[idssteve]

In 1957, at least a few periodicals proclaimed that any car without tail fins was "old school". Fads come and go. Journalism hasn't improved. It's hard to look at this market and not see that the oversized glass market is approaching saturation. Consumer fatigue might just provide a tiny niche opportunity that blackberry is well positioned to fill. Insignificant to SamApple but maybe just enough to buy BB time.

The BIG market is obviously glass. BB needs to figure out what it takes to impact that market. The Z30 didn't do it. Why is that? That's a serious question... i'd really like to hear some ideas as to why BB's most powerful glass product isn't commanding better glass market share?

ANYway, i've always thought that a Smart Phone Olympics could be fun publicity for BB and CB. It might include competitions like texting while carrying a briefcase, etc... ??? I'll sign up for THAT one... with my PKB BB... lol...

[tkulthenoble]

Yeah of course he is a business man and he writes article for daily mail. Which he can easily do that on his BlackBerry porch/passport not on a brick of glass with crazy typos. See the problems with BlackBerry right now is not PKB is the limited apps.
Ppl follow trends especially the social life of today, if my phone can't do what my 2 or 3 friends phone does I'm gonna be left out e.g instagram, Snapchat. Etc
If I could remember here in Nigeria ppl left Nokia for BlackBerry because of bbm and same as Facebook and Twitter apps. Blackberry is dying because of the apps problem.

Posted via CB10

[jmr1015]

In 1957, at least a few periodicals proclaimed that any car without tail fins was "old school". Fads come and go. Journalism hasn't improved. It's hard to look at this market and not see that the oversized glass market is approaching saturation. Consumer fatigue might just provide a tiny niche opportunity that blackberry is well positioned to fill. Insignificant to SamApple but maybe just enough to buy BB time.

The BIG market is obviously glass. BB needs to figure out what it takes to impact that market. The Z30 didn't do it. Why is that? That's a serious question... i'd really like to hear some ideas as to why BB's most powerful glass product isn't commanding better glass market share?

ANYway, i've always thought that a Smart Phone Olympics could be fun publicity for BB and CB. It might include competitions like texting while carrying a briefcase, etc... ??? I'll sign up for THAT one... with my PKB BB... lol...

Well, tail fins on cars were a styling fad... Not a practical/functional change. A better example would be the change from carbureted to fuel injection... Or switching to overhead cam (which some companies still haven't done)

In my opinion, the Z30 failed for a few reasons. 1.) it had mediocre specs for a flagship price 2.) it was a Verizon exclusive here in the states. 3.) it launched when BlackBerry was going through a rough time, and saw pretty much zero marketing. 4.) BB10 ecosystem and overall awareness/interest in the platform. Despite most of that, I personally was interested in the Z30 when I was shopping for a new phone in late 2013, but I wasn't going to drop my carrier and switch to Verizon for it... Especially considering the last time I did exactly that (switched to Verizon for a BlackBerry... The Storm) I got burned. While that isn't the Z30s fault, it definitely colored my decision making process.

Smartphone Olympics could be interesting. I think a smaller iPhone like the 5/5S/5C with a swipe-enabled keyboard would do very well with one-handed typing performance, such as texting while carrying a brief case. The smaller iPhones were always great with single hand usage. I'd bet a Z10 would be great in that contest as well.

[tkulthenoble]

False! When these companies made physical keyboard phones ,BlackBerry was still on point and still leading in the industry I remember that samsung PKB phones was trash with Java os not android, no Facebook apps no twitter apps like the BlackBerry apps legacy apps. I remember samsung even made double sims PKB phones yet it was trash.
Samsung came in the game with galaxy s4 even s3 didn't make it that big.
S3 sales didn't even near the bold sales but samsung and iphone took advantage of the app situations when Z10 came in. No great apps like instagram, Skype and all that.
As at 2013 the Kardashians family still using BlackBerry phones.

Posted via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

That's always been the case. I've seen poor grammar, punctuation, editing, and spelling since the days of the typewriter.

The technology isn't at fault. It's the user. Putting the blame on the technology is just a straw man argument to bolster one's personal feelings about keyboard types.

I might want to disagree with you, but only a bit.
Since the introduction of spell checking in Word, I am personally of the opinion that people got "dumber", when it came down to correct orthography.

The next step was the SMS and its derivatives (Twitter, FB, BBM). Correct Orthography just got another hit into the guts.

Those are 2 different issues though.
The first one illustrates that people got spoiled.
You have no idea how many are out there, who fail miserably in terms of orthography, if you take away their spell check.

The second one illustrates that people apparently do not really care about orthography.
Which is something you will notice in the blog culture, even though not specifically in terms of correct writings, but in terms of using eloquent wordings.
If you do not look at rather sophisticated Blogs (Arstechnica, anandtech, but even CB isn't half bad), the chances are high that the article you read has been written by an amateur.

This sadly goes even further, when we broaden our view to online media in general.
The online version of the New York Times isn't exactly awe inspiring, and that Forbes writes regularly about a game called " Destiny", makes no sense at all, if we are honest.

Last but not least, I want to talk about click bait.
Social media made click bait what it is today. And it's everywhere. From the NYT, over BGR or the Financial Times (continue endlessly).
Click bait is another phenomenon that lessened the quality of written articles in the Net.

But all of those things apparently don't seem to worry anyone.
The worth of eloquent wording, to have a feeling for a language and tone, is seemingly disappearing into the ether.

When something like 50 Shades of Grey is becoming a bestseller, you know that the world probably doesn't give an eff anymore.
I think that technology is at least partly to blame though.

Not arguing with you here, but HTC and Samsung have both made physical keyboard phones in the past.

Samsung: Epic 4G, Captivate Glide, Stratosphere and Sidekick 4G and some others that I can't remember
LG: Optimus Q
HTC: G1, G2, EVO Shift and My Touch 4G Slide
Motorola: The DROID series (with only numbers after the name).
Other smaller OEMs such as NEC (Terrain).

Most of these are no longer made. When I ran into people that used these phones, most said that they almost never used the physical keyboards on them. The people that I see today that still use the DROID 4 say that they prefer it because of the physical keyboard.

My guess is that these OEMs don't make more phones with physical keyboards because they didn't sell well when they did make them. This leads to your point about the market not supporting phones with physical keyboards.

Not arguing either:

I know! I even had some of those. OG Droid and the HTC Desire Z for example.

But I was only referring to the last few years in my post. The Droid 4 must surely be 3 years old by now.
And that was the last prominent slider phone on the market.

I think that Samsung made some very cheap sliders until even 2 years ago. They might still sell them in emerging markets currently tbh.

[OTCHRussell]

[QUOTE=idssteve;11785950]

The BIG market is obviously glass. BB needs to figure out what it takes to impact that market. The Z30 didn't do it. Why is that? That's a serious question... i'd really like to hear some ideas as to why BB's most powerful glass product isn't commanding better glass market share?
----------------------------------------------------------


As I have mentioned before, the only reason I knew about the Z30 is because I read about it on CB. Nobody I have ever met has ever heard about it. I never saw it in a store. I knew from the day it came out, with no fanfare, that it was doomed!! I'm so glad I now have 2 of them. :-)


9000 > Q10 > Z10 >Z30>Z30>

[MarsupilamiX]

False! When these companies made physical keyboard phones ,BlackBerry was still on point and still leading in the industry I remember that samsung PKB phones was trash with Java os not android, no Facebook apps no twitter apps like the BlackBerry apps legacy apps. I remember samsung even made double sims PKB phones yet it was trash.
Samsung came in the game with galaxy s4 even s3 didn't make it that big.
S3 sales didn't even near the bold sales but samsung and iphone took advantage of the app situations when Z10 came in. No great apps like instagram, Skype and all that.
As at 2013 the Kardashians family still using BlackBerry phones.

Posted via CB10

Huh?
The Galaxy S3 sold some 50 million units in one year of availability (2012-2013).

What Bold model sold as many phones? Huh?

In 2012, BlackBerry was already declining pretty harshly.
BlackBerry had around 6.5% marketshare in 2012 and 3% in 2013.
Samsung had around 30% in both years already.

[jmr1015]

False! When these companies made physical keyboard phones ,BlackBerry was still on point and still leading in the industry I remember that samsung PKB phones was trash with Java os not android, no Facebook apps no twitter apps like the BlackBerry apps legacy apps. I remember samsung even made double sims PKB phones yet it was trash.
Samsung came in the game with galaxy s4 even s3 didn't make it that big.
S3 sales didn't even near the bold sales but samsung and iphone took advantage of the app situations when Z10 came in. No great apps like instagram, Skype and all that.
As at 2013 the Kardashians family still using BlackBerry phones.

Posted via CB10

You're right. Much of that post is pretty "False!"

The Galaxy S3 was, and still is, one of the best selling Android devices of all time. Samsung and Apple didn't need to wait and take advantage of the app gap at the time of the Z10 release. iOS and Android were already well on their way to world domination by late 2012/early 2013, and BlackBerry was already in steep decline well before the launch of BB10. It's mid-2015, and the Kardashian's are still using BlackBerry's. (Kim is, at least) The pre-Android Samsung PKB phones, like the BlackJack and BlackJack 2, were Windows Mobile phones, and for their time, were pretty good and sold well enough from what I remember. I don't remember if old WinMo had apps like Facebook, Twitter, or MySpace...

[Tre Lawrence]

The BIG market is obviously glass. BB needs to figure out what it takes to impact that market. The Z30 didn't do it. Why is that? That's a serious question... i'd really like to hear some ideas as to why BB's most powerful glass product isn't commanding better glass market share?

Answered here IMHO:

See the problems with BlackBerry right now is not PKB is the limited apps.

Blackberry is dying because of the apps problem.

[Raestloz]

I love Z10's virtual keyboard. It's so much nicer compared to BlackBerry Bold 9700's physical keyboard. I can type a lot of text without injuring my fingers, and the autocorrect is something that I actually don't mind correcting me.

That and the extra screen is very nice when watching videos

I personally wouldn't go back to physical keyboard, but I do agree that it should still exist simply because there are people out there that prefers it

Z10 STL100-1/10.3.1.2576

[RH1Pearl]

I don't understand the supreme importance of PKBs on smartphones. I spend 90% of my time reading data and posts on social network sites. The other 10% that I write or post messages, the average text I write is "Honey I'm home". Even then I have a program in my VKB phone that automatically sends that text message to my wife once it detects my WiFi signal in my home or cell tower near my house. Do I miss the "tactile" feedback of sending that automated message? Hell no. Now PKB users will argue what if you had to write a long text. Simple - I call my Wife.

One more thing - OP, if you really want to go old school, I have a Note 4 and I use a stylus to write all my messages. Can't get more traditional than that.

[Bbnivende]

[QUOTE=OTCHRussell;11785993]

The BIG market is obviously glass. BB needs to figure out what it takes to impact that market. The Z30 didn't do it. Why is that? That's a serious question... i'd really like to hear some ideas as to why BB's most powerful glass product isn't commanding better glass market share?
----------------------------------------------------------


As I have mentioned before, the only reason I knew about the Z30 is because I read about it on CB. Nobody I have ever met has ever heard about it. I never saw it in a store. I knew from the day it came out, with no fanfare, that it was doomed!! I'm so glad I now have 2 of them. :-)


9000 > Q10 > Z10 >Z30>Z30>

So many reasons:

1. At the time BlackBerry was up for sale. There did not appear to be any takers.
2. The device was over priced considering the specs and no ecosystem.
3. BB10 was still not a very good OS.
4. Enterprise users were taking a wait and see approach.
5. Z10 prices were tanking.
6. The bottom chin design did not excite.
7. Users could not install their own APK's
8. The screen was not near as good as the competition.
9. You only get one chance to impress.

The Edsel was reputed to be a good car and the Z30 was a good phone. Not the right time or phone.

Posted via CB10

[KingOfQwerty]

I do agree with most of the posters summarizing "technologies can co-exist, but it is the market which make or break a phenomena".

I think BBRY also understands this and aptly named its original PKB carrying device as 'Classic'. Soon to be dispensed with.

It will be interesting to see whether BB will bring flagship pure touch to fight with the biggies or differentiate themselves with hybrids like PP and slider and satisfied with miniscule subscribers.

[Oshasat]

I don't understand the supreme importance of PKBs on smartphones. I spend 90% of my time reading data and posts on social network sites. The other 10% that I write or post messages, the average text I write is "Honey I'm home". Even then I have a program in my VKB phone that automatically sends that text message to my wife once it detects my WiFi signal in my home or cell tower near my house. Do I miss the "tactile" feedback of sending that automated message? Hell no. Now PKB users will argue what if you had to write a long text. Simple - I call my Wife.

One more thing - OP, if you really want to go old school, I have a Note 4 and I use a stylus to write all my messages. Can't get more traditional than that.

Thanks RH1Pearl, but I don't want to write with a feather quill and ink any more than I want to use a stylus -- my choice of keyboarding is a matter of ease, accuracy and speed -- not tradition.

I'm not at all begrudging your right to compose short messages of the 13-letter "Hi honey, I'm home" variety. But I do want to know why the market can't or won't allow a few PKB phones to coexist with your videoplayers -- er, slabphones.

The "supreme importance" of PKBs is a matter of personal need and preference. First, I tend to be a bit verbose in my email/texts/FB posts, and second, during my 'busy season' I receive 70-80 emails or more a day -- many of these require a detailed reply, and even 13 letters cranked out on a 7" glass tablet gives me a headache. I also value accuracy, and do my own spellchecking (although I appreciate and use it all the same).

So many of us live in supposedly free societies that promote freedom of choice. For example, at my local drug store I can choose from a selection of over a hundred shampoos, and my supermarket offers dozens of varieties of cereals. I'm just wondering why the cellphone market can't support a small segment of PKBs. Or are we deluding ourselves when we buy into claims of "freedom" and "market choice"?

I don't intend to rub anyone's nose in it when I say that some of us create content (clarify assignments, send directives to committees, etc.) as well as absorb it. Yes, the bulk of my writing is done on a computer keyboard, but I need a portable option. I'm just surprised that so many are denigrating PKBs as dated, rather than simply regarding it as "another way of being."

Posted via CB10

[idssteve]

I don't understand the supreme importance of PKBs on smartphones. I spend 90% of my time reading data and posts on social network sites. The other 10% that I write or post messages, the average text I write is "Honey I'm home". Even then I have a program in my VKB phone that automatically sends that text message to my wife once it detects my WiFi signal in my home or cell tower near my house. Do I miss the "tactile" feedback of sending that automated message? Hell no. Now PKB users will argue what if you had to write a long text. Simple - I call my Wife.

One more thing - OP, if you really want to go old school, I have a Note 4 and I use a stylus to write all my messages. Can't get more traditional than that.

Vastly different use case. I have NEVER texted "Honey i'm home"... LOL... Calling anyone while working in a noisy industrial environment is pointless, for example. Text, etc... is king of noisy environments. In my company's case, single handed text is invaluable since the other hand is inevitably operating switches or paging through HMI's while the text hand reports. An admittedly tiny niche that i'm sure will be abandoned once BB figures out how to market glass. Pretty essential for some of us, NTL.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

BlackBerry didn't invent they keyboard...
Other manufactures have keyboard patents of their own...

The "market" will decided what it wants, or doesn't want. Is there a "niche" market out there of individuals that prefer a keyboard... of course. But is it a market to base your whole business on? Guess that really depends on how big of a company you are and what kind of sales you need to support your company. TYPO taught it was large enough for them.... but I think they were going to be happy with a few million dollars a year.

Me personally, I much prefer a virtual keyboard with flick to type. 80% of what I do on my Z10 is LOOKING at content - emails, browser, content.

[tkulthenoble]

Bold sold more than S3. If I can remember not the s3 with no camera flash? Please do your research again. Samsung came into the game with galaxy s4 not 3.

Posted via CB10

[tkulthenoble]

My point is that what really killed blackberry is the big apps. Forget about PKB or VKB . I saw the the passport I was wowed and my cousin using cheap android called infinix still craving for my Z30 but can my Z30 Snapchat? No! And all that.

Posted via CB10

[Soulstream]

BlackBerry didn't invent they keyboard...
Other manufactures have keyboard patents of their own...

The "market" will decided what it wants, or doesn't want. Is there a "niche" market out there of individuals that prefer a keyboard... of course. But is it a market to base your whole business on? Guess that really depends on how big of a company you are and what kind of sales you need to support your company. TYPO taught it was large enough for them.... but I think they were going to be happy with a few million dollars a year.

Me personally, I much prefer a virtual keyboard with flick to type. 80% of what I do on my Z10 is LOOKING at content - emails, browser, content.

My personal opinion is that the market doesn't have anything particularly against PKB, but more that they value 2 things over it:
1. app ecosystem - BB niche market of PKB is overshadowed by their lack of apps
2. screen size - few people want to sacrifice screen space for a PKB. Building a small device with PKB get's you a small screen (Classic, Q10) or building a big device with PKB, makes it too big (Passport). I really believe the slider would be the best attempt for PKB.

Also, PKB makes a smartphone more prone to mechanical faults which are not as easily fixed as software ones.

[21stNow]

Bold sold more than S3. If I can remember not the s3 with no camera flash? Please do your research again. Samsung came into the game with galaxy s4 not 3.

Posted via CB10

Are you referring to the Samsung Galaxy 3 or the Samsung Galaxy S III? These are two different phones. I can believe that the BlackBerry Bold 99xx sold more than the Galaxy 3, but it certainly didn't sell more than the Galaxy S III. The last sales figures that I saw showed that the Galaxy S III had moved 40 million units as of January 2013. This was three months before the Galaxy S4 came out, so there were still sales of units happening after that date.

Unless you are referring to one specific country only, your claim has no basis. Even if you add in BlackBerry Bold 9000 to the sales figures, I don't think that you would get to 40 million units. If you did add in the 9000 series to the 9900 series, that comparison is not valid because you are comparing multiple BlackBerry models to one Samsung model.

[RH1Pearl]

Thanks RH1Pearl, but I don't want to write with a feather quill and ink any more than I want to use a stylus -- my choice of keyboarding is a matter of ease, accuracy and speed -- not tradition.

I'm not at all begrudging your right to compose short messages of the 13-letter "Hi honey, I'm home" variety. But I do want to know why the market can't or won't allow a few PKB phones to coexist with your videoplayers -- er, slabphones.

The "supreme importance" of PKBs is a matter of personal need and preference. First, I tend to be a bit verbose in my email/texts/FB posts, and second, during my 'busy season' I receive 70-80 emails or more a day -- many of these require a detailed reply, and even 13 letters cranked out on a 7" glass tablet gives me a headache. I also value accuracy, and do my own spellchecking (although I appreciate and use it all the same).

So many of us live in supposedly free societies that promote freedom of choice. For example, at my local drug store I can choose from a selection of over a hundred shampoos, and my supermarket offers dozens of varieties of cereals. I'm just wondering why the cellphone market can't support a small segment of PKBs. Or are we deluding ourselves when we buy into claims of "freedom" and "market choice"?

I don't intend to rub anyone's nose in it when I say that some of us create content (clarify assignments, send directives to committees, etc.) as well as absorb it. Yes, the bulk of my writing is done on a computer keyboard, but I need a portable option. I'm just surprised that so many are denigrating PKBs as dated, rather than simply regarding it as "another way of being."

Posted via CB10

For PKBs to remain available for a small and shrinking market, the business will have to turn into a Public Utility. There are so many empty public buses I see on roads that service small districts in Canada. That service, no matter how unprofitable it may be, will continue to run for public service sake.

The multitude of products that you see in stores is Brand Proliferation wherein a company will produce several types of similar toothpaste to hog as much shelf space in the supermarkets to crowd out the competition and reach every type of consumer taste. They are all pretty much the same products with minor enhancements but with eye-catchy packaging. The closest firm that does this type of production in the mobile market IMO is Samsung.

[CTU2fan]

You are confusing the beginning and end of things.
We'll exclude Apple though, because they revolutionised the whole touchscreen market. Them making a keyboard phone would just be silly.

The question is why Android manufacturers don't make PKB devices.
This is the most fundamental question you have to answer (you are saying that Android not having PKB is a reason for the market share. I am saying that the market share is the reason by itself).

How is it even possible, that no one tries to sell a PKB phone in one of the most competitive markets of our time?
Why would Sony rather exit the smartphone market, instead of trying to be different and get some market share with a PKB phone? Or what about HTC?

There is only one answer: there is no business case. The market wouldn't support it.
Supply doesn't magically create demand, simply because a product appeared.

The supply has to meet a certain demand, and if you have supply without demand... You basically get BlackBerry's performance. And the answer to the question why nobody makes keyboard phones in the Android world.

I don't disagree. Add in the additional cost of making say an S6 Edge with a slider keyboard vs the full touch version and it really doesn't make sense to make it when the demand isn't there.

I was suggesting that the difference between this 0.3% or 0.2% or whatever number we're going with and something like 5% is some of the points I mentioned. At some point the demand for PKB dropped to a level where it wasn't worth manufacturers continuing to build them. And at that point most of the folks who would've preferred a PKB weighed their options and bought full touch devices. And that left your 0.2%, people like me who cannot or will not use a VKB device, and will go out of their way to actively seek out PKB devices.

Not arguing with you here, but HTC and Samsung have both made physical keyboard phones in the past.

Samsung: Epic 4G, Captivate Glide, Stratosphere and Sidekick 4G and some others that I can't remember
LG: Optimus Q
HTC: G1, G2, EVO Shift and My Touch 4G Slide
Motorola: The DROID series (with only numbers after the name).
Other smaller OEMs such as NEC (Terrain).

Most of these are no longer made. When I ran into people that used these phones, most said that they almost never used the physical keyboards on them. The people that I see today that still use the DROID 4 say that they prefer it because of the physical keyboard.

My guess is that these OEMs don't make more phones with physical keyboards because they didn't sell well when they did make them. This leads to your point about the market not supporting phones with physical keyboards.

I had the Motorola Photon Q, basically the Sprint branded version of the DROID. I don't recall its specs offhand, but it came out in 2012 and was pretty competitive at the time. Solid device other than the hideously bad battery (which wasn't removable). I always used the PKB but I gave it to my friend when I got my Q10 and she only slides it out when typing something longish. It's a landscape slider and pretty big, so for quick stuff it's easier on her hands to hold it portrait wise and use the VKB.

Posted via CB10

[Joao Oliveira]

Most folks don't do lengthy text entry on their phones. They consume content. For which the bigger screen and all touch is more of a priority.

Yes they message, etc. But the virtual keyboards are OK for that.

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

This is spot on. I believe that having that bigger screen has more "weight" as advantage than having a proper keyboard for most people. I personally don't consume much media on my phone, i do A LOT of text input on it and It feels a lot more effortless typing in a physical keyboard, I don't even have to look at the phone to text.

I had to ship my passport to the UK to warranty, so it's going to take some time to arrive back, so i'm using a spare iphone 5 that we had at home. I can type very fast in the iphone, but if I'm walking, or doing somehting else on the mover, you just can't beat Pkb where I can type riding in a bycicle no problem at all. with virtual I have to be more focused, always looking at the screen. Can't wait to have the Passport back.

I much rather have a "real" keyboard in trade for a big screen, but that's me, those are my needs, and I know that most people don't have my comunication needs. I use my phone mostly as a working tool, I don't play much with it, and BB's with Pkb's are the best phones for me, I'm no brand loyalist.

[dbq10]

I was just thinking about missiles and drones being launched in the future from glass screens - Oops.

[tkulthenoble]

Are you referring to the Samsung Galaxy 3 or the Samsung Galaxy S3? These are two different phones. I can believe that the BlackBerry Bold 99xx sold more than the Galaxy 3, but it certainly didn't sell more than the Galaxy S3. The last sales figures that I saw showed that the Galaxy S3 had moved 40 million units as of January 2013. This was three months before the Galaxy S4 came out, so there were still sales of units happening after that date.

Unless you are referring to one specific country only, your claim has no basis. Even if you add in BlackBerry Bold 9000 to the sales figures, I don't think that you would get to 40 million units. If you did add in the 9000 series to the 9900 series, that comparison is not valid because you are comparing multiple BlackBerry models to one Samsung model.

I still can't believe gallant s3 with no camera flash sold that much and I'm talking about bold 9900

Posted via CB10