02-08-14 01:31 AM
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  1. WES51's Avatar
    Do you understand that the smartphone market will have grown by about 1 billion phones this year?
    Do you understand the implications of BBOS having only about a 1% share of these 1 billion smartphones sold?
    Do you understand how shockingly unimportant and irrelevant 1% is?
    exactly. And Blackberry seems to follow the same logic.

    But to follow the same logic, it's too late now. The 99%, that you are talking about have sailed off and they won't even look back. They are gone and lost.

    Now you have to keep your short term goals close to reality, which means focus on that loyal 1%, which is still a sizable number of users.

    Blackberry is still in freefall and that 1% is a foothold.

    So for now, stabilize, tender to the 1%, give them whatever they want and grow later from here.
    12-22-13 10:52 AM
  2. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    I agree with this part. BlackBerry legacy OS had tons of problems, but when it worked, it offered a good and unique experience. It had its own advantages that weren't available on other platforms.

    BlackBerry 10 doesn't have that yet. When I owned BlackBerry 10 devices, I very rarely felt like there was a reason to use them over my other phones. The Bold 9930 + a Android device made since to me for the full length of a contract. But BlackBerry 10 + Android seemed like a waste of time for me. I simply didn't need a BlackBerry 10 device to use alongside my Android.
    It's not the typical set-up, to use 2 phones at the same time.
    Most users don't do that anymore, and especially dual-sim phones see a pretty high demand in Asian markets.

    I may understand your point, but since this is down to personal preference, and it's hard to quantify who falls in the category of users who want to have more than one device with them...
    I rather tend to ignore cases like yours, for any meaningful analysis.

    No matter what, at the end of the day BlackBerry is completely irrelevant now. As Marsupial said, they have no market share. The only thing is, BlackBerry 7 still does better than BlackBerry 10 is. BlackBerry is irrelevant and BlackBerry 10 is more irrelevant than even BlackBerry 7 is. That is an accomplish right there.
    Obviously we agree on the part of being irrelevant.
    Where I disagree, is when you say that it's an accomplishment that BB10 is even more irrelevant than BBOS.

    The barriers of entry for a new OS, in a pretty mature and saturated market are incredibly high, especially when the market is as competitive as the mobile phone market is.
    BBOS has been around for a long time, it's a product that you know, when you're older than 15 and the devices overall are cheaper than their BB10 counter-parts.
    Bundle that with epic management missteps, when the launch of BB10 happened (and before, but that's another theme), and I really don't feel like it's such a surprise where BB10 stands right now.
    Also in relation to BBOS.

    Just take the PC market as an example:
    For the consumer, the only 2 choices for an OS are MacOs or Windows.
    There's a reason why nobody even tried to enter that market for years.
    Namely, barriers of entry.
    (and don't talk about the ChromeOS, the only thing in the IT industry that's an even bigger joke than BlackBerry)

    Posted via CB10
    12-22-13 10:57 AM
  3. jegs2's Avatar
    OP, in my opinion it is because OS7 devices gives users the most BBRY Experience + 'important image' people love which somewhat lost it in OS10.
    Can't speak for others who've stuck with OS 7, but it does exactly what I want it to do for my own personal communications requirements. I don't need, nor do I want an upgrade to an OS10 device I'd have to learn about, when I'm quite comfortable with what I already have - and it works nicely.
    12-22-13 10:59 AM
  4. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    The story in the link below should give better understanding on what happen with blackberry in the emerging markets

    http://www.businessweek.com/articles...ir-blackberrys
    Don't get me wrong, but I am probably as knowledgeable after reading the article, as I was before.

    A better article to understand what happens to BlackBerry in emerging would be this one:
    http://thenextweb.com/asia/2013/06/2...annual-growth/

    Posted via CB10
    12-22-13 11:01 AM
  5. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    exactly. And Blackberry seems to follow the same logic.

    But to follow the same logic, it's too late now. The 99%, that you are talking about have sailed off and they won't even look back. They are gone and lost.

    Now you have to keep your short term goals close to reality, which means focus on that loyal 1%, which is still a sizable number of users.

    Blackberry is still in freefall and that 1% is a foothold.

    So for now, stabilize, tender to the 1%, give them whatever they want and grow later from here.
    This 1% isn't enough, not even in a short-term, to make money and to keep the company afloat.

    There are Android manufacturers with 4% marketshare and who still realise losses.
    The 1% marketshare BlackBerry has, is so irrelevant that they could stop selling handsets right now, if their only short-term goal is to clinge onto that 1%.

    You also seem to forget, that these 1% of sales are mostly sustained by enterprises and emerging markets.
    The enterprise sales won't cease to exist in any time soon.
    The story is different for emerging markets though, as an intensified price and feature war is about to completely erode BlackBerry's marketshare in emerging markets.

    Or to say it otherwise:
    BlackBerry needs cheap and capable BB10 devices, at best already yesterday.
    BlackBerry needs the feature parity with the competition and needs real high-end devices that are worth their price.
    What BlackBerry doesn't need, is to continue to cater to an ever decreasing crowd of users, namely BBOS users.

    Posted via CB10
    TgeekB likes this.
    12-22-13 11:14 AM
  6. johnnyuk's Avatar
    Yes but it was available in the BlackBerry Beta Zone for a few months before that.

    Posted via CB10
    And BB10 was available in beta to developers on prototype devices months before that. What's your point apart from scrabbling around for straws to cling to instead of just manning up and admiting it when you get something wrong? You never change do you, amusing but sad.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    12-22-13 11:27 AM
  7. johnnyuk's Avatar
    Yes, I was most pleasantly surprised to see my BB stock increase by 17%.
    For gods sake sell man sell!! Lol

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    12-22-13 11:28 AM
  8. johnnyuk's Avatar
    If they do make bb10 for Jakarta, they must make bb10 for playbook also. They must not just simply forget playbook users.
    Why on Earth must they do that?! PlayBook has already been EOL'd. It doesn't have enough RAM for BB10. You think the Jakarta device will have 1GB of RAM?

    None of that is a "good thing" or the way things should have played out for PlayBook, it had potential but suffered from catastrophic mistakes and misjudgement by RIM/BB at every stage of its life cycle.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    TgeekB likes this.
    12-22-13 11:32 AM
  9. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    And BB10 was available in beta to developers on prototype devices months before that. What's your point apart from scrabbling around for straws to cling to instead of just manning up and admiting it when you get something wrong? You never change do you, amusing but sad.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    No it wasn't, very few got hold of BB10 on their dev devices, most got basically a version of the PlayBook OS. Not that it's at all relevant to what was discussed ie BBM calling.


    Also please lay off the personal remarks.
    12-22-13 12:17 PM
  10. chalx's Avatar
    Jakarta is doomed IMHO. Low end market is even bigger slaughter than high end. Its crowded with really cheap Androids. I'm not sure BBRY even knows what cheap means. Only way BBRY could build stable foundation from which they try to compete is to create Android device with QNX player, which would be 100% compatible with variety of Android apps, which would have formal android app store with tested apps.
    anon(5828343) likes this.
    12-22-13 12:31 PM
  11. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    Jakarta is doomed IMHO. Low end market is even bigger slaughter than high end. Its crowded with really cheap Androids. I'm not sure BBRY even knows what cheap means. Only way BBRY could build stable foundation from which they try to compete is to create Android device with QNX player, which would be 100% compatible with variety of Android apps, which would have formal android app store with tested apps.
    There is nothing special about a cheap android phone...

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.1259
    12-22-13 12:49 PM
  12. TgeekB's Avatar
    There is nothing special about a cheap android phone...

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.1259
    Except that they sell.
    12-22-13 12:56 PM
  13. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    Except that they sell.
    Correct. Chen will try to change that though...

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.1259
    12-22-13 01:04 PM
  14. TgeekB's Avatar
    Correct. Chen will try to change that though...

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.1259
    I assume that is what they are doing with Foxconn and looking towards Indonesia.
    Dave Bourque likes this.
    12-22-13 01:18 PM
  15. southlander's Avatar
    In the end it doesn't matter why, what it matter is that it does, they can bang on about BB10 all they want, only a small minority of their user base actually uses one.

    They're failing to adapt to the reality.

    The only way BB10 will have a chance if it completely clones the Legacy experience including the ability to run Legacy apps that people have paid good money for.

    Stop messing about and give users what they want.

    Posted via CB10
    I think why is very important. BlackBerry can't address issues without knowing "why" BlackBerry 10 is failing to catch on.

    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1259
    GadgetTravel likes this.
    12-22-13 01:19 PM
  16. johnnyuk's Avatar
    No it wasn't, very few got hold of BB10 on their dev devices, most got basically a version of the PlayBook OS. Not that it's at all relevant to what was discussed ie BBM calling.
    Oh I get it so "very few" means it didn't happen? Do you realise how few people will have publicly beta tested BBM 7 for BBOS last year? Most people wouldn't even know that you could. Does that mean it didn't happen either? You must spend a lot of time getting sand out of your ears the number of times a day your bury your head in it.

    That "basically a version of the PlayBook OS" WAS the early versions of BB10 until they got around to changing the UI, but that doesn't mean that the features and functionality of BB10, including BBM for BB10, weren't being beta tested. Shaking. My. Head.

    Also please lay off the personal remarks.
    It would be easy to if it wasn't for the fact that every thread you crop up in decends in to nonsensical gibberish and whining as if somehow BlackBerry owe you something.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    Dave Bourque and MarsupilamiX like this.
    12-22-13 01:22 PM
  17. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    I think why is very important. BlackBerry can't address issues without knowing "why" BlackBerry 10 is failing to catch on.

    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1259
    I think they know very well why by now, the question is what are they gonna do about it?
    12-22-13 01:26 PM
  18. GeneralHerzog's Avatar
    Lots of Enterprise customers are going with uber cheap, rebuilt OS7 units.
    My company for one, has a love affair with refurbished Telus POS'.
    This keeps the OS numbers game up.
    I'm working feverishly to get them on the BB10 game but it's a hard sell with Telus spewing out such cheap OS7 units.

    I imagine this is mirrored all over the world.
    The sooner BBRY stops servicing old OS devices and forces a move to BB10, the sooner off we'll be.

    From my Vader Zed
    12-22-13 01:27 PM
  19. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Lots of Enterprise customers are going with uber cheap, rebuilt OS7 units.
    My company for one, has a love affair with refurbished Telus POS'.
    This keeps the OS numbers game up.
    I'm working feverishly to get them on the BB10 game but it's a hard sell with Telus spewing out such cheap OS7 units.

    I imagine this is mirrored all over the world.
    The sooner BBRY stops servicing old OS devices and forces a move to BB10, the sooner off we'll be.

    From my Vader Zed
    The moment they do that they'll lose those companies.
    12-22-13 01:35 PM
  20. anon(5828343)'s Avatar
    Jakarta is doomed IMHO. Low end market is even bigger slaughter than high end. Its crowded with really cheap Androids. I'm not sure BBRY even knows what cheap means. Only way BBRY could build stable foundation from which they try to compete is to create Android device with QNX player, which would be 100% compatible with variety of Android apps, which would have formal android app store with tested apps.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head. The low end is crowded with devices that are so cheap yet offer far more to consumers at that end of the spectrum in terms of apps that this move is doomed to failure.

    The problem, for BBRY, though, is they have zero ability to compete at the high end either since for the price, consumers at that end of the spectrum require capabilities which BB10 is incapable of offering.

    I also fail to understand what the strategy is. On the one hand, BBRY talks enterprise and prosumer and on the other hand, it launches its first device under their new strategic partnership at the low end and focusing it on consumers in emerging markets.

    What I'm afraid of is BBRY today is as confused as BBRY under Heins. Too much sucking and blowing at the same time.
    12-22-13 01:44 PM
  21. d0n4lduck's Avatar
    This 1% isn't enough, not even in a short-term, to make money and to keep the company afloat.

    There are Android manufacturers with 4% marketshare and who still realise losses.
    The 1% marketshare BlackBerry has, is so irrelevant that they could stop selling handsets right now, if their only short-term goal is to clinge onto that 1%.

    You also seem to forget, that these 1% of sales are mostly sustained by enterprises and emerging markets.
    The enterprise sales won't cease to exist in any time soon.
    The story is different for emerging markets though, as an intensified price and feature war is about to completely erode BlackBerry's marketshare in emerging markets.

    Or to say it otherwise:
    BlackBerry needs cheap and capable BB10 devices, at best already yesterday.
    BlackBerry needs the feature parity with the competition and needs real high-end devices that are worth their price.
    What BlackBerry doesn't need, is to continue to cater to an ever decreasing crowd of users, namely BBOS users.

    Posted via CB10
    I don't think the existing bbos users would move to bb10 devices, no matter how cheap it would be, as long as the bbos features are not integrated to the bb10. Thus, the next cheap bb10 devices would only be launched for acquiring new user base or at least maintaining the existing non enterprise user base, which blackberry hope will be coming from emerging market.

    In emerging market, the lack of bis data plan in bb10 may be an issue. In indonesia for example, full bis data plan is priced at around usd 10 monthly or usd 50 cent daily. The lack of this feature may erode bb fans from buying new cheap bb10 devices.

    From reading the thread, i think it is more on the technological/ technical development issue on how come the bbos features cannot be integrated in the new bb10. Cant it be done at all?

    I imagine that from the former bbos users leaving bb to join other platform creating the current 99% market share has their own reasons when leaving blackberry. I am sure that among them there are many that migrate because their frustation on the downside of the bbos (freeze often, lack of ram, slow browsing), but still appreciate and enjoy the bbos upside features (keyboard, trackpad, physical button, bis). They migrated because their frustation overcome their enjoyment in using bbos and there is no new bbos devices that can solve their frustrations.

    If blackberry wants to survive, i can agree with your two points, but would like to add the third one: integrating bbos upside features to bb10 devices, especially bis for the emerging market (and the others for enterprise users). Otherwise consumers would prefer cheap android rather than cheap bb10 devices due to attraction from the more well known platform (while bis / capped data plan is the comparative advantage that blackberry has over cheap android, and also for their continuing after sales revenue). For enterprise users, they may stuck with bbos devices until another competitor can come up with a more stable system.

    The next big question is: is it technically possible from tech point of view? If it is, how long they need to launch it to be able to stay in the game?

    I do hope they will survive.
    12-22-13 01:49 PM
  22. johnnyuk's Avatar
    I also fail to understand what the strategy is. On the one hand, BBRY talks enterprise and prosumer and on the other hand, it launches its first device under their new strategic partnership at the low end and focusing it on consumers in emerging markets.
    BlackBerry needs a true low end priced BB10 phone for the Enterprise too, not all companies want to buy all their employees a secure phone at premium prices. By true low end I mean not a written-down Z10 that BlackBerry have already lost money on, but a low end phone that at least breaks even for them when sold.

    Hopefully despite talking about the Jakarta device being for the "emerging markets" it will also be an option for Enterprise elsewhere. BlackBerry talked about the Q5 and 9720 as being for "emerging markets" but they cropped up all over the place in the Western world all the same.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    Last edited by johnnyuk; 12-22-13 at 02:11 PM.
    12-22-13 01:57 PM
  23. d0n4lduck's Avatar
    I think you've hit the nail on the head. The low end is crowded with devices that are so cheap yet offer far more to consumers at that end of the spectrum in terms of apps that this move is doomed to failure.

    The problem, for BBRY, though, is they have zero ability to compete at the high end either since for the price, consumers at that end of the spectrum require capabilities which BB10 is incapable of offering.

    I also fail to understand what the strategy is. On the one hand, BBRY talks enterprise and prosumer and on the other hand, it launches its first device under their new strategic partnership at the low end and focusing it on consumers in emerging markets.

    What I'm afraid of is BBRY today is as confused as BBRY under Heins. Too much sucking and blowing at the same time.
    If they manage to include the bis feature for the low end bb10 devices, i guess they may still have some slight chance. From the news that i shared earlier you can see how indonesian low end user base like to chat a lot and with the bis data plan they can chat via bbm unlimited, as opposed to using whatsapp. Otherwise, i am afraid i may have to agree with you.
    12-22-13 01:59 PM
  24. GadgetTravel's Avatar
    I think they know very well why by now, the question is what are they gonna do about it?
    If I had to guess I would say they probably don't have a clue as to why it failed.
    12-22-13 02:02 PM
  25. johnnyuk's Avatar
    For enterprise users, they may stuck with bbos devices until another competitor can come up with a more stable system.
    Sorry, why do you think that BB10 isn't stable in the workplace? Besides that beyond email BBOS is very limited in how useful it can be in the workplace. My BB10 users on my BES10 server love their BB10 phones compared to the BBOS phones they had to endure last year.

    The next big question is: is it technically possible from tech point of view? If it is, how long they need to launch it to be able to stay in the game?
    As far as implementing BIS on QNX/BB10 BlackBerry already tried that at the beginning and hit so many difficulties, performance problems and show stopping road blocks that the idea had to be scrapped. So I'd call that a no.


    Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK
    12-22-13 02:06 PM
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