05-08-16 08:06 PM
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  1. Oshasat's Avatar
    My question also goes to why reviewers hate PKBs so much. In April, Stereophile magazine writer John Atkinson put his frustrations about the Pono media player this way:

    "Mainstream technical writers tend to practice access journalism; in short, they describe what people say or do: Apple releases a new iPhone, Sony releases a 4k TV, Linksys releases a new router. By contrast, in accountability journalism, the writer judges what has been said or done. Magazines practice both kinds of journalism; show reports, for example, are access journalism, while reviews are accountability journalism. The first is straightforward; the second is not. Much of what passes for accountability journalism on the Web is actually access journalism: a product is described and its functionality discussed, but it is neither judged nor put in its market context."

    I think the low-brand of journalism practiced today is also what hurts PKBs and Blackberry.
    madman0141 and DragonMama like this.
    07-12-15 05:06 PM
  2. ZedMacahan's Avatar
    Simply, they just don't get it. A big shiny screen is more important. And they seldom give an 'odd' devices enough time to recognise it's benefits. "Hey my angry fruit app isn't working as good". "Why are those annoying keys at the bottom?". Ok, just speculating

    Posted via CB10
    DragonMama likes this.
    07-12-15 05:42 PM
  3. Bbnivende's Avatar
    You jest, but I'd sooner see 4% market penetration than the 0.05% or so that someone said we currently have.


    Posted via CB10
    No jest. It is like Goldilocks. The Classic only has a 3.5 inch screen and the Passport is too wide.

    A lost opportunity.

    https://n4bb.com/blackberry-drive-re...ical-keyboard/

    Posted via CB10
    Oshasat likes this.
    07-12-15 06:39 PM
  4. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    You don't have to get so defensive. We're talking keyboards here and not politics. And you have no idea if you are faster than me with your pkb, and I highly doubt you are. And you see a lot of mistakes because people typically don't care if they make a small spelling error on a message they are sending. People make just as many mistakes on a pkb and if they didn't there would be no sense in having autocorrect built in to them. BB would have just left it off because people wouldn't need it.
    I don't use autocorrect on my touchscreen phones either, simply because I can't stand it when my phone thinks that it is more intelligent than I am.

    The same applies to all the keyboard phones I ever had and for my tablets/PCs/Notebook.

    I recently saw someone typing on his MacBook, with autocorrect enabled. I was shocked that something like that even exists...
    southlander and DragonMama like this.
    07-12-15 07:40 PM
  5. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    I laugh when people compare the physical keyboard to the VCR and DVDs. The analogy is flawed. VCRs became obsolete because they were replaced by better technology: better retention with time, reliable error correction, better compression, and reliable readout, etc. Similarly, DVDs are becoming obsolete because they are being replaced by better technology.

    Physical keyboards are being replaced by virtual keyboards not because virtual keyboards are better at typing, but because they enable the use of a larger screen. But, of course, you can trust the posters here to regurgitate the tired similes propagated by clueless "tech" journalists.

    Normally, I try not to point out typing or spelling mistakes unless the poster is waxing eloquent about the virtual keyboard, or missing the point and not realizing it. So, could you find out what error you made above? Hint: It is an auto-correct error that your virtual keyboard was not smart enough to figure out ;-).




    Q10/10.3.1.2582
    Profession/Progression.

    And yes, this seems to be an autocorrect issue, which is another reason why I don't use it.

    Anyhow, the virtual keyboard is better under absolutely every meaningful metric in today's world, except for tactile feedback.

    Word per minute world record? Virtual keyboard (obviously the guy had to be accurate).

    Screen real estate? Virtual keyboard.

    Versatility in terms of input language? Virtual keyboard (I have some friends who work as translators. Must be fun to type in Mandarin on a QWERTZ keyboard....)

    Device size? Just look at the Passport; another win for the virtual keyboard.

    Versatility in terms of input method?
    Swiping, tapping, flowing, flicking and whatnot. The virtual keyboard once again wins.

    What about mechanical parts that can break? I'll just say double typing and Q10/Classic/Passport. Thus another win for the virtual keyboard.

    Heck, you even get some of that versatility when you have to type in passwords. Some apps and webpages give you another row on your virtual keyboard, with numbers and common used symbols, when you click on a password text entry field.

    Face it, the virtual keyboard is better technology.
    The touchscreen phone made the keyboard phone obsolete. Just like the modern revolver made muskets obsolete and the car rendered the buggy whip a relic of the past.
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 07-13-15 at 12:15 AM.
    07-12-15 07:53 PM
  6. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Delicious irony: The physical keyboard gets ridiculed and misrepresented by virtual keyboard lovers who cannot even write an error-free post that praises the accuracy of a virtual keyboard.

    The sculpted profile of a physical keyboard provides better distinguishing capabilities than a homogeneous glass slab. Thus, the auto-correct function needs to kick in less often on a physical keyboard. People who don't understand this simple fact do not deserve to be argued with.


    Q10/10.3.1.2582
    It's pretty simple:
    Keyboard marketshare this year, will be in the 0.3% give or take.

    If they would answer a technological need, we would see more of them.
    If there would be an illogical demand for them, something like... A preference for tactile feedback, we would see more manufacturers making more models of smartphones with a physical keyboard.

    As it stands now, the truth is very simple:
    Nobody cares about the physical keyboard anymore, when it comes down to smartphones.
    07-12-15 07:59 PM
  7. Jerry A's Avatar
    Fans of virtual keyboards say they are faster and more accurate. Faster, yes; more accurate - not from what I see online in blogs and news articles. There's been a dramatic increase in typos, word omissions and misuse or substitutions of common words. You can see that a lazy writer just flicked a word into a sentence when the sentence doesn't make any sense or a word is used in the wrong context.
    That's always been the case. I've seen poor grammar, punctuation, editing, and spelling since the days of the typewriter.

    The technology isn't at fault. It's the user. Putting the blame on the technology is just a straw man argument to bolster one's personal feelings about keyboard types.
    07-12-15 08:07 PM
  8. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    I'm not sure why you are responding the way that you are. You made a point that abbreviations came from physical keyboards on phones. I refuted that by saying that abbreviations became common before physical qwerty keyboards on phones were common. My post had nothing to do with users in developing nations.

    To answer your question, do you think that people were cranking out full sentences on numeric-keypad only phones in 2001?

    Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!
    I did in 2001.
    Had a Nokia Communicator already.
    AND I had a dumbphone with a perfectly trained T9 dictionary, for more complicated words.
    I even knew the number of clicks I had to make on the * button, to go from "have" to "gave" (and similar stuff).
    jmr1015 likes this.
    07-12-15 08:07 PM
  9. donnation's Avatar
    Piers Morgan still using BlackBerry cuz of the PKB he said he can never type on a glass.

    Posted via CB10
    Is that supposed to be some type of ringing endorsement of why pkbs are better?
    RH1Pearl likes this.
    07-12-15 08:15 PM
  10. CTU2fan's Avatar
    It's pretty simple:
    Keyboard marketshare this year, will be in the 0.3% give or take.

    If they would answer a technological need, we would see more of them.
    If there would be an illogical demand for them, something like... A preference for tactile feedback, we would see more manufacturers making more models of smartphones with a physical keyboard.

    As it stands now, the truth is very simple:
    Nobody cares about the physical keyboard anymore, when it comes down to smartphones.
    Clearly BlackBerry does. Somebody or some group of somebodies over at BlackBerry did some research and focus grouping and came up with the idea that BlackBerry could exploit an unrepresented group of folks who want it. And they're probably getting paid well for it too.

    For the record, if I was a BlackBerry stockholder I'd want them banging out full touch blandery as fast as the horse can trot, since while I think VKB are crap, they are popular (so are Justin Bieber and the Yankees, so popularity doesn't necessarily mean good). But as a PKB user I hope they keep plugging away questing at producing the perfect PKB device, and to hell with the other 99%, let them buy iPhones or Droids.

    Posted via CB10
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    07-12-15 08:25 PM
  11. SunshineStateFlyer's Avatar
    Most people probably just prefer to trade in their physical keyboards for a larger screen size. Additionally, virtual keyboards have improved a lot recently, so there is no real advantage to a hardware keyboard for most consumers apparently.

    It is not faster to type on a hardware keyboard. Maybe it is more convenient and more precise, but that might also come down to what one is used to.
    However, a hardware keyboard can also have disadvantages, like a language switch to different characters cannot be done so easily.

    What might be added maybe is that the only physical keyboard phone living up to modern smartphone standards is the Passport, which has a very special design and therefore is not for everybody.

    At the end of the day it is probably difficult to identify a main reason for this general perception. Yet, the market clearly shows the direction and we have to accept that there is only a diminishing amount of people explicitly wanting a physical keyboard.


    Posted via CB10
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    07-12-15 08:38 PM
  12. z10Jobe's Avatar
    Great thread.

    I like both. Flicking my z10 / z30 and then alternating by clicking my q5. Both are inexpensive so it is affordable to have the best of both worlds. In a bumpy car, the physical keyboard rules while the reliability, speed, screen real estate and quietness of a virtual keyboard explains their market domination.

    But to be honest, BlackBerry's excellent virtual keyboard is quicker at least 80% of the time with only a small loss in accuracy over the physical keyboard.

    Getting back to the point of the thread, I don't think physical keyboards are more archaic, it is just a personal preference chosen by the minority.

    Posted via CB10
    Oshasat likes this.
    07-12-15 08:42 PM
  13. garnok's Avatar
    i used to think PKB will always be primary phone ( i send tens of email and text everyday) ..
    but i'm wrong

    while VKB is not perfect but it is good enough, with 5 inches screen i still can type quite fast and quite accurate..

    maybe VKB phone not as good as PKB for typing.....but with a better screen space and still maintain their size for a pocket device ,VKB phone is perfect for anything else and it is most people want today...

    besides in the near future voice command will be better and better, PKB phone will continue to losing their tiny market share.....
    07-12-15 08:49 PM
  14. Oshasat's Avatar
    No jest. It is like Goldilocks. The Classic only has a 3.5 inch screen and the Passport is too wide.

    A lost opportunity.

    https://n4bb.com/blackberry-drive-re...ical-keyboard/

    Posted via CB10
    I'd buy one of these. In fact, a taller version of the Q10 with a larger screen and a 4-row keyboard would be a fantastic product. But would it sell enough units? What I need is enough market demand for a PKB like that to guarantee that I can have access to one when the time comes.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    07-12-15 09:11 PM
  15. donnation's Avatar
    Clearly BlackBerry does. Somebody or some group of somebodies over at BlackBerry did some research and focus grouping and came up with the idea that BlackBerry could exploit an unrepresented group of folks who want it. And they're probably getting paid well for it too.

    Posted via CB10
    And these guys have clearly done a bang up job now and since BB10 launched at assessing what the market wants....

    I think it's more of a group of people that refuse to let go of the past and are stuck in a single mindset that people are still clamoring for pkb phones.
    07-12-15 09:20 PM
  16. madman0141's Avatar
    I think they believe it to be old fashioned because some 15-17 year old phone genius told them it was so. Only problem this genius works at Best Buy and they believe everything on Wikipedia is real and what they read on Facebook and Twitter is journalism.
    dbq10 and DragonMama like this.
    07-12-15 09:22 PM
  17. clickitykeys's Avatar
    I will readily say this: I was quite proficient with a physical keyboard, so much so that the thought of not using one gave me jitters. Swipe typing was the only way I was able to give vkbs a try, and I now I wouldn't return to a pkb if I had the choice.

    Anyone who knows me from my early CB days would be surprised LOL.

    In the end, choice rules.
    I have used Swype extensively and think that it is a cool invention and a great illustration of how language models can improve touch typing. The drawback of Swype is that one's finger needs to be touching the slab at all times and that similarly spelled words cannot always be differentiated unless one is extremely careful.

    I think about it this way: All virtual keyboards available today are basically adapting and approximating the physical keyboard to a touch interface. Now, in a hypothetical world, if we were to invent a touchscreen-based text entry device, without knowing anything about physical keyboards, would we have come up with Swype, or Swiftkey, or any of the VKB variants out there? Probably not. We would probably have designed something completely different from the ground up.

    Q10/10.3.2
    Last edited by clickitykeys; 07-12-15 at 10:10 PM.
    07-12-15 09:42 PM
  18. sahilp17's Avatar
    It's pretty simple:
    Keyboard marketshare this year, will be in the 0.3% give or take.

    If they would answer a technological need, we would see more of them.
    If there would be an illogical demand for them, something like... A preference for tactile feedback, we would see more manufacturers making more models of smartphones with a physical keyboard.

    As it stands now, the truth is very simple:
    Nobody cares about the physical keyboard anymore, when it comes down to smartphones.
    0.3% is very generous because that is the current blackberry market share today. OS10, BBOS, BB VKB, BBPKB all combined

    Posted via CB10
    MarsupilamiX and RH1Pearl like this.
    07-12-15 09:49 PM
  19. MontoyaOscar84's Avatar
    Because physical keyboards are old school, like us. Lol.
    07-12-15 10:25 PM
  20. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I'd buy one of these. In fact, a taller version of the Q10 with a larger screen and a 4-row keyboard would be a fantastic product. But would it sell enough units? What I need is enough market demand for a PKB like that to guarantee that I can have access to one when the time comes.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    Would definitely sell better than the Passport and Classic combined. The square screen is just... dumb.

    Posted via CB10
    07-12-15 11:21 PM
  21. OTCHRussell's Avatar
    i used to think PKB will always be primary phone ( i send tens of email and text everyday) ..
    but i'm wrong

    while VKB is not perfect but it is good enough, with 5 inches screen i still can type quite fast and quite accurate..

    maybe VKB phone not as good as PKB for typing.....but with a better screen space and still maintain their size for a pocket device ,VKB phone is perfect for anything else and it is most people want today...

    besides in the near future voice command will be better and better, PKB phone will continue to losing their tiny market share.....
    I'm not so sure voice commands will take over keyboards. Who is going to want to listen to you talking to your phone all day?

    9000 > Q10 > Z10 >Z30>Z30>
    07-12-15 11:28 PM
  22. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    0.3% is very generous because that is the current blackberry market share today. OS10, BBOS, BB VKB, BBPKB all combined

    Posted via CB10
    You are correct. I assume a 4/5 split for BBOS for the PKB and a 2/3 split for BB10.

    But I forgot the market growth. You are correct, we are probably talking about something between 0.2 and 0.1%.
    If BlackBerry sells even less phones in the next quarter, we might really look at 0.05%.

    Thank you for reminding me!

    Well, some reasons.

    1. Apple has a big chunk of the market, and they'll never make a PKB device. If they ever did they'd move that needle up a few ticks I'm sure.

    2. Android manufacturers aren't making PKB devices anymore either. Samsung made some low quality junk sliders en masse that kind of put a bad reputation on that form factor, and the various "candybar style" PKB Androids were also pretty basic.

    3. Like with BlackBerry now, the carriers don't stock them. So if you do like most and walk into your carrier's nearest shop for an upgrade, you'll have your choice of the latest Apple, Samsung, LG, and HTC devices. All identical full touch slabs. Oh and maybe a few 10-key feature phones. PKB won't be an option, and if you were considering one the pushy sales guy would do his best to sell you on something full touch (and more expensive).

    All of those are market driven, but it becomes a chicken-and-egg thing at some point. No chance that PKB devices will ever outsell the slabs, but if Apple and Samsung (or maybe LG) built a flagship PKB device (probably a slider) you'd definitely see that 1% number rise.

    Posted via CB10
    You are confusing the beginning and end of things.
    We'll exclude Apple though, because they revolutionised the whole touchscreen market. Them making a keyboard phone would just be silly.

    The question is why Android manufacturers don't make PKB devices.
    This is the most fundamental question you have to answer (you are saying that Android not having PKB is a reason for the market share. I am saying that the market share is the reason by itself).

    How is it even possible, that no one tries to sell a PKB phone in one of the most competitive markets of our time?
    Why would Sony rather exit the smartphone market, instead of trying to be different and get some market share with a PKB phone? Or what about HTC?

    There is only one answer: there is no business case. The market wouldn't support it.
    Supply doesn't magically create demand, simply because a product appeared.

    The supply has to meet a certain demand, and if you have supply without demand... You basically get BlackBerry's performance. And the answer to the question why nobody makes keyboard phones in the Android world.
    Oshasat likes this.
    07-12-15 11:29 PM
  23. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    I have used Swype extensively and think that it is a cool invention and a great illustration of how language models can improve touch typing. The drawback of Swype is that one's finger needs to be touching the slab at all times and that similarly spelled words cannot always be differentiated unless one is extremely careful.

    I think about it this way: All virtual keyboards available today are basically adapting and approximating the physical keyboard to a touch interface. Now, in a hypothetical world, if we were to invent a touchscreen-based text entry device, without knowing anything about physical keyboards, would we have come up with Swype, or Swiftkey, or any of the VKB variants out there? Probably not. We would probably have designed something completely different from the ground up.

    Q10/10.3.2
    I don't know that I would disagree. Yep, I would agree that current vkbs are a derivative of pkbs.

    I hesitate to describe vkbs as old-school though. It's simply another method of entry that less people use.
    idssteve likes this.
    07-12-15 11:30 PM
  24. pogo007's Avatar
    Most folks live in the iWorld. The only benefit of typing on glass is if you talk multiple languages including Japanese or another language that does not use the alphabet.

    Posted via CB10
    07-12-15 11:42 PM
  25. 21stNow's Avatar
    You are correct. I assume a 4/5 split for BBOS for the PKB and a 2/3 split for BB10.

    But I forgot the market growth. You are correct, we are probably talking about something between 0.2 and 0.1%.
    If BlackBerry sells even less phones in the next quarter, we might really look at 0.05%.

    Thank you for reminding me!



    You are confusing the beginning and end of things.
    We'll exclude Apple though, because they revolutionised the whole touchscreen market. Them making a keyboard phone would just be silly.

    The question is why Android manufacturers don't make PKB devices.
    This is the most fundamental question you have to answer (you are saying that Android not having PKB is a reason for the market share. I am saying that the market share is the reason by itself).

    How is it even possible, that no one tries to sell a PKB phone in one of the most competitive markets of our time?
    Why would Sony rather exit the smartphone market, instead of trying to be different and get some market share with a PKB phone? Or what about HTC?

    There is only one answer: there is no business case. The market wouldn't support it.
    Supply doesn't magically create demand, simply because a product appeared.

    The supply has to meet a certain demand, and if you have supply without demand... You basically get BlackBerry's performance. And the answer to the question why nobody makes keyboard phones in the Android world.
    Not arguing with you here, but HTC and Samsung have both made physical keyboard phones in the past.

    Samsung: Epic 4G, Captivate Glide, Stratosphere and Sidekick 4G and some others that I can't remember
    LG: Optimus Q
    HTC: G1, G2, EVO Shift and My Touch 4G Slide
    Motorola: The DROID series (with only numbers after the name).
    Other smaller OEMs such as NEC (Terrain).

    Most of these are no longer made. When I ran into people that used these phones, most said that they almost never used the physical keyboards on them. The people that I see today that still use the DROID 4 say that they prefer it because of the physical keyboard.

    My guess is that these OEMs don't make more phones with physical keyboards because they didn't sell well when they did make them. This leads to your point about the market not supporting phones with physical keyboards.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    07-13-15 12:05 AM
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