[anon(5828343)]

When any manufacturer fails to offer consumers a compelling reason to "upgrade" to their new product, why is it a surprise that people stick with an older product that is both a known quantity and cheaper?

I personally know at least 3 people who switched back from BB10 to BBOS after trying the Q10. The fact that they stuck with BB after their disappointment with BB10 is what surprised me.

[Omnitech]

why so many more BB7 devices are being sold than BB10 I think them dropping legacy support goes a long way to explaining this, if not most of it.

As far as I am concerned, the answer is simple:

BB10 flopped.

And it did NOT flop "Becuz becuz becuz... legacy OS!!!".

It flopped because it was a poor effort, saddled with delays and flaws and bad marketing and poor corporate communication and poor carrier support and poor support in general - and missing functionality NOT from legacy BBOS, but features that all its other intended competitors already had.

[GadgetTravel]

It may be getting there, but it isn't there yet. Plus paying $50-100 per month for roaming data is a lot more than what the BES subscription cost. Maybe not when you compare someone who only travels occasionally yet pays the BES cost every month, but for someone who travels regularly then its a factor.

Regardless, I was never arguing of EAS vs BES, just saying they should never have just abandoned BES when it was already embedded in enterprises. Let them use and pay for it if they want and support other protocols if they are required.

I was comparing cost for international roaming with BIS to current pricing. I never had BES. In the case of BIS the international plans aren't much different. I was traveling internationally almost monthly.

[MarsupilamiX]

As far as I am concerned, the answer is simple:

BB10 flopped.

And it did NOT flop "Becuz becuz becuz... legacy OS!!!".

It flopped because it was a poor effort, saddled with delays and flaws and bad marketing and poor corporate communication and poor carrier support and poor support in general - and missing functionality NOT from legacy BBOS, but features that all its other intended competitors already had.

I probably couldn't agree more.
This is exactly the same page of the book called smartphone history, I am on.

I still like my Z10 though.
My next phone, at least if BlackBerry doesn't make a real flagship (not the Z30, that's a midrange device) won't be a BlackBerry though.
I do have to say that without BB10, I wouldn't have bought another BlackBerry after my 9810...

Posted via CB10

[Dave Bourque]

I do have to say that without BB10, I wouldn't have bought another BlackBerry after my 9810...
Posted via CB10

And this is why there is still a chance for BlackBerry to get back in the game... Its extremely tiring to see people repeat the same lines because they don't want BlackBerry to attempt a rebound whatsoever.

[FF22]

I guess we both have differing definitions of "a lot".
When 99% of buyers, didn't chose a BBOS device and 1% did, then I am rather inclined to say that it isn't a lot.



The keyboard is pretty dead, that wasn't too soon.
There is a certain niche, that is willing to sacrifice screen real estate for a physical keyboard...
But that nicht is getting smaller and smaller.

The trackpad, at least for the other 99% of smartphone buyers this year, is as dead and obsolete as something could even be.
The dedicated row for call buttons as well. Nobody implements them anymore.
Dedicated hardware buttons per se, aren't though.

I am not sure if I disagree or agree with your second paragraph...
But since the introduction of BB10, I am very convinced that BlackBerry should have abandoned BBOS completely.
Yes, support your existing enterprise customers, but apart from that, they should have declared the OS EOL.
BlackBerry competing with itself was a dumb decision.

Posted via CB10

Again, we are all entitled to our opinions. You firmly believe keyboard are dead and maybe they are for you and apple users but there seem to be issues for BB where keyboard devices are still KING. I don't know how many "old" users of bb7 and earlier are still out there, refusing to convert but they seem to be in the high millions. And a few more million are still opting for them in newer devices.

There are still those pining for another slider - best of both worlds for those who want more screen but still want a keyboard.

"The Trackpad is dead, long live the Trackpad!"

[Phoner6]

Most people are unaware of BB10's existance. When they think of blackberry all they know are the words "curve" and "bold" for today's products.

[MarsupilamiX]

And this is why there is still a chance for BlackBerry to get back in the game... Its extremely tiring to see people repeat the same lines because they don't want BlackBerry to attempt a rebound whatsoever.

I had an OG Droid, some time before going to a 9810.
I liked sliders and creative concepts on how to implement keyboards into phones, since a long time.

I had several Nokia Communicators for example and really loved them.
I even had the odd WM device a long time ago, but it actually was one that looks fairly similar to the Torch.


In any case, coming back to my Motorola OG Droid and 9810 tale, I actually felt that my year(s) older Droid, performed better in most tasks than my 9810...
But the keyboard and privacy settings on my 9810 were enough to let me endure it until BB10 was there...

Saying that, I still hope for a BB10 slider and I hope that BlackBerry as a whole continues to strive forward with their new OS and doesn't stop making devices.

Posted via CB10

[Phoner6]

I had an OG Droid, some time before going to a 9810.
I liked sliders and creative concepts on how to implement keyboards into phones, since a long time.

I had several Nokia Communicators for example and really loved them.
I even had the odd WM device a long time ago, but it actually was one that looks fairly similar to the Torch.
http://www.chip.de/ii/159739493_9a304dcd07.jpg

In any case, coming back to my Motorola OG Droid and 9810 tale, I actually felt that my year(s) older Droid, performed better in most tasks than my 9810...
But the keyboard and privacy settings on my 9810 were enough to let me endure it until BB10 was there...

Saying that, I still hope for a BB10 slider and I hope that BlackBerry as a whole continues to strive forward with their new OS and doesn't stop making devices.

Posted via CB10

Hey can I ask how did internet work back in the day on them WM phones? I mean was it practical - was the speed good enough and did you get enough data you needed for a decent price? Did you have wifi?

[MarsupilamiX]

Again, we are all entitled to our opinions. You firmly believe keyboard are dead and maybe they are for you and apple users but there seem to be issues for BB where keyboard devices are still KING. I don't know how many "old" users of bb7 and earlier are still out there, refusing to convert but they seem to be in the high millions. And a few more million are still opting for them in newer devices.

There are still those pining for another slider - best of both worlds for those who want more screen but still want a keyboard.

"The Trackpad is dead, long live the Trackpad!"

It's not an opinion that the keyboard and the trackpad are irrelevant in the current market paradigm.

My opinion on keyboards vastly differs from the way the market sees them, btw. My opinion on keyboards, is that I like them and think that they are awesome.
I'd buy a Q10 just for fun, if it is cheap enough.

A fact would be that at least 98.5% (marketshare of non-BlackBerries) of phones sold, don't have a keyboard or a trackpad.
This fact actually proves another fact:
98.5% of smartphones buyers don't see a keyboard or a trackpad as a must-have item.

Of course this is an analysis of the current status quo, and maybe the trackpad, a slider, or a keyboard will make a comeback.
But in the here and now, it's not an opinion to say that these items are dead and irrelevant. These are facts.

Posted via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

Hey can I ask how did internet work back in the day on them WM phones? I mean was it practical - was the speed good enough and did you get enough data you needed for a decent price? Did you have wifi?

The model I had, the T-Mobile MDA 3, had Wlan and GPRS (IIRC).
GPRS is about as fast, as... Well, I have no good analogy right now, it was slow as eff.

It was also a time where mobile Internet pages were.... Ehm.... underdeveloped, slow, and you had to type in wap.xxxxxx.com to get some pages to open.

Data was really expensive. As in, extremely expensive.
But since you had something akin to a 56k modem in your phone, it wasn't like you could use a lot of data anyway.
The Wlan was an awesome feature though and made browsing bearable.

My WM device was mostly used for emails, not really for browsing.
But I guess it was ok for the time.
The OS itself was pretty fluid as well, but clunky and unusable without a stylus if you wanted to use the touchscreen.
It was another time back then (nearly 10 years ago, wow)

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[Kingdmen]

We're at 16 pages, how are you people still following right now ... I get bored of a topic after the second page

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[bobo616]

I am a z10 owner, previously an iphone 4 owner and have never previously owned a blackberry before. I believe I am the consumer market that blackberry were trying to reach when the released bb10. I love my z10 as it is the best phone I have ever owned but I think blackberry is always going to struggle to find its place in today's market now for the reasons below:

1. My perception is that bb7 did certain core tasks that a lot of existing users need better than bb10
2. Current app situation is not up to par with iOS and android
3. Lack of marketing and awareness around bb10
4. Poor brand reputation with general public
5. Bb10 too complicated for a lot of people
6. Price of bb10 was too high at launch

I think blackberry tried to get more general consumers to buy bb10 as this is a much bigger market than their existing user base so they decided that the key functionality that made blackberry users unique wasn't as important as attracting new customers as myself.

However, I think that the average consumer still believes that blackberry still has a bad user experience from the bb7 days due to the poor brand reputation and lack of marketing as they are not aware of bb10 and don't care about the core functionality of existing bb7 blackberrys, they may not even know about this functionality, I didn't.

If they are prepared to try bb10 then a lot of average users will find the gestures difficult as they aren't used to them and this is the key point that a very large amount of users that use smartphones are not smart and don't use a lot of their functionality, they just want something simple that does a few things easily. Thus ios and android fit the bill.

If you have a user that likes the experience but then wants a certain popular app the likely chance is that it isn't available although there may be alternatives or it may be addressed with apk loading this is not what most users want.

I have accepted that as a bb10 user I will be a niche market but from a business point of view I don't understand how this niche market will return profit of a large scale.

[qwerty4ever]

99% of the market wants a phone that doesn't perform like a BBOS device...
It's a no-brainer, looking at BB10 as a business decision from BlackBerry,
to try to tap into that market.

Posted via CB10

BlackBerry OS 10 is definitely a departure from the legacy mobile operating system and environment. If I wanted an Apple iOS or Google Android experience I would have bought something other than BlackBerry.

Posted via the BlackBerry Q5 using CB10.

[qwerty4ever]

they need a lumia 520 device basically. the q5 just wasnt it

You're right. The BlackBerry Q5 is the BlackBerry Bold 9700/9780/9790 while the BlackBerry Q10 is the BlackBerry 9000 equivalent. However, in my opinion BlackBerry shouldn't be catering to the low-income crowd. The pricing of the BlackBerry 10 smartphones has been a significant barrier to adoption across all income demographics and all markets around the world. For example, if the BlackBerry Q5 had been priced USD250.00 off-contract the uptake would have been much better in Canada as well as Indonesia.

Posted via the BlackBerry Q5 using CB10.

[qwerty4ever]

I'm 9900 user, I was all set to buy a Z10/Q10, until I found out BB10 was not using BIS.

BB7(BIS) is only device that helps the self employed/small business person control costs

Alex

Yet people were complaining their BlackBerry smartphones were slow because of data compression provided by BlackBerry Internet Service. Perhaps there does need to be an option to enable a BIS-type service on-demand for those times when slower performance is acceptable. This feature could be implemented in a manner similar to how we currently can enable WiFi instead of the carrier network. In fact the more I think about it the more sense a BIS-type service makes sense. However, no segregated BIS data plans, please. BlackBerry could offer it as a subscription service.

Posted via the BlackBerry Q5 using CB10.

[Troy Tiscareno]

For example, if the BlackBerry Q5 had been priced USD250.00 off-contract the uptake would have been much better in Canada as well as Indonesia.

The problem with that is that $250 is close to the production cost of the phone, leaving no additional revenue for R&D, shipping, advertising, support, or profit. And given that, unlike BBOS, BB10 phones have no after-sales service revenue (aka BIS fees) associated with them, BB needs to cover all expenses and still make a profit at the time of sale if they intend to stay in the device business.

Luckily, the price of RAM is slowly dropping, but having a 2 GB RAM minimum requirement really makes it hard to make an entry-level (and entry-priced) BB10 device. I doubt most people on this forum would be happy with whatever the Jakarta device is - your expectations are way too high to be happy with a device that's going to have to meet the price-point that Jakarta will have to meet and still be profitable. But that's the point: people in the target markets have lower expectations. The bad thing for BB is that those expectations are rising quickly, as the quality of sub-$150 Android phones continues to improve at a rapid pace.

The Moto G is a bit higher than that in the US ($179), but it blows other phones at that price-point out of the water. BB/FoxConn is still going to have a rough go at it in those markets I think.

[Dave Bourque]

The problem with that is that $250 is close to the production cost of the phone, leaving no additional revenue for R&D, shipping, advertising, support, or profit. And given that, unlike BBOS, BB10 phones have no after-sales service revenue (aka BIS fees) associated with them, BB needs to cover all expenses and still make a profit at the time of sale if they intend to stay in the device business.

Luckily, the price of RAM is slowly dropping, but having a 2 GB RAM minimum requirement really makes it hard to make an entry-level (and entry-priced) BB10 device. I doubt most people on this forum would be happy with whatever the Jakarta device is - your expectations are way too high to be happy with a device that's going to have to meet the price-point that Jakarta will have to meet and still be profitable. But that's the point: people in the target markets have lower expectations. The bad thing for BB is that those expectations are rising quickly, as the quality of sub-$150 Android phones continues to improve at a rapid pace.

The Moto G is a bit higher than that in the US ($179), but it blows other phones at that price-point out of the water. BB/FoxConn is still going to have a rough go at it in those markets I think.

They'll find a way. To make a cheap BB10 phone.

Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.1259

[mossa210]

Here in Middle East, the most important thing for the BlackBerry users is BBM

And the app of BBM in BB10 still miss a lot of things

I faced people downgrade from Q10 to 9900 doe to that reason

Posted via CB10

[Omnitech]

I still like my Z10 though. [...]

I do have to say that without BB10, I wouldn't have bought another BlackBerry after my 9810...

As do I, both of my Z10s.

You firmly believe keyboard are dead and maybe they are for you and apple users but there seem to be issues for BB where keyboard devices are still KING. I don't know how many "old" users of bb7 and earlier are still out there, refusing to convert but they seem to be in the high millions. And a few more million are still opting for them in newer devices.

I'd be willing to wager significant money that RIM/BlackBerry knows exactly what proportion of their userbase, former userbase, and general public clamor for that. Unfortunately in places like this it far too easy to be taken-in by a few squeaky wheels.

And if it were as high as a lot of the partisans here think, they would probably not even bother with full-touch devices.

I did find it interesting that Heins really thought he would sell "tens of millions" of Q10s. Given what people have been saying here about a continued high number of legacy devices in enterprises (I didn't realize it was that high), perhaps that's the group he thought would go for it. He may have either overestimated their interest or underestimated the barriers that Blackberry erected to make transitioning legacy BES systems to BES10.

Saying that, I still hope for a BB10 slider...

As do I. And not some mediocre thing, but a GREAT slider.

Here BlackBerry Blade, come to papa...

(They can't complain about the challenges of a curved screen any more - the competition already released those...)

[Omnitech]

having a 2 GB RAM minimum requirement really makes it hard to make an entry-level (and entry-priced) BB10 device. I doubt most people on this forum would be happy with whatever the Jakarta device is - your expectations are way too high to be happy with a device that's going to have to meet the price-point that Jakarta will have to meet and still be profitable.

A year has passed, significant time in the chip process shrinkage universe.

2GB is the new 1GB. I don't think that will be the determining factor.

Chen said Friday he's OK making low margin or even parity on entry-level handsets. We shall see. He definitely sounds like he knows what he's doing. The great thing about turning over a lot of the elements to Foxconn is that they already have the necessary scale to keep costs down. I don't know about component procurement, pity we can't tag along on some of Apple and Samsung's component orders.

[darkehawke]

As far as I am concerned, the answer is simple:

BB10 flopped.

And it did NOT flop "Becuz becuz becuz... legacy OS!!!".

It flopped because it was a poor effort, saddled with delays and flaws and bad marketing and poor corporate communication and poor carrier support and poor support in general - and missing functionality NOT from legacy BBOS, but features that all its other intended competitors already had.

I think this sums it up really

Posted via CB10

[stevenjamesclark]

Because it's cheaper. If BB10 was the same price as BOS7 would you take the old OS?

Posted via CB10

[Omnitech]

I think this sums it up really

Yep, if BB10 had sold anywhere close to the numbers the company was hoping for, the percentage of sales attributed to legacy OS at this point would be so comparatively small there would be little reason to even be discussing it here today.

Here in Middle East, the most important thing for the BlackBerry users is BBM

And the app of BBM in BB10 still miss a lot of things

I faced people downgrade from Q10 to 9900 doe to that reason

Still missing features? Interesting.

Not having personally used BBM on the legacy platform, I guess I'm curious which features those would be.

I know that there have been various NEW features added to BBM that didn't originally exist on the old platform, like Channels, voice chat, screen sharing, etc.

[belfastdispatcher]

Yep, if BB10 had sold anywhere close to the numbers the company was hoping for, the percentage of sales attributed to legacy OS at this point would be so comparatively small there would be little reason to even be discussing it here today.





Still missing features? Interesting.

Not having personally used BBM on the legacy platform, I guess I'm curious which features those would be.

I know that there have been various NEW features added to BBM that didn't originally exist on the old platform, like Channels, voice chat, screen sharing, etc.

Voice chat was on the legacy BBM a long time before BB10 came out.

Posted via CB10