[FF22]

Also people who are still using OS7 after all this time in spite of newer more stable offerings might just be a tiny bit resistant to change.

I work with one of these people and my sister is also one of these people. She knows how OS7 works, doesn't want to learn another OS.

Posted via CB10

Maybe because all The Touchscreen boosters declared the keyboard, home row and trackpad dead before its time. Are the OS7 devices really that much cheaper than the Z10 at this time?

A lot of BB users needed reliable devices and not the flash of a new OS. Maybe also for the same reason people don't abandon Apple or Android, they don't abandon "traditional" BB devices - investments in apps and in learning. BB10 is competing not only with the two A's but the double BB's.

[xanadome]

Well we'd need to see a breakdown of where those BB7 devices are selling to know if its the developing markets that are moving two thirds to three quarters of the total handsets that Blackberry sold in the last quarter. If the developing markets are the only places that Blackberry are selling right now then I think the outlook is even worse for BB as it means the developed markets are essentially lost forever.

Yes, I always wanted to see this breakdown. If the breakdown of emerging market sales vs. enterprise sales is not available, at least the Curve vs. Bold type comparison, which should tell a lot of story. But from what I hear from small samples, there are many legacy holdouts in the enterprise market.

[Omnitech]

EAS works by having the handset poll the server with a request asking if it is there and then the server will return that request either with an update saying there is a new mail to collect or before the timeout to ensure the connection remains live. It requires about 20MB a month per handset to maintain this constant connection, it is not true push like Blackberry which worked with the carriers to implement.

That's not how EAS works. The only purpose of the periodic keepalive packet coming from the endpoint is to keep the TCP session open. The session can live for up to about 45 minutes or so, after which it is torn down and re-established again. Most good stateful firewalls will close a long-term open TCP connection/session/socket within 30 minutes anyway, so trying to keep it alive for much longer is generally pointless. A lot of crappy home networking products might close it in just 2 minutes.

The whole point of keeping the socket open is so that the SERVER can PUSH any updates to the endpoint over that already-open connection. There is no polling, unless it is forced to do so because of network elements that prevent long-term open TCP sessions.

That's one of the things that makes EAS so superior to IMAP. IMAP is very "dumb" about this, and while it uses a similiar "long-term open TCP session" system, not only does it require a separate open TCP session for every synced folder, it also cannot handle network elements with short TCP session timeouts (EAS uses a step-down mechanism where it will start with a longer window and progressively step-down to determine the max the link supports), and neither does IMAP support all the other EAS functionality like calendar, contacts, notes, endpoint management, etc.

[xanadome]

didn't ignore your other post, but it was too long for me to respond in a thoughtful way right now.
I will adress it tomorrow.

I know I write too much too long :-(.
My excuse is that I am not a native speaker, and never learned how to write concisely in English, LOL. I write like a chatting.
You do not "have to" respond to my post. I am not challenging anybody, but simply stating my thoughts :-).

[Omnitech]

If JaveME is gone why not rewrite for another OS instead of BB10 which is a fledgling OS in the market?

And which one would you propose that to be?

iOS? (impossible)
Android? (corporate suicide)
WP8? (more corporate suicide)
Symbian? (laughing here)
Tizen? (don't even go there)
FirefoxOS? (Doesn't even have basic functionality yet)

Hmm??

[MarsupilamiX]

Alot of people still like OS 7.

I guess we both have differing definitions of "a lot".
When 99% of buyers, didn't chose a BBOS device and 1% did, then I am rather inclined to say that it isn't a lot.

Maybe because all The Touchscreen boosters declared the keyboard, home row and trackpad dead before its time. Are the OS7 devices really that much cheaper than the Z10 at this time?

A lot of BB users needed reliable devices and not the flash of a new OS. Maybe also for the same reason people don't abandon Apple or Android, they don't abandon "traditional" BB devices - investments in apps and in learning. BB10 is competing not only with the two A's but the double BB's.

The keyboard is pretty dead, that wasn't too soon.
There is a certain niche, that is willing to sacrifice screen real estate for a physical keyboard...
But that nicht is getting smaller and smaller.

The trackpad, at least for the other 99% of smartphone buyers this year, is as dead and obsolete as something could even be.
The dedicated row for call buttons as well. Nobody implements them anymore.
Dedicated hardware buttons per se, aren't though.

I am not sure if I disagree or agree with your second paragraph...
But since the introduction of BB10, I am very convinced that BlackBerry should have abandoned BBOS completely.
Yes, support your existing enterprise customers, but apart from that, they should have declared the OS EOL.
BlackBerry competing with itself was a dumb decision.

Posted via CB10

[redlightblinking]

I think it was a great response to a serious market problem called "network effects".


But not a "creative" response. More like "obvious".

I think you might underestimate just how difficult it is to break into the smartphone market today with a completely new platform.



Why? I've never made any such comment about that. In fact, I've been known to make statements about how any new phone makers are doomed, no matter how good they are, if they require a new ecosystem. We are basically locked in for eternity with the current phones since no one else can come to market with apps for their own system unless they can run someone else's apps.

[MarsupilamiX]

I'm not saying they shouldn't have supported EAS, I'm saying they shouldn't have replaced BES5 push email with it, why not be able to add accounts of both types (and more) to a handset? For companies that retain strict security and only allowed BB7 handsets, opening up EAS simply means they could in turn consider every other handset in the market. If BB10 supported BES5 push email then those companies would never have had to enable EAS and they would still be able to only offer Blackberry devices to their staff.


Well we'd need to see a breakdown of where those BB7 devices are selling to know if its the developing markets that are moving two thirds to three quarters of the total handsets that Blackberry sold in the last quarter. If the developing markets are the only places that Blackberry are selling right now then I think the outlook is even worse for BB as it means the developed markets are essentially lost forever. You only need to look at the success of the Nokia 520 range so see how price can be such a factor, however I think this is still a very consumer focussed view. Enterprise will buy what works with their systems, especially if they have policies around which devices can be used.

I am sure that there are odd places (as in, not following the norm) where BBOS still sells when we talk about consumers, like the UK.

But as a whole, from the data I have, I very much doubt that BBOS still sells "well" (and "well" must be the biggest euphemism I have ever used in here) in "developed"nations, when it's not to enterprise customers.

I completely agree with your statement about BlackBerry being on trouble, when we talk about emerging markets.
An article I quoted often, but still tells the important point you make, and I agree with, would be this one:
http://thenextweb.com/asia/2013/06/2...annual-growth/

Yes, I always wanted to see this breakdown. If the breakdown of emerging market sales vs. enterprise sales is not available, at least the Curve vs. Bold type comparison, which should tell a lot of story. But from what I hear from small samples, there are many legacy holdouts in the enterprise market.

Somewhere between 40-50% of BlackBerry sales, happen in emerging markets.
Knowing that these emerging markets have about 10-50 times a smaller GDP per capita than US has, it's pretty easy to say that it's an economic necessity that most of the devices sold there, are cheaper BBOS ones.

In China, the avg selling price of an Android phone is at about 230$, for Q3 of 2013.
This includes everything from a Samsung Note 3, to a Huawei "whatever".
http://www.techinasia.com/q3-2013-ch...ndroid-phones/

Posted via CB10

[johnnyuk]

And ironically their cross platform BES does not support their own BBOS platform.

Posted via CB10

BES10 does when you use it in conjunction with a BES5 server. The two software solutions can now even be installed on the same server if required. I have built several BES5 and BES10 servers and manage many BBOS, BB10, iOS and Android devices in my workplace using BES10.

Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK

[johnnyuk]

Until BB includes BIS as an option in BB10, I will be sticking with BB7 , I know many BB users that share my view.
Many on here are saying BB should stop selling BB7 devices, if they did that , it would be good bye.......BB . If you are not a international traveller (holiday or business) you will never understand the importance of BIS.

BB7(BIS) is only device that helps the self employed/small business person control costs.

Alex

BIS is never going to be an option on BB10, it's not programmed in to it and from what i can remember when BlackBerry tried to code for BIS on the QNX core of BB10 they hit all kinds of major performance problems and things that just flat out couldn't work.

You have to appreciate that in BBOS BlackBerry make their own proprietary OS kernel and could design it around how their own proprietary BIS and BES infrastructure worked. The off the shelf QNX kernel of BB10 knows nothing of the NOC infrastructure.

Yes if you are an international traveler BIS saves you money. The trouble is that's not enough people to justify BlackBerry keeping phones that use BIS around much longer, they don't make BlackBerry enough sales and service revenue money any more. BIS phones are an ever decreasing market, they need to transition people to BB10 but they haven't marketed well enough to make it happen so far.

Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK

[redlightblinking]

I guess we both have differing definitions of "a lot".
When 99% of buyers, didn't chose a BBOS device and 1% did, then I am rather inclined to say that it isn't a lot.

I think it's pretty obvious he was referring to BB users, not the entire world population.

The keyboard is pretty dead, that wasn't too soon.
There is a certain niche, that is willing to sacrifice screen real estate for a physical keyboard...
But that nicht is getting smaller and smaller.

Not necessarily. Perhaps in relation to overall users...of which the base keeps getting larger...but people still miss them, so much so that someone is making a keyboard for the iphone.

The trackpad, at least for the other 99% of smartphone buyers this year, is as dead and obsolete as something could even be.

Right...just like the mouse and trackpad on a laptop. Nobody uses them or makes them. Dead and obsolete are two different things.

But since the introduction of BB10, I am very convinced that BlackBerry should have abandoned BBOS completely.

Which would leave them with even fewer customers. Brilliant. Why don't you just hand the building keys to Google now....make it easier.

Yes, support your existing enterprise customers, but apart from that, they should have declared the OS EOL.
BlackBerry competing with itself was a dumb decision.

Posted via CB10

Or supporting itself. Not so dumb. The question is....which is the competition....BB10 or BBOS?

If they abandoned BBOS and just forced those users to have a downgraded ios/Android hybrid in endless beta....why would they stay? They'd have even less users. I can't be (and I know I'm not) alone. BBOS is the only life support keeping the oxygen flowing until BB10 can get some basic features back and covert the majority of BB users.

[Infamy79]

That's not how EAS works. The only purpose of the periodic keepalive packet coming from the endpoint is to keep the TCP session open. The session can live for up to about 45 minutes or so, after which it is torn down and re-established again. Most good stateful firewalls will close a long-term open TCP connection/session/socket within 30 minutes anyway, so trying to keep it alive for much longer is generally pointless. A lot of crappy home networking products might close it in just 2 minutes.

The whole point of keeping the socket open is so that the SERVER can PUSH any updates to the endpoint over that already-open connection. There is no polling, unless it is forced to do so because of network elements that prevent long-term open TCP sessions.

That's one of the things that makes EAS so superior to IMAP. IMAP is very "dumb" about this, and while it uses a similiar "long-term open TCP session" system, not only does it require a separate open TCP session for every synced folder, it also cannot handle network elements with short TCP session timeouts (EAS uses a step-down mechanism where it will start with a longer window and progressively step-down to determine the max the link supports), and neither does IMAP support all the other EAS functionality like calendar, contacts, notes, endpoint management, etc.

I agree that my description of EAS was crude, but my point was that there is a fair amount of data overhead required by EAS to maintain a connection with the Exchange server. This may not be an issue in developed countries, but it is a massive problem in developing countries and with international data roaming. I know when I travel from Australia to some countries I can get charged close to $20 per MB so the data overhead of EAS can be massive, I have seen the bills from clients for this it is a big problem that Blackberry didn't have to anywhere near the same levels due to compression. My point was never about EAS Vs Blackberry, it was that BB10 should have supported BOTH.

You will also get no arguments from me about IMAP, its crap, but I just don't understand why Blackberry just threw away their patented email technology instead of maintaining its use along side other protocols in BB10.

[GadgetTravel]

I agree that my description of EAS was crude, but my point was that there is a fair amount of data overhead required by EAS to maintain a connection with the Exchange server. This may not be an issue in developed countries, but it is a massive problem in developing countries and with international data roaming. I know when I travel from Australia to some countries I can get charged close to $20 per MB so the data overhead of EAS can be massive, I have seen the bills from clients for this it is a big problem that Blackberry didn't have to anywhere near the same levels due to compression. My point was never about EAS Vs Blackberry, it was that BB10 should have supported BOTH.

You will also get no arguments from me about IMAP, its crap, but I just don't understand why Blackberry just threw away their patented email technology instead of maintaining its use along side other protocols in BB10.

I largely agree but the advantages of compression are diminishing pretty rapidly in much of the developed world, even for international data roaming. Most US carriers have pretty reasonable plans that are more than domestic roaming but no where near the 20 per MB it used to me. I typically pay about $50 to $100 a month for a lot of roaming data, at least enough even for an iPhone data footprint.

[johnnyuk]

I just don't understand why Blackberry just threw away their patented email technology instead of maintaining its use along side other protocols in BB10.

If you're BB10 phone is on BES10 you still get data compression through the NOC.

It wasn?t the fact with BBOS that BlackBerry were sitting in the middle between your phone and your mailbox pushing your emails to you that made the data usage lower is was that the NOC was compressing everything. For work mailboxes in BB10 on BES10 you get your emails and PIM data through ActiveSync but you still get data compression over the NOC.

Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK

[Infamy79]

And which one would you propose that to be?

iOS? (impossible)
Android? (corporate suicide)
WP8? (more corporate suicide)
Symbian? (laughing here)
Tizen? (don't even go there)
FirefoxOS? (Doesn't even have basic functionality yet)

iOS - How is developing for iOS impossible? Its called the iOS Enterprise Program that allows you to create private apps
Android - I certainly wouldn't recommend it either, I think any company running/allowing Android is crazy
WP8 - How is that corporate suicide when most enterprises already run a Microsoft environment? They can write for Win8 and port most of the code to make a WP8 app. WP8 is taking a lot of the enterprise market away from Blackberry already. I do agree that enterprise has not adopted Win8 yet as many are still completing their Win7 rollouts to replace XP, but WinRT is here to stay while enterprise catches up to build up their LOB apps.
Others - Agree

That still leaves developing internal apps for Windows, which they most likely already run and iOS which still has massive market share and mind share in the developed/enterprise world. Given that the apps rewritten for BB10 are no longer running comms through the BES server, the backend is going to be the same regardless of the platform.

[johnnyuk]

Turkey is a developed country. That's part of the Middle East.

A Greek may debate your statement that Turkey is developed lol

Turkey is the near East anyway not the middle East and it is applying for Europe Union membership:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acces...European_Union

It's always been a gateway country between the West and the East of the continents of Europe and Asia for thousands of years.

Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK

[Omnitech]

You will also get no arguments from me about IMAP, its crap, but I just don't understand why Blackberry just threw away their patented email technology instead of maintaining its use along side other protocols in BB10.

My opinion? Because it is a dated, limited architecture, tied closely to an outdated and limited OS, using highly proprietary connectors and middleware that is either largely unnecessary today, or creates its own labor and maintenance and compatibility and scalability problems.

The company has limited resources, and focusing those limited resources on more widely-used and standardized protocols is really the only reasonable choice, especially when the potential benefits of the legacy platform are so limited outside the myopia of the old-school "True BlackBerry Believers". It was that clinging to the past that was the downfall of the previous management of Lazaridis and Balsillie, they clearly didn't need more of that.

Where the company made mistakes in BB10 development included dropping certain legacy functionality that could have been implemented in BB10 but was let go because of a design philosophy that revolved around trying to ape iOS and "simplify the user experience", which I think they basically failed to achieve.

Not only do I think they failed to simplify it without handicapping it and producing in some cases an ergonomic disaster, they also needlessly left out features in the interest of "simplification" that would have been relatively easy to implement, but got the axe. Some of those features they eventually brought back ("delete on handheld/server" email choice, PIN messaging, ability to compose plaintext emails, etc.), but I take issue over what they brought back and how well the ones they brought back were implemented.

In a nutshell, they appear to have fired most of the legacy engineering staff and tried to re-implement everything from scratch, often using staff that seemingly had no experience with the kind of thing they were designing from the ground up. They bit off more than they could chew, and it might have worked out but the whole thing was not very well managed. I don't know if it was a basic skillset problem, management problem, morale problem or what.

All that said, I really like BB10 in various ways, I just have a fairly long mental shortlist of all the "Doh!" things that really should have been done better.

[BennyX]

Per definition, the Middle-East, Latin America and Africa have not a single country that qualifies for being a "developped" one.
(Of note: this is meant value-neutral)
Posted via CB10

Turkey is a developed country. That's part of the Middle East.
South Africa is also a developed country. That's part of Africa of course.
in Southeast Asia there's Singapore as well as Hong Kong. Both developed countries.
In Latin America there's Chile. Another developed country.

In terms of population and potential sales for Blackberry, it's nothing to sneeze at.

[Infamy79]

I largely agree but the advantages of compression are diminishing pretty rapidly in much of the developed world, even for international data roaming. Most US carriers have pretty reasonable plans that are more than domestic roaming but no where near the 20 per MB it used to me. I typically pay about $50 to $100 a month for a lot of roaming data, at least enough even for an iPhone data footprint.

It may be getting there, but it isn't there yet. Plus paying $50-100 per month for roaming data is a lot more than what the BES subscription cost. Maybe not when you compare someone who only travels occasionally yet pays the BES cost every month, but for someone who travels regularly then its a factor.

Regardless, I was never arguing of EAS vs BES, just saying they should never have just abandoned BES when it was already embedded in enterprises. Let them use and pay for it if they want and support other protocols if they are required.

[Omnitech]

iOS - How is developing for iOS impossible? Its called the iOS Enterprise Program that allows you to create private apps
Android - I certainly wouldn't recommend it either, I think any company running/allowing Android is crazy
WP8 - How is that corporate suicide when most enterprises already run a Microsoft environment? They can write for Win8 and port most of the code to make a WP8 app. WP8 is taking a lot of the enterprise market away from Blackberry already. I do agree that enterprise has not adopted Win8 yet as many are still completing their Win7 rollouts to replace XP, but WinRT is here to stay while enterprise catches up to build up their LOB apps.
Others - Agree

That still leaves developing internal apps for Windows, which they most likely already run and iOS which still has massive market share and mind share in the developed/enterprise world. Given that the apps rewritten for BB10 are no longer running comms through the BES server, the backend is going to be the same regardless of the platform.

The response I made was about your comment about the dual OS on the device, that instead of the "primary" OS being BB10/QNX, it should have been some other "existing platform".

That suggests that you think the devices should have simply licensed some other OS to run rather than develop BB10 from scratch, and Apple does not license iOS, needless to say.

[MarsupilamiX]

Turkey is a developed country. That's part of the Middle East.
South Africa is also a developed country. That's part of Africa of course.
in Southeast Asia there's Singapore as well as Hong Kong. Both developed countries.
In Latin America there's Chile. Another developed country.

In terms of population and potential sales for Blackberry, it's nothing to sneeze at.

You may want to learn something about the definition of a developing country/economy then.
For example, here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developing_country

I'll give you Hong Kong and Singapur though, these are correct, but in terms of overall market size rather negligible.

Posted via CB10

[Infamy79]

My opinion? Because it is a dated, limited architecture, tied closely to an outdated and limited OS, using highly proprietary connectors and middleware that is either largely unnecessary today, or creates its own labor and maintenance and compatibility and scalability problems.

The company has limited resources, and focusing those limited resources on more widely-used and standardized protocols is really the only reasonable choice, especially when the potential benefits of the legacy platform are so limited outside the myopia of the old-school "True BlackBerry Believers". It was that clinging to the past that was the downfall of the previous management of Lazaridis and Balsillie, they clearly didn't need more of that.

Where the company made mistakes in BB10 development included dropping certain legacy functionality that could have been implemented in BB10 but was let go because of a design philosophy that revolved around trying to ape iOS and "simplify the user experience", which I think they basically failed to achieve.

Not only do I think they failed to simplify it without handicapping it and producing in some cases an ergonomic disaster, they also needlessly left out features in the interest of "simplification" that would have been relatively easy to implement, but got the axe. Some of those features they eventually brought back ("delete on handheld/server" email choice, PIN messaging, ability to compose plaintext emails, etc.), but I take issue over what they brought back and how well the ones they brought back were implemented.

In a nutshell, they appear to have fired most of the legacy engineering staff and tried to re-implement everything from scratch, often using staff that seemingly had no experience with the kind of thing they were designing from the ground up. They bit off more than they could chew, and it might have worked out but the whole thing was not very well managed. I don't know if it was a basic skillset problem, management problem, morale problem or what.

All that said, I really like BB10 in various ways, I just have a fairly long mental shortlist of all the "Doh!" things that really should have been done better.

Can't argue with any of that, you are probably spot on with the why they chose to do it, my argument was simply in the context of this thread of why so many more BB7 devices are being sold than BB10 I think them dropping legacy support goes a long way to explaining this, if not most of it. The figures of where the BB7 devices are being sold would shine some more light on this.

You only need to look at how many businesses still run XP to see how slow the enterprise moves when the current system works. Hopefully most of which are moving to Win7 in the next 12 months, but I'm sure there are some that won't. As such, for a company that was so embedded in the enterprise, dropping legacy support was a colossal misstep for a company that was already trying to play catch up. However dated and limited the architecture was, they should have at least supported it for BB10 and then tried to phase it out with the next revision of the OS. For all Microsoft's mistakes in the consumer space, their support of legacy systems is why they are used so much in the Enterprise. Its only now with Win8 that they try to make drastic change and they are getting such blow back, (albeit with legacy support still in x86 devices).

[Infamy79]

The response I made was about your comment about the dual OS on the device, that instead of the "primary" OS being BB10/QNX, it should have been some other "existing platform".

That suggests that you think the devices should have simply licensed some other OS to run rather than develop BB10 from scratch, and Apple does not license iOS, needless to say.

Then we are making completely different points. I was not talking about the wrapper within BB10, but internal apps themselves.
My argument was that if a company has a BB7 based app that they cannot run on BB10 then they need to rewrite the app from scratch.
If they need to rewrite the app from scratch for QNX/BB10, why would they bother when they can simply write an app for a more widely used platform instead?
That was why I suggested having a Java wrapped on BB10 to allow legacy apps to run. Surely if they can get an Android wrapper to run then they could get a Java one to work too to allow legacy BB7 apps.

[johnnyuk]

That was why I suggested having a Java wrapped on BB10 to allow legacy apps to run. Surely if they can get an Android wrapper to run then they could get a Java one to work too to allow legacy BB7 apps.

I've read that a BBOS app Java VM was intended for BB10, and possibly PlayBook too, but it performed so poorly and would have been such a drain on development resources to get it to a releasable standard and maintain it that it was dropped.

It would have helped a little with the initial BB10 app gap, but not enough to justify the work in my opinion. There now isn't much you can get on BBOS but but not BB10 (Viber springs to mind, although the Android app works on 10.2.1.x) but there are more apps for BB10 that just wouldn't be possible to implement on BBOS.


Posted via CB10 on Z10 STL100-2 on EE, UK

[Paisley Pirate]

I still don't get BBRY not rolling EOL on OS7... it's old, it's dated, and it's not where they want to go.

Look at iOS (as an example) How many iPhone 3's are still out there? 10? 20? a million? Point it, they no longer support it, and are slowly choking it dead. BBRY should do the same thing.. wind it down and spin everyone into BB10.

I am sure most of the sales are due to pushback or inventory requirements by various Enterprise customers. I know that at my previous company, we had a deal for a certain WM phone... that was a total turd.. want to talk about battery life issues... 4500mAh battery, burn out in 3 hours. Tops. Seriously. I had a fellow rep buy and carry around a portable jump starter to run his phone on when he was in certain customers that took more than half a day. But I digress...

They need to roll EOL to the customers, give them generous discounted BB10 product, and let those OS7 (and 6, and 5) phones go away gently into the night.

This was something I never understood about BBRY since coming back to the BB10... why is 7 still around, let alone why is it still selling in large numbers?