[xanadome]

From the data we have since the introduction of iOS and Android, my interpretation is that most people don't care about BlackBerry's USPs with BBOS.
BIS certainly is somewhere close to completely irrelevant today.

I absolutely agree with this, although I am not quite sure about the BIS question.

Trackpads? Yeah....
Keyboards (even though I'd buy a good slider or Bold with a big enough screen instantly) have completely lost their appeal for most smartphone owners.

I'll get to this question later in association with with your next point below.

It may be an incomplete list of features, but the general tendency from the average consumer, is that he doesn't care one bit about the USPs a legacy BlackBerry has.

There is one big context missing in our discussion, which is "consumer vs enterprise", I think.
While I started writing this post, I just happened to encounter someone’s post, which tells it all.

Most people overlook the fact that with BES customers, they need replacement phones frequently, but have not upgraded to BES10. They still use BBOS devices and when they die, they are replaced by BBOS devices until they upgrade to BES10.

When BBRY was working hard on BB10, they were probably focusing (and too much) on the consumers market, which was certainly big, and BBRY had this obsessive idea that they lost this important market to Apple/Android, and tried to capture it with vengeance. But while they are doing this, they left out the roots and their most important market, which was the enterprise market.
You said in your previous post, 99% of people did not care about the BBOS, and this is true if you were only talking about the consumers market.
As of today, BBRY lost the consumers market, and that’s why they are now talking about going back to the roots etc. I only hope it’s not too late for them

From the consumers' viewpoint, the BB, be it the BBOS or BB10, it's totally irrelevant. They wrote the BB off a long time ago. To them, and for a long time, it's been seen as a totally obsolete device. The very existence of the physical keyboard alone must have given them an impression that it was a grandpa/grandma's device, although there are a huge number of people in the world who still use the BB as a texting device, i.e., young people or in emerging markets.

Now, looking at the enterprise market, where RIM/BBRY has been traditionally very strong. It was not too long ago when every business people (company executives/employees etc.), lawyer, accountant, consultant and store owner appeared to have a BB .
Reasons are;

1. RIM offered most efficient push email system that businesses embraced.They needed efficient communication device.
2. Business people tend to use keyboard more than consumers, and care less about the entertainment/contents aspect of the phone, hence content with sacrificed screen real estate.
3. Those “little moments of delight” , although subtle, were important to business people, who are always busy and on the go.
4. Of course the BES aspect was critical (to lesser extent the BIS too).
5. Priorities of business are very different from the consumers'.

So, the candy bar style QWERTY phone became the de facto standard for the enterprise market.

Re trackpad and keyboard, they are important in typing away many emails/texts. I personally do not need a keyboard if only for a typing purpose, but it gives an important function of shortcuts (almost macro functions), particularly with the ability to manipulate the device in one hand, which is a huge advantage for people on the go.

I do not have to describe all these to you as obviously an experienced person (you rooted your Android :-).

So, the question is how large the enterprise market is. I would think it is very large for BBRY. When the enterprise market found that BB10 was no BB, and particularly when BYOD was becoming popular, they were either holding out with legacy devices that still largely satisfy their purposes, or migrate in droves to other platforms, most notably, the iPhone, as Apple is making it more useful for the enterprise use.

Oh, shoot, I again created a spaghetti long post!

[redlightblinking]

I was forced to make the switch from my Bold 9900 to a Q10. I would have bought another 9900 if they still made them.
I've gotten used to the gesturing on my Q10 and it's much better than when the Z10 first came out.
And there are a lot of nice features and fixes in 10.2, which convinced me to keep the phone.
But I was on my Bold the other day (after using my Q10 for two months) looking for something and OS 7 is such a breeze to use.. much faster and way more efficient than 10. PERIOD!
In one or two clicks in OS 7, you can accomplish the same tasks in less than 1/2 the time, of what it takes in OS10.
Try just hanging up the phone on 10 when your in another app and you can't. You have to gesture out of 10 and back to the phone page to do so.
OS 7, press the hang up button.
Try highlighting text to copy in OS10 and see how long that takes compared to using a track pad in OS7. Esp. getting the bubbles to work.
Sometimes it takes 3 or 4 times as long to edit a page than it does with a track pad.
Have a lot of contacts (I have over 600), good luck trying to find one (in OS10) for a specific job, esp. if you can't remember their name.

In OS 7, I had categories (essentially folders) for my contacts. Contractors that don't have a business name were categorized by trade and could easily be found. Same with suppliers with addresses readily seen for specific geographic locations.
Now OS10, unless I know their name or where the company is located, I can't find them in the phone.... Unless I want to scroll for an hour looking at each contact's details until I find the right one.
There are very good apps available to the business user in OS 7 that aren't available in 10.. Like Call Blocking.
I get hammered everyday by telemarketers... it's extremely annoying.... And in OS7 I had a couple of great apps that filtered those calls out.
In OS 7, you have selective sync; choosing specific files and photos that you want on your phone.
OS 10, it's syncing all or nothing.
OS 10 abandoned the business user and went for the iToy users.

Well said.

They basically built a new, shiny car to replace the old car, but failed to include the basic features like power windows and locks that people assume will come with all cars forever. No one wants to give up power windows so they can get a touch screen defroster.

[xanadome]

Reasons are;

And of course data compression for travelling, as well the security features, which may not be too critical for average consumers.

[Oofa]

Like the title asks, why is OS7 still outselling BB10 by a significant margin?

Is that true or just your opinion? Where did you get that OS7 is outselling BB10 by a significant margin?

[belfastdispatcher]

Is that true or just your opinion? Where did you get that OS7 is outselling BB10 by a significant margin?

Lol, from the earning report, os7 is outselling bb10 3 to 1

[lnichols]

10.2.1 fixes that problem. It's bound to be released in January. With the exception of the US of course. Cause you know those amazing carriers.

Z10STL100-3/10.2.0.1803

Only if packaged with Google Play, because installing shady Chinese app stores is a kludge.

Posted via CB10

[TgeekB]

Is that true or just your opinion? Where did you get that OS7 is outselling BB10 by a significant margin?

The CEO of BlackBerry said it yesterday.

[Speedygi]

1. The 9720 is much cheaper than pretty much any phone on the market except for the Lumia 525 and 520, so if people are looking for a qwerty king at that price it's a no brainer.

2. But flagships from other companies outshadow the Z10 and Q10 and Z30, plus Q5 is pretty expensive in countries like Indonesia or the Philippines.

3. Other legacy OS7 phones are much cheaper and BIS makes the bargain even sweeter...

It's no wonder BB10 is not selling as much.

[darkehawke]

1. The 9720 is much cheaper than pretty much any phone on the market except for the Lumia 525 and 520, so if people are looking for a qwerty king at that price it's a no brainer.

2. But flagships from other companies outshadow the Z10 and Q10 and Z30, plus Q5 is pretty expensive in countries like Indonesia or the Philippines.

3. Other legacy OS7 phones are much cheaper and BIS makes the bargain even sweeter...

It's no wonder BB10 is not selling as much.

The 9720 is poor standard compared to previous curves but that is another matter.
The real question is why didn't BlackBerry take steps to try and push BlackBerry 10 more

Posted via CB10

[Speedygi]

The 9720 is poor standard compared to previous curves but that is another matter.
The real question is why didn't BlackBerry take steps to try and push BlackBerry 10 more

Posted via CB10

Because it has far greater competitors to deal with than in the low end burner/feature/cheap qwerty market which BlackBerry is probably king still.

Posted via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

Because it has far greater competitors to deal with than in the low end burner/feature/cheap qwerty market which BlackBerry is probably king still.

Posted via CB10

It's not hard being successful in the low-end qwerty market, if BlackBerry is the only contender in that segment.

A Q5 with a price around the 200$ mark is badly needed, if BlackBerry wants to grow the userbase.
For me, the price of the BB10 devices is one of the biggest marketing fails I have ever seen, from a company with an incredibly tarnished image, trying to make a comeback.

Posted via CB10

[C_McD]

Personally, I delayed because Link is not as mature as DM still.

The failing to educate and support the end sellers so they could better educate the newbies - the Costco stand here flat said people couldn't grasp the gestures and I know that's because they take zero time to help the buyers.


And VZW's sales people never keep up with what they market/push

I also need an app from Supra for business and I think they just assume BB is going the way of Palm.

That said, my Z30 is a better mousetrap!

[TgeekB]

It's not hard being successful in the low-end qwerty market, if BlackBerry is the only contender in that segment.

A Q5 with a price around the 200$ mark is badly needed, if BlackBerry wants to grow the userbase.
For me, the price of the BB10 devices is one of the biggest marketing fails I have ever seen, from a company with an incredibly tarnished image, trying to make a comeback.

Posted via CB10

I think it started with the Playbook. They priced that thing like it could drive your car. Thus no one learned about the new OS. Then the Z10.... Maybe they have learned now.

[MarsupilamiX]

They are both BB phones. They aren't comparable? One is still outselling the other. And it's.....according to you.....failed miserably. So, by that logic, BB10 had failed even more miserably.

BBOS' and BB10's situation in the marketplace aren't comparable.
When BBOS was still something worth getting, the whole market paradigm was totally different.

BB10 launched in a matured market, that is close to being saturated, with a paradigm dictated by iOS and Android, whereas BBOS created a new paradigm.
When iOS and Android began to mature, they made BBOS obsolete in absolutely every segment, except the enterprise.
And even there, the BYOD movement pretty much destroyed BlackBerry's stranglehold in the enterprise sector.
Therefore the operating systems aren't comparable, in terms of the market reality.

Which are the reasons, why to say that BB10 failed even more, is wrong.
BBOS once was the market leading OS, that failed miserably when other companies took smartphones seriously.
BB10 never was in that situation.

They don't need to "go back to BBOS" just bring back it's features.

This statement is kind of nonsensical, because the market as a whole (99%) obviously doesn't care about these features.
If consumers would care so much for them, than the shift to iOS and Android would never have happened.

[QUOTE=redlightblinking;9740540
The most creative solution would be to go with Android......for whom? How is that creative?[/QUOTE]

You asked, how long "we" will continue to look at the sinking ship.
So the answer to that is, if BB10 doesn't take off soon, then the last resort (what I called creative, in a rather euphemistic way) if BlackBerry wants to continue to sell BlackBerry branded devices, is to go with Android.

Posted via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

I think it started with the Playbook. They priced that thing like it could drive your car. Thus no one learned about the new OS. Then the Z10.... Maybe they have learned now.

The pricing of the PlayBook was obscene...
Borderline insulting...
I bought a 64GB for 200$ when the OS with an Email Client landed.
For that price, I was pretty happy with the device.

I really hope that BlackBerry learned their lesson considering pricing, but the Z30 seems to indicate otherwise.

Posted via CB10

[bobauckland]

BBOS' and BB10's situation in the marketplace aren't comparable.
When BBOS was still something worth getting, the whole market paradigm was totally different.

BB10 launched in a matured market, that is close to being saturated, with a paradigm dictated by iOS and Android, whereas BBOS created a new paradigm.
When iOS and Android began to mature, they made BBOS obsolete in absolutely every segment, except the enterprise.
And even there, the BYOD movement pretty much destroyed BlackBerry's stranglehold in the enterprise sector.
Therefore the operating systems aren't comparable, in terms of the market reality.

Which are the reasons, why to say that BB10 failed even more, is wrong.
BBOS once was the market leading OS, that failed miserably when other companies took smartphones seriously.
BB10 never was in that situation.



This statement is kind of nonsensical, because the market as a whole (99%) obviously doesn't care about these features.
If consumers would care so much for them, than the shift to iOS and Android would never have happened.



You asked, how long "we" will continue to look at the sinking ship.
So the answer to that is, if BB10 doesn't take off soon, then the last resort (what I called creative, in a rather euphemistic way) if BlackBerry wants to continue to sell BlackBerry branded devices, is to go with Android.

Posted via CB10

I don't disagree with your statements on bbos, clearly very few people felt the urge to choose it over the competition. But there was still a niche.

I think you understate the problems with bb10. From the investment in QNX, the time spent, the hype, then the awful execution, coupled with the fact that it doesn't really come up to the standards of ios and android that it's clearly trying to emulate, while retaining virtually nothing that kept the few niche bbos customers.

Bbos may have been suffering with a small dwindling marketshare. But bb10 is nothing but a cheap knock off masquerading as premium devices. It can't even keep a niche as big as bbos. Not even with the 2 year newer hardware being priced lower than the 2 year older hardware now.

Posted via CB10

[nabil114]

Because the os7 phones are a lot cheaper to buy

Swordsmanship Channel C000C9AF6

I agree.

[superflux]

Familiarity is the reason, or one reason, why OS7 is outselling the BB10. People are afraid or hesitant to make the jump when they've got a good thing going. Granted, I thought BB10 would outsell it's predecessors, but that's not always the case. A good portion of people use BlackBerry for business and travel and aren't looking for a q10 or z10 which was designed to compete with androids and iphones.

Posted via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

They don't actively market this BBOS, and have nearly left it behind. Their marketing (what little there is) is all BB10....so how is BBOS the "main reason" for BB's current situation? BBOS seems....according to the title of this thread.....is still their most popular phone!

BB10 was late to market. BB is slower than a turtle when it comes to putting out a product. BB has no idea how to differentiate itself, let alone communicate that difference. Not yet, at least.

BBOS is the culprit for BlackBerry's current problem, because they tried to push that OS for far too long.
After the Storm, it was totally clear that the platform has no future in a market, in which the consumer preferences have changed so dramatically.
BBOS inability to compete with iOS and Android, was the reason for BlackBerry needing a new OS.

That BBOS outsells BB10, is completely irrelevant for that analysis, because we are talking about 1.5% of devices sold this year. That 1% of that comes from BBOS, is solely due to a better pricing of these devices and the enterprise sector.
BlackBerry already made losses when they didn't even have a BB10 phone in their product portfolio...

I agree with your second paragraph though.

Posted via CB10

[redlightblinking]

BBOS is the culprit for BlackBerry's current problem, because they tried to push that OS for far too long.
After the Storm, it was totally clear that the platform has no future in a market, in which the consumer preferences have changed so dramatically.
BBOS inability to compete with iOS and Android, was the reason for BlackBerry needing a new OS.

That BBOS outsells BB10, is completely irrelevant for that analysis, because we are talking about 1.5% of devices sold this year. That 1% of that comes from BBOS, is solely due to a better pricing of these devices and the enterprise sector.
BlackBerry already made losses when they didn't even have a BB10 phone in their product portfolio...

I agree with your second paragraph though.

Posted via CB10

BBOS itself wasn't really the problem. If you look at it, it's actually more flexiable than iOS in that, while a system with icons that load apps...you can move them around, hide them, have desktop features, multiple icons and notices....just like Android does now. The problem was small phones, with keyboards instead of full touchscreens and no cool apps. They've since fixed those two issues, but introduced a new OS along with it that is less functional than the OS that came before in terms of core efficient features.

[xanadome]

BBOS is the culprit for BlackBerry's current problem, because they tried to push that OS for far too long.
After the Storm, it was totally clear that the platform has no future in a market, in which the consumer preferences have changed so dramatically.
BBOS inability to compete with iOS and Android, was the reason for BlackBerry needing a new OS.

I think we should clearly separate the platform (BBOS or BB10) from the programming (core functionality and UI etc).
BBOS was old (at the time BBRY was changing over to BB10 platform), and BBRY at least had to upgrade the hardware in order to survive, which they did not. BTW, if they at least upgraded the 9900 with a hardware acceleration alone, it would have brought the browser to a usable level (I believe). RIM's hardware was always 2 generations behind the competition, and they used to get away with it, and dwelled on it.
If BBRY built the BBOS functionalities and UI (and some) on the BB10 platform, that alone should have been a big saviour for BBRY, I would think.
As I always said, I need a Super Bold (on the BB10 platform would be good), or a hybrid BBOS/BB10 (in terms of programming).

I think what's happening under Chen is rapidly produce "Jakarta"with Foxconn (supposedly a very competitive product) in order to sustain the emerging market (it's a consumers market but big, and BBRY cannot afford to lose it), and return to the enterprise market to take care of their needs with a high end (and probably new) enterprise device. I am sure John Chen is totally aware of all these things we have been discussing here, and will (try to) do the right thing. I heard him saying in one of his interviews that he would address the enterprise market, which has been requesting at least the direction the BBRY was going to. I totally agree with this. We need to know which way BBRY is going, what sort of device they are considering, what their present understanding of the market need is etc. if they gave a reasonable roadmap, I would believe the chunk of enterprise market would sit tight, wait and see (albeit reluctantly).

[MarsupilamiX]

I don't disagree with your statements on bbos, clearly very few people felt the urge to choose it over the competition. But there was still a niche.

I think you understate the problems with bb10. From the investment in QNX, the time spent, the hype, then the awful execution, coupled with the fact that it doesn't really come up to the standards of ios and android that it's clearly trying to emulate, while retaining virtually nothing that kept the few niche bbos customers.

Bbos may have been suffering with a small dwindling marketshare. But bb10 is nothing but a cheap knock off masquerading as premium devices. It can't even keep a niche as big as bbos. Not even with the 2 year newer hardware being priced lower than the 2 year older hardware now.

Posted via CB10

It's scary when you (at least partially) agree with me.
Something is wrong!

I do not disagree with the general content of your post.
Where I disagree is the when you say that I *may* understate the problems BlackBerry is facing with the current platform.
I'd say that I understand and see them, and that I am normally pretty harsh, when it comes down to some obvious missteps and faults.
Apparently some people even see me as a negative troll, in some threads about BB10, but that's another theme.

It's just that in this thread, the general tone of, we should have more BBOS in BB10, is something that I can't agree on.
BBOS has failed in pretty much every segment, except for enterprise customers and cheap Qwerty devices.
Which is also the second thing where I disagree with you:
BBOS devices that sell, are mostly cheap Curves.
So your statement about the price of the 2 year old hardware, is not that correct.

I do think that BlackBerry grossly overpriced their BB10 offerings though.
The Z10, in essence, made the same mistake as the PlayBook:
Pay more, to get less.
The Z30 repeats the fault of the Z10.
It's "just" a midrange device, but priced like a Note 3.
The Q5 is an insult pricing wise, for everyone who isn't totally in love with BB10.
For me, and that is based on so called "price elasticities and cross-price elasticities", the biggest mistake BlackBerry made was the pricing of their devices.

You saw it with the HP Touchpad for example:
When it is cheap enough, people will buy it.
The HP was as close to DOA as a device can be, but for 99$, they sold all of their stock.
And this is why I don't get their pricing strategy at all, because BB10 obviously (sale numbers prove it) doesn't offer enough for most consumers to consider it.

Now, apart from their abysmal marketing considering ads, promotions and such things, price is also a tool of marketing.
When your device obviously os inferior to the competition, the only thing you can do, is too undercut the price of your competition.
And that in a very significant form.
BlackBerry learned nothing from the PlayBook though, and apparently nothing from the 1 billion write-down on the Z10, looking at the Z30 and how they priced it.

Posted via CB10

[redlightblinking]

BB10 launched in a matured market, that is close to being saturated, with a paradigm dictated by iOS and Android, whereas BBOS created a new paradigm.
When iOS and Android began to mature, they made BBOS obsolete in absolutely every segment, except the enterprise.
And even there, the BYOD movement pretty much destroyed BlackBerry's stranglehold in the enterprise sector.
Therefore the operating systems aren't comparable, in terms of the market reality.

Your first three sentences have no connection to your fourth sentence.

Which are the reasons, why to say that BB10 failed even more, is wrong.

But it DID. BBOS is holding up BETTER against the other phones than BB10. So, if it is surviving more....it is failing less. Basic logic.

This statement is kind of nonsensical, because the market as a whole (99%) obviously doesn't care about these features.

Which features? Icons for mail like on Android? CHECK
Desktops with weather and calendar like on Android? CHECK
Buttons? Like on Both Ios and Android? CHECK
Notification profiles like IOS now has? CHECK.
Run more than 8 things at once? CHECK!

It seems people haven't rejected these features....they are buying them.

If consumers would care so much for them, than the shift to iOS and Android would never have happened.

Complete conflation of two different reasons. The shift to iOS and Android had little to do with a rejection of BBOS features, so much as it had to do with APPS and touch screens. That's it.

The only people still embracing BB are the ones that were already there and want to keep basic features that make BB powerful and efficient, worth keeping while loosing the advantages of the iOS or Andriod. And these include some features now found on iOS and Android. If those are not on BB10....WHY BUY IT? Want to sell more BB10 phones? Bring them up to the minimum feature standards that your core user base already had.

then the last resort (what I called creative, in a rather euphemistic way) if BlackBerry wants to continue to sell BlackBerry branded devices, is to go with Android.

Posted via CB10

Not really that creative. That's kind of like saying the creative way the French could beat the Germans is to give up and speak German. But they could still keep the sign on the border that says "France".

[VR6]

that's the billion dollar question Chen wishes he had the answer to

[Omnitech]

You are free to not watch.

Not only is that very true, it put a big grin on my face because of just how true it is and how salient it is here.

What we have here on CB day-in/day-out is a big crowd of people that not only seem to love watching trainwrecks, they appear to relish throwing gasoline on the fire, too.