1. doubledown00's Avatar
    As I sit here cursing my KeyOne on a network I absolutely loathe (Sprint), I keep wondering to myself:
    1) Why does Blackberry hate its users so much? and;
    2) Why the hell do I keep going back to their devices thinking "this time it will be different?"

    For me the reality of just how user unfriendly Blackberry really is was made clear when dealing with my wife's Google Pixel 2. I bought it for her directly from Google. The thing about it was that this thing came with both CDMA and GSM radios built-in. It can use pretty much any frequency of any carrier worldwide, as long as you have a Sim card.

    Ditto the Galaxy S8.

    Blackberry claims to be the friend of business and world travelers......so WHY THE HELL COULDN'T THEY DO THIS WITH THEIR PHONE?? It's such an easy elegant solution that helps their users.

    (Yes, yes, I realize they outsourced their hardware etc. Regardless, they still had a say in the features and specs the new hardware would have).

    The only thing keeping here at this point is the physical keyboard. But with the issues I'm having now with carrier app bloat (the most recent mandatory Sprint apps are killing my battery), the idea of cutting my losses and laying down $$$ for a different network is looking better and better.

    Tell me I'm not the only one!

    Ugh. I need a cigar and some scotch.
    anon(8679041) likes this.
    01-07-18 05:18 PM
  2. thurask's Avatar
    Yeah, the KEYone model situation could have and should have been simplified, but it's too late for that. The Motion isn't much better, and I really doubt TCL will smarten up by the time they release their next phone.
    anon(8679041) likes this.
    01-07-18 06:03 PM
  3. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    BlackBerry Mobile did not force you to buy a phone from Sprint, correct? If you hate their network, isn't it YOUR responsibility to do research upfront before getting a phone that is only compatible with Sprint?
    01-07-18 06:34 PM
  4. John Vieira's Avatar
    BlackBerry Mobile did not force you to buy a phone from Sprint, correct? If you hate their network, isn't it YOUR responsibility to do research upfront before getting a phone that is only compatible with Sprint?
    He doesn't have a choice. Only phones bought from Sprint will work on Sprint, and for some people, changing carriers is not an option.

    Furthermore, it's not that Blackberry hates its customers. It's that it doesn't care. You are no longer its customer.

    BBMobile is used to making low end phones under the Alcatel name, why would you expect better from them with a simple rebadge?

    And finally, there is some hope. You can uninstall apps, even the Sprint ones, even from a non-rooted device with 7.0+.

    Search XDA forums on how to do it, it will require you to learn how to use ADB, but it's worth it.
    01-07-18 06:42 PM
  5. doubledown00's Avatar
    BlackBerry Mobile did not force you to buy a phone from Sprint, correct? If you hate their network, isn't it YOUR responsibility to do research upfront before getting a phone that is only compatible with Sprint?
    The point is lost on you: When I purchased the Keyone (back in the summer time) there was no other choice. From a design perspective the precedent was there for a phone to be designed that didn't have a carrier lock in problem. And forward thinking device manufacturers have modified their hardware accordingly.

    If you know of a Blackberry device that can use CDMA and GSM, I'm all ears. Otherwise this is a problem that didn't have to be if the company were more in tune with the markets that it professes to serve.

    But sure, I should have been anticipated that the carrier would push down un-removable crap applications month after month. We'll go with that.

    More to your point if you're saying we're dumbasses for owning Blackberries in 2018, you'll get no argument from me.
    01-07-18 06:54 PM
  6. doubledown00's Avatar
    He doesn't have a choice. Only phones bought from Sprint will work on Sprint, and for some people, changing carriers is not an option.

    Furthermore, it's not that Blackberry hates its customers. It's that it doesn't care. You are no longer its customer.

    BBMobile is used to making low end phones under the Alcatel name, why would you expect better from them with a simple rebadge?

    And finally, there is some hope. You can uninstall apps, even the Sprint ones, even from a non-rooted device with 7.0+.

    Search XDA forums on how to do it, it will require you to learn how to use ADB, but it's worth it.

    Can you elaborate on this? I have been searching high and low on a way to do that.
    I'm no stranger to roms, rooting, using dev tools, etc.......just been running into a bunch of dead ends and "sorry, it's part of the vendor ROM".
    01-07-18 06:56 PM
  7. Ment's Avatar
    you can blame Qualcomm partially for this. Anytime you put a CDMA radio you have to pay patent fees to QC not on a fixed cost but based on cost of manufacture whether or not the phone is actually activated on CDMA networks. Thus phones that aren't for the NA market and phones that aren't flagship will most likely not have both GSM and CDMA . It's the genesis of the QC vs Apple lawsuits. Apple doesn't think it should have to pay large amounts on QC CDMA patents just because Iphones are so expensive.

    Guessing that the cost of manufacture a low volume niche phone like Keyone is pretty high, maybe even close to the cost of an S8. It doesn't make sense for TCL to pay the CDMA tax for all NA phones as only a small number of them will be on Verizon/Sprint networks.
    01-07-18 07:27 PM
  8. Doityourself's Avatar
    I totally agree.

    it is always a big hype so they can make a quick raise and keep afloat from going broke!

    its daylight robbery.

    cant even give us poxy monthly updates!
    01-07-18 07:34 PM
  9. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    The point is lost on you: When I purchased the Keyone (back in the summer time) there was no other choice. From a design perspective the precedent was there for a phone to be designed that didn't have a carrier lock in problem. And forward thinking device manufacturers have modified their hardware accordingly.

    If you know of a Blackberry device that can use CDMA and GSM, I'm all ears. Otherwise this is a problem that didn't have to be if the company were more in tune with the markets that it professes to serve.

    But sure, I should have been anticipated that the carrier would push down un-removable crap applications month after month. We'll go with that.

    More to your point if you're saying we're dumbasses for owning Blackberries in 2018, you'll get no argument from me.
    Sure there was a choice. You have the right to buy anything you want from someone that provides you exactly what you want. If nobody makes you what you want, you compromise. BBMo wants carriers as their customers to move volume and because Sprint took first chance on BBMo in USA,
    Sprint got to call the shots regarding certain things.

    There's no inalienable right to a PKB device on your carrier of choice. BBMo knows you have choices. They make their decisions and expect that you make yours. It's not personal, just business.
    01-07-18 07:37 PM
  10. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    The point is lost on you: When I purchased the Keyone (back in the summer time) there was no other choice. From a design perspective the precedent was there for a phone to be designed that didn't have a carrier lock in problem. And forward thinking device manufacturers have modified their hardware accordingly.

    If you know of a Blackberry device that can use CDMA and GSM, I'm all ears. Otherwise this is a problem that didn't have to be if the company were more in tune with the markets that it professes to serve.

    But sure, I should have been anticipated that the carrier would push down un-removable crap applications month after month. We'll go with that.

    More to your point if you're saying we're dumbasses for owning Blackberries in 2018, you'll get no argument from me.
    The unlocked GSM model of the KEYᴼᴺᴱ was available for ordering in early June, so you did have another choice.

    BlackBerry Mobile is not able to force Sprint or AT&T or any other carriers to sell an unlocked model. BBM needs to produce a model that the carrier will agree to sell, or then it would be like Verizon and T-Mobile not offering any KEYᴼᴺᴱ phones to their customers.

    I have bought unlocked phones since 2012. That way, I do not worry about having locked phones, or any carrier crap on my phone.
    01-07-18 08:12 PM
  11. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Manufacturers would LOVE to simplify their hardware lines, but as Ment explained perfectly, the costs are significant, and if it's not a high-margin phone that will sell more than 10 Million a year, then it wouldn't be profitable.

    I expect total K1 sales globally are under 500K units. It's pretty easy to figure out why the have to cut out every possible extra cost. With sales volumes that far apart, it just isn't realistic to have similar expectations. People are already complaining about the price of BBMo phones...
    01-07-18 10:26 PM
  12. doubledown00's Avatar
    The unlocked GSM model of the KEYᴼᴺᴱ was available for ordering in early June, so you did have another choice.

    BlackBerry Mobile is not able to force Sprint or AT&T or any other carriers to sell an unlocked model. BBM needs to produce a model that the carrier will agree to sell, or then it would be like Verizon and T-Mobile not offering any KEYᴼᴺᴱ phones to their customers.

    I have bought unlocked phones since 2012. That way, I do not worry about having locked phones, or any carrier crap on my phone.
    Samsung and Google have shown it can be done both ways with the same product. The S8 and the Pixel 2 come in two varieties: Locked GSM or CDMA sold through the given carriers, and an unlocked with GSM *and* CDMA that is available from the manufacturer directly.

    People are free to either buy through the carrier and get subsidized hardware, or pay full freight for a truly unlocked quad band multi-network phone. These same options are not available with the Keyone even though it came out after both of those.
    01-07-18 10:55 PM
  13. doubledown00's Avatar
    you can blame Qualcomm partially for this. Anytime you put a CDMA radio you have to pay patent fees to QC not on a fixed cost but based on cost of manufacture whether or not the phone is actually activated on CDMA networks. Thus phones that aren't for the NA market and phones that aren't flagship will most likely not have both GSM and CDMA . It's the genesis of the QC vs Apple lawsuits. Apple doesn't think it should have to pay large amounts on QC CDMA patents just because Iphones are so expensive.

    Guessing that the cost of manufacture a low volume niche phone like Keyone is pretty high, maybe even close to the cost of an S8. It doesn't make sense for TCL to pay the CDMA tax for all NA phones as only a small number of them will be on Verizon/Sprint networks.
    Best I can tell, we're talking an extra $15 a unit on a phone that has a list price of $549.00. Sure if you're on a GSM network and always will be, one might not want to pay it. But if someone is prepared to pay full freight for the phone, I can't see $15 being a deterrent.
    01-07-18 11:02 PM
  14. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    Samsung and Google have shown it can be done both ways with the same product. The S8 and the Pixel 2 come in two varieties: Locked GSM or CDMA sold through the given carriers, and an unlocked with GSM *and* CDMA that is available from the manufacturer directly.

    People are free to either buy through the carrier and get subsidized hardware, or pay full freight for a truly unlocked quad band multi-network phone. These same options are not available with the Keyone even though it came out after both of those.
    The S8 and Pixel 2. Flagship phones. They sell 10 million units. The KEYᴼᴺᴱ. Not a flagship phone. It might sell 500k units, as Troy posted above.

    Because flagship phones are in high demand, they have LEVERAGE over the carriers. The carriers want lots of those 10 million phones on their network, so they will greenlight the devices even though they have the GSM/CDMA dual compatibility option.

    Because TCL is selling a niche product, they do not have any leverage over the carriers. They make 4 separate devices for the US. Ideally, TCL most likely would like to have one model cover all US carriers, but they need to have the carriers sell subsidized models, and locked, if those are the terms that AT&T/Sprint require in their contracts. Even Verizon appears to control the CDMA model sold by Amazon/Best Buy. If it had GSM compatibility, Verizon could refuse to allow it on their network.

    TCL had to make large compromises to get carrier support for the KEYᴼᴺᴱ devices in hopes that they would provide additional sales. It would be simpler for TCL if they could make one phone for all four networks, but they cannot. They are not at all in the same situation as Samsung and Google, so they have to go at things differently. Especially with Sprint. They are notorious for only allowing certain phones on their network.
    01-08-18 10:03 AM
  15. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    In the past, Sprint is the place where phone brands go to die. Just ask Palm.
    01-08-18 10:14 AM
  16. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    The true question should be - Why does Sprint hate their BlackBerry customers?
    01-08-18 03:46 PM
  17. cbvinh's Avatar
    Best I can tell, we're talking an extra $15 a unit on a phone that has a list price of $549.00. Sure if you're on a GSM network and always will be, one might not want to pay it. But if someone is prepared to pay full freight for the phone, I can't see $15 being a deterrent.
    Is that $15/phone to pay the patent license or $15/phone, including all the engineering and support? Either way, people were already complaining about the $549 USD price.
    01-08-18 05:29 PM
  18. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Is that $15/phone to pay the patent license or $15/phone, including all the engineering and support? Either way, people were already complaining about the $549 USD price.
    That's just the licensing cost - it's certainly not the support and engineering costs, which would definitely be added.
    01-09-18 02:43 AM
  19. dirk_ddiggler's Avatar
    The S8 and Pixel 2. Flagship phones. They sell 10 million units. The KEYᴼᴺᴱ. Not a flagship phone. It might sell 500k units, as Troy posted above.
    Hahaha, this made me laugh so hard. The S8 (including S8+) sold in it's first partial quarter at the rate of over 250,000 a *day.* Not a typo - that's every single day. For partial Q2 2017, Samsung sold 20 million S8/S8+. Late Q3 2017 saw the intro of the Note 8 which should have evened out their sales. So, as far as Samsung is concerned, they might be selling 20 million flagships each and every quarter (give or take), out of about 80 million phones shipped total *per quarter.* What's inside that 80 million per quarter is a bunch of mid-range phones, stuff that's more competitive w/ the K1.

    The original Pixel/XL sold for a TOTAL of less than 3 million units for the entire year they were sold. That's it. The Pixel 2/XL won't sell a whole lot more. Apple sells 3 million phones in less than a week.

    If you folks think TCL will sell 500k K1s, that's just not realistic. It took them a whole year to sell 10k DTEK60 (apparently this was the minimum order from TCL), so I struggle to see how they will sell K1 fifty times faster. With the initial sales satisfied, sales should have slowed quite a bit. My bet is somewhere between 50k - 100k for the year. That's nice growth on a chart, and might be good enough to make version 2. For a big player like Samsung, this is just rounding error. Let's not forget that the screens popping out in the initial batch turned a bunch of people off.
    01-09-18 05:32 AM
  20. donnation's Avatar
    I'm sure this has already been covered above, but why are you blaming BlackBerry? Its amazing to me that people still think they are involved in hardware. They are simply providing their version of Android for TCL to make. TCL makes mid range/lower cost phones and that's what you are going to get from them with their BlackBerry devices.
    01-09-18 05:52 AM

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