it would be good bye.......BB . If you are not a international traveller (holiday or business) you will never understand the importance of BIS.

    BB7(BIS) is only device that helps the self employed/small business person control costs



    Alex
    I travel internationally and was worried about this as well. However, with an unlocked BB10 device, all you have to do is buy a local SIM, and the device works just like it did on your normal SIM, with the exception of voice/txt. All my email, my BBM, and apps all worked like they had before. Now with T-Mobile implementing International data coverage for free, I won't have to swap SIM cards anymorw. The voice issue can worked around with something like Google voice or similar service.

    Carriers likely had more to do with the death of BIS than anything. With 3G and 4G networks coming online and increasing capacity, as well as the carriers having to invest a lot of money to build out these networks, why would they want to pay BlackBerry $5 per customer per month to try to minimize the impact on an item that they are increasing the capacity on and trying to get ROI as quick as possible on?

    Posted via CB10
    12-23-13 08:46 AM
  15. johnnyuk's Avatar
    hmmm,,, not bashin' here but i don't think it solved *much*,,, the ui & browser are cool, sure, but all the legacy functions & features that were great, they neglected to implement,,, lots of posts/threads talking about why us legacy users won't make the switch 'til they get that part right...
    How do you like having to reboot your BBOS phone after installing/uninstalling every app?

    How do you like having to reboot your BBOS phone every day to free up app RAM eaten by memory leaks?

    How do you like having GigaBytes of storage space inside your BBOS phone that apps can't use?

    How do you like that one crashed or hung task in the Java OS of your BBOS phone can take down the whole OS requiring a battery pull?

    How do you like that at any random moment the OS can decide you are not going to use your BBOS phone for a while as instead it wants to show you the spinning clock of "stop what you're doing until I say so!"

    How do you like that OTA OS updates on BBOS phones can take 4 or 5 hours to install leaving you unable to use your phone during any of the process?

    How do you like that your BBOS phone is incapable of displaying modern 3D graphics rendering it a joke as a gaming or entertainment device?

    How do you like browsing the web on your BBOS phone without Flash or the ability to convert and display Flash video in the browser on the fly?

    Those were the fundamental problems of BBOS holding it back from being a 'modern' mobile Operating System and those were the most important problems that BB10 fixed. I'm sorry but I see all the garnish and film flam from BBOS that people whinge about being missing from BB10 as being insignificant compared to solving the problems I listed.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    12-23-13 08:53 AM
  16. johnnyuk's Avatar
    Carriers likely had more to do with the death of BIS than anything. With 3G and 4G networks coming online and increasing capacity, as well as the carriers having to invest a lot of money to build out these networks, why would they want to pay BlackBerry $5 per customer per month to try to minimize the impact on an item that they are increasing the capacity on and trying to get ROI as quick as possible on?
    Posted via CB10
    This is exactly what happened. BlackBerry went to the carriers to discuss their support for BB10 in the early days and asked what they'd like it to be like. The answer was "We don't want to pay you for BIS/BES any more."

    BlackBerry were in no position to force carriers to still pay for access to the NOC. They needed the support of carriers, however luke warm it turned out to be. The fact BlackBerry couldn't code BIS for QNX reliably was the nail in the coffin for BIS and BES data plans.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    axllebeer likes this.
    12-23-13 09:03 AM
  17. jegs2's Avatar
    If you base your bbos experience on the touch screen then that's fair enough but when most of us refer to bbos we mean qwerty, and that qwerty had a ton of shortcuts that the Q10 doesn't, at least not yet. I had a Storm 2 and lasted only 2 months on it.

    Posted via CB10
    Similarly, I had a 9850, and it lasted a little more than a month until I sold it on eBay and paid full price for a 9930, with which I'm still content. It taught me to dislike full-touch devices.

    And no, it isn't just BB, as my wife has a Note II, and I sometimes have to fiddle with it for her - and I intensely dislike doing so.
    12-23-13 09:16 AM
  18. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    hmmm,,, not bashin' here but i don't think it solved *much*
    Um - I disagree bigtime.

    - BlackBerry OS (for me) crashed and froze constantly. BlackBerry 10 had some random reboots with 10.1, but it wasn't anywhere near the same degree and that pretty much vanished with 10.2 for me.

    - As a touch-screen experience, there is no comparison between the Storm and Torch 9860 and the Z10, IMO. Z10 is clearly designed as a touchscreen device, not some unholy union of a tap-and-click OS grafted on a touch-screen. It's generally much, much more responsive, especially with a lot of apps. My Z10 is almost full and running quickly whereas my 9900 would have been choking by now.

    - The browser pretty much shatters all those "BlackBerrys can't surf the web" views. It renders faster, it supports multiple standards and is a much nicer experience.

    - The whole app install experience is much nicer. The device doesn't slow to a crawl when installing apps. It doesn't reboot every time it installs an app (waiting 10 minutes).

    - The apps themselves are much more sophisticated. The native controls are nicer. The support for effects is nicer. There's no 8 mb size limit so now you get the same types of games and apps that the big boys have.

    - A lot of the software on the device is better, IMO. The camera software is nicer, the video software is nicer, BBM is more personable and easier to navigate. The settings are amalgamated nicely in one clean spot. The search is easier for me too.

    I find the device as a whole much more pleasant to use.
    Omnitech likes this.
    12-23-13 09:20 AM
  19. d0n4lduck's Avatar
    How do you like having to reboot your BBOS phone after installing/uninstalling every app?

    How do you like having to reboot your BBOS phone every day to free up app RAM eaten by memory leaks?

    How do you like having GigaBytes of storage space inside your BBOS phone that apps can't use?

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    I could not agree more with the downsides of the BBOS that you listed down.

    Just curious on the memory leaks. Why Blackberry did not simply produce upgraded BBOS device with very large RAM to solve this problem to bridge the transition period before BB10 was launched [to maintain BBOS fans for a little while]? Is it so complicated? To me the most annoying thing is the fact that the RAM that is so tiny. I still can bear the slow browsing/ lack of flash issue.
    12-23-13 09:22 AM
  20. Bbnivende's Avatar
    The question posed in this post is why would anyone purchase a BBOS device at this point in time rather than a BB10 device. In my opinion a BBOS device with a physical keyboard sits one rung above a feature phone and one rung below a 2013 smartphone. Consumers and businesses who bought a BBOS phone this past quarter primarily use their phone to text and email. If I ever sit near a BBOS user in the airport or other public place they are busy sending or replying to emails and texts. The BBOS client base does not need an iPhone type experience or they would have not bought a new BBOS. unit.



    Sent from my Nexus 7 using CB Forums mobile app
    SEAWARRIOR likes this.
    12-23-13 09:41 AM
  21. johnnyuk's Avatar
    I think there may be a long standing legacy physical limit to the amount of memory for the storage of app .cod files that BBOS can address hence the strange amounts of available app memory that phones ended up with like 189MB... how random?!

    This article explains a lot apart from if limits exist and if so why, frustratingly.

    http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...-limit-637544/

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    12-23-13 10:29 AM
  22. SEAWARRIOR's Avatar
    For the full touch BBOS I'm comparing with two phones. The first is the Torch 9860, a very laggy heap of junk in my opinion. And yes I've reinstalled the OS and installed the bare minimum of apps I need installed, 70MB of app RAM free after a restart and yet still the spinning clock of "oh no you can't use me yet just because you picked me up" appears right when I need to use the phone most and still I have to reboot the phone every day to avoid running out of app RAM such are then memory leaks. The second is the Curve 9380, somehow not actually as laggy and unresponsive as the Torch 9680 when it actually has app RAM free but it runs out of it even sooner of course.

    For the physical keyboard and touch phone, the Bold 9790, which doesnt lag anywhere near as must as the Torch 9860 (odd as the internals are nearly identical) but has such a tiny screen it's quite frustrating to use for long periods and off putting for using its touch functionality.

    I used to like BBOS, been a BESAdmin for a decade at work, but BB10 opened my eyes.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    that's aaalllooot of apps,,, how many do you have??? i have 200+/- MB of app storage available,,, you say you're using the minimum apps you need, but sounds to me like you're "over-apped",,, w/ that many, i can guarantee the memory leak is caused by a crappy app,,, & if you're running out of ram, something is definately wrong,,, even if i don't do a reboot for a week, i rarely get below 190MB RAM...
    12-23-13 10:48 AM
  23. axllebeer's Avatar
    This is exactly what happened. BlackBerry went to the carriers to discuss their support for BB10 in the early days and asked what they'd like it to be like. The answer was "We don't want to pay you for BIS/BES any more."

    BlackBerry were in no position to force carriers to still pay for access to the NOC. They needed the support of carriers, however luke warm it turned out to be. The fact BlackBerry couldn't code BIS for QNX reliably was the nail in the coffin for BIS and BES data plans.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    This seams like a reasonable possibility to me.

    Posted Via CB10 using the power of "Q"
    12-23-13 10:55 AM
  24. xandermac's Avatar
    Agreed. People bought BB for what a BB was, not what it could be. I'll take a legacy device over BB10 any day, there are better options if I want a touchscreen and apps.

    The simple answer? Something I myself am loathe to admit: legacy OS devices are a better fit for more people.
    12-23-13 10:57 AM
  25. SEAWARRIOR's Avatar
    How do you like having to reboot your BBOS phone after installing/uninstalling every app?
    doesn't bother me,,, it gives me the option for now or later,,, since .1066 install, my boot time has improved greatly,,, (about 1m20s)...

    How do you like having to reboot your BBOS phone every day to free up app RAM eaten by memory leaks?
    i don't have this problem,,, again, i think you're over-apped, & too many are running in the backgroung causing the issues you describe...

    How do you like having GigaBytes of storage space inside your BBOS phone that apps can't use?
    i'm w/ you on this,,, i use the internal storge when i make a vid, then transfer it to sd card later if needed...

    How do you like that one crashed or hung task in the Java OS of your BBOS phone can take down the whole OS requiring a battery pull?
    i don't experience this...

    How do you like that at any random moment the OS can decide you are not going to use your BBOS phone for a while as instead it wants to show you the spinning clock of "stop what you're doing until I say so!"
    i almost never have this,,, everything you're pointing out leads me to believe you've got too much stuff running,,, go into the app manager & see who the culprits are,,, there's alot of useful info in there that'll tell you what apps are doing what & for how long...

    How do you like that OTA OS updates on BBOS phones can take 4 or 5 hours to install leaving you unable to use your phone during any of the process?
    i've NEVER taken that long,,, i can do an OTA/backup & restore in an hour,,, this sounds like a connection/network issue...

    How do you like that your BBOS phone is incapable of displaying modern 3D graphics rendering it a joke as a gaming or entertainment device?
    i don't do games on the phone much,,, when i do i usually play the less intensive ones,,, for any high power gaming i got to the playbook or pc, if i wanna destroy stuff...

    How do you like browsing the web on your BBOS phone without Flash or the ability to convert and display Flash video in the browser on the fly?
    yeah, that does suk...

    Those were the fundamental problems of BBOS holding it back from being a 'modern' mobile Operating System and those were the most important problems that BB10 fixed. I'm sorry but I see all the garnish and film flam from BBOS that people whinge about being missing from BB10 as being insignificant compared to solving the problems I listed.
    try resolving the issues you're having the way i described...
    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    Last edited by SEAWARRIOR; 12-23-13 at 11:49 AM.
    12-23-13 11:17 AM
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