11-19-16 08:00 PM
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  1. DonHB's Avatar
    I saw a talk from a UX expert who used BB10 as his example of how introducing arbitrary uniqueness in a way that confuses your user is not smart.
    Previous experience impacts intuitiveness. It would be interesting to see how people who never used a smartphone or a computer would fare when using BB10 for the first time. Of course, it would be hard to find such people today.
    11-11-16 11:01 AM
  2. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    I had that exact experience: seeing people try BB10 in the store when it launched, and as soon as they tried to exit an app, they realized they couldn't [because nothing and no one explained the gesture navigation] and they just put it down and moved on. IMO, that was a huge failure on BB's part.

    BB10 is not intuitive (which means its functions aren't obvious to people who've never used it before), and while a certain amount of training can reward the user with an OS navigation scheme that clearly many here prefer, the fact is that training was necessary and BB didn't account for that. I've long been of the opinion that they should have put a Home and Back (virtual) button on the screen that could later be turned off in favor of the gestures by those who chose to do so. That simple choice would have eliminated the learning curve in the store that turned off a lot of prospective buyers.

    Of course, the interface was one problem among many, so perhaps it wouldn't have made much difference anyway.
    That's exactly what happened to me. I was a previous BBOS user, but I couldn't figure out the gestures when I played with the Z10 in the T-Mobile store. I gave up after 15 minutes and never touched another BB10 device.
    JeepBB likes this.
    11-11-16 12:13 PM
  3. TGR1's Avatar
    Nokia and BB outsold the original iPhone by enormous multiples. It wasn't until the 3GS and, really, the iPhone 4 that Apple really started to win any sort of serious marketshare away from the bigger players.

    So in other words they did have to get their product well rounded before they started to take off. The original iPhone had a lot of hype, but not that many sales actually.
    iTunes on Windows (despite how not-nice it was and is) apparently was a very significant driver.
    11-11-16 12:17 PM
  4. bobshine's Avatar
    There are tons and tons of thread about this... but simply put: App, lack of carrier support, "complexe" gestures, bad marketing
    11-11-16 12:22 PM
  5. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    BB7 had a better app store than BB10 when the Z10 was released. The scary part is that it still was better over a year later.
    Boosh!
    Ronindan likes this.
    11-11-16 02:02 PM
  6. early2bed's Avatar
    Branding is the one of the most power full tools in marketing, which has never been Blackberry strength.
    Except for all those years where a handset that people typed stuff into was not a smartphone but a "BlackBerry." That's the ultimate brand strength - like Coke, Kleenex, Jell-o, Band-Aid, Tylenol, etc., the product is known by consumers your brand. Your product can never die. In fact, I'm trying to come up with a product like this that ever lost that status besides a BlackBerry. Maybe Hershey Bar isn't used as much to describe a chocolate bar or, perhaps, Reeses peanut butter cups. Someone help me out, here. OK, Perrier, but the're still out there.

    Nokia and BB outsold the original iPhone by enormous multiples.
    The original app platform was really Palm OS (Newton, I know, but not really) and they had multiple licensees including Sony, Handspring, TRD(?), IBM Workpads, Kyocera, Symbol (amazing recall, I know). The entire webOS saga was based on the Palm OS install base expecting Palm to take back it's rightful place in the smartphone market. Kind of like the story of CrackBerry.
    DonHB and TGR1 like this.
    11-12-16 09:29 AM
  7. jegs2's Avatar
    BB10's fate will be that of all defunct and abandoned operating systems. Sure, there are and will remain fans and adherants.

    Heck, some insular machines still use even OS/2 Warp, and up to last year I was still using a phone running Palm OS, until Sprint discontinued support for data plans on the older Treos.
    DrBoomBotz likes this.
    11-12-16 09:59 AM
  8. Jamar Wright's Avatar
    You can bet that the vast majority of those 90% - the "defectors" - were well aware of BB10 (meaning marketing wasn't the problem) and chose the competition anyway.

    The big problem is the PRODUCT - all the marketing in the world isn't going to convince people to buy (or keep) a product that doesn't work well for them. And mainstream consumers don't want non-native apps, much less use "solutions" like Snap or Cobalt's Play Store and then have to hunt around for working versions of apps or patch and sideload them, etc. Most mainstream users could never figure out how - but wouldn't tolerate that even if they could. Plus, even with those solutions, there are popular apps that still don't work - and there's no way for them to know whether some new app that gets released next week or next year will work on BB10 or not. That's simply not acceptable for most people, especially when they can be virtually guaranteed that the new app or device or whatever will work with iOS and Android.

    The people that can tolerate all of the work and work-arounds to make BB10 work are BB10 enthusiasts, not mainstream consumers - and even the enthusiasts have plenty of complaints. Mainstream users expect to search the stock app store, click "install", and know that their app will be fully functional and continue to work when updated. That's simply not the BB10 experience, and expecting marketing to fix that is naive.
    Sounds about right to me.

    Posted via CB10
    11-12-16 10:13 AM
  9. Zeddepher's Avatar
    An alternative point of view is that BlackBerry didn't fail at all. It was destroyed by Apple and Google, as they systematically cornered the market, while BlackBerry was completely unaware of the pending threat.

    It's all very well blaming BlackBerry for being asleep, but Microsoft and all the other platforms (now long gone) were also caught napping.

    So BlackBerry should perhaps be given at least some credit, for still being in the device market (just) while so many others have either fallen into oblivion or been subsumed into the Android apocalypse. Even BlackBerry has now submitted to the Google empire and Microsoft will be next.

    In today's market, there is no where near the choices available before the market was cornered, and IMO that is bad thing. When choices are reduced, the customer has to pay more, for less.

    вℓαквєяяу ραѕѕρσят ѕιℓνєя є∂ιтιση
    sorinv likes this.
    11-12-16 10:31 AM
  10. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    An alternative point of view is that BlackBerry didn't fail at all.
    Sorry, but that's pure denial of responsibility. The Co-CEOs were very well compensated (with their investors' money) to maintain their leadership position in the market - and convinced those investors they could do so. They failed, by making a LONG series of poor decisions over a period of YEARS.

    There's no letting them off the hook for a colossal failure that they actively participated in. Business happens in reality, not in LaLa Land.
    11-12-16 11:26 AM
  11. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    An alternative point of view is that BlackBerry didn't fail at all.
    It is an alternative POV.
    Most people would agree that sleeping while the competition eats your lunch is a fail.
    JeepBB likes this.
    11-12-16 11:44 AM
  12. Zeddepher's Avatar
    It's just a bloody alternative way of looking at it. Just create more discussion... Jeez. So many sensitive souls...

    вℓαквєяяу ραѕѕρσят ѕιℓνєя є∂ιтιση
    11-12-16 12:14 PM
  13. Ronindan's Avatar
    It's just a bloody alternative way of looking at it. Just create more discussion... Jeez. So many sensitive souls...

    вℓαквєяяу ραѕѕρσят ѕιℓνєя є∂ιтιση
    that's not an alternative but pure fantasy.
    DrBoomBotz likes this.
    11-12-16 01:49 PM
  14. Loc22's Avatar
    It's just a bloody alternative way of looking at it. Just create more discussion... Jeez. So many sensitive souls...

    вℓαквєяяу ραѕѕρσят ѕιℓνєя є∂ιтιση
    Ha ha ha ha ha I don't know where most of the people here are from but they sure have a narrow mind. Some of them are not in touch with reality at all too...

    At least you are lighthearted about it though. Really there are 2 sides to the coin.
    11-13-16 12:43 AM
  15. DonHB's Avatar
    Sorry, but that's pure denial of responsibility. The Co-CEOs were very well compensated (with their investors' money) to maintain their leadership position in the market - and convinced those investors they could do so. They failed, by making a LONG series of poor decisions over a period of YEARS.

    There's no letting them off the hook for a colossal failure that they actively participated in. Business happens in reality, not in LaLa Land.
    One of the failures was not using Android as the API at introduction. This would have been for BB10 what Web tech was for iOS. Chen started with BlackBerry when Google Play Services were not widely used by developers. When Blackberry introduced the Amazon App store, I hoped it was an interim solution until they had Android working with the Flow UX. BlackBerry may have been able to create a viable non-Google Android "ecosystem" and had time to create a truly cross platform modern native API.
    11-13-16 12:01 PM
  16. conite's Avatar
    One of the failures was not using Android as the API at introduction. This would have been for BB10 what Web tech was for iOS. Chen started with BlackBerry when Google Play Services were not widely used by developers. When Blackberry introduced the Amazon App store, I hoped it was an interim solution until they had Android working with the Flow UX. BlackBerry may have been able to create a viable non-Google Android "ecosystem" and had time to create a truly cross platform modern native API.
    Not a chance. Not even a remote one.
    11-13-16 02:48 PM
  17. sorinv's Avatar
    Not a chance. Not even a remote one.
    You write that with such glee as if it was something that Google should be praised for.
    It's another form of bullying everyone: app developers, competitors and partners, to control the market.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by sorinv; 11-13-16 at 09:55 PM.
    11-13-16 05:04 PM
  18. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    You say that with such glee as if it was something that Google should be praised for.
    It's another form of bullying everyone: app developers, competitors and partners, to controll the market.

    Posted via CB10
    Its just business.
    11-13-16 07:59 PM
  19. Nguyen1's Avatar
    BB10's fate will be that of all defunct and abandoned operating systems. Sure, there are and will remain fans and adherants.

    Heck, some insular machines still use even OS/2 Warp, and up to last year I was still using a phone running Palm OS, until Sprint discontinued support for data plans on the older Treos.
    Well, I still use android 2.1. You want to talk about workarounds, you got it with android 2.1. Makes bb10 look like a piece of cake.

    Sent from my BlackBerry Passport SE
    11-13-16 08:49 PM
  20. cribble2k's Avatar
    Yes, but the thing is nobody even want to look at BlackBerry 10 let alone try it so how do they know that there are no apps? If only BlackBerry had a PR company to keep telling people that it's possible to download Android apps and teach people how easy it is to do so at least there will be people who would be thinking of giving it a look.

    There were just plenty of media reports saying that BlackBerry has closed its business or that its bankrupt and no rebuttal. There are also plenty of phone retailers that keep educating people that there are no apps and BlackBerry is very difficult to use with no rebuttal too.

    With this kind of scenario why would anyone who is even remotely interested to give this product a try want to unless they are stupid or very confident in trying new technology.
    I think more people then you think tried, and are aware of BB10. The problem is BlackBerry blew it with the first impressions.

    I bought my Z10 in February 2013. It had major problems with randomly rebooting. It took BlackBerry way to long to fix the issue, as outlined here:

    https://supportforums.blackberry.com...s/td-p/2232037

    I, much like everyone here, blindly followed BlackBerry into BB10, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt, and gave them time to fix it.

    Second, in the early days, you had to find apks, which you needed to convert to bar files, and then sideload onto BB10 (Android apps) . The ability to run apks directly didn't come until 10.2. Point is, the average person probably did not want to deal with it. And I highly doubt any of the sales people were educated enough to explain this to customers.

    First impressions of new products is a big deal, and BlackBerry blew it.
    idssteve and JeepBB like this.
    11-13-16 11:31 PM
  21. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Why did anyone think that BB10 could make it going alone when the Playbook tried and failed ?

    Posted via CB10
    sorinv likes this.
    11-14-16 02:25 AM
  22. idssteve's Avatar
    I think more people then you think tried, and are aware of BB10. The problem is BlackBerry blew it with the first impressions.

    I bought my Z10 in February 2013. It had major problems with randomly rebooting. It took BlackBerry way to long to fix the issue, as outlined here:

    https://supportforums.blackberry.com...s/td-p/2232037

    I, much like everyone here, blindly followed BlackBerry into BB10, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt, and gave them time to fix it.

    Second, in the early days, you had to find apks, which you needed to convert to bar files, and then sideload onto BB10 (Android apps) . The ability to run apks directly didn't come until 10.2. Point is, the average person probably did not want to deal with it. And I highly doubt any of the sales people were educated enough to explain this to customers.

    First impressions of new products is a big deal, and BlackBerry blew it.
    Yep, I led my company into Z10s virtually first day. The fact BB10 was so late to market actually gave us confidence that RIM had used the extra time to get it extra right!! Lol. SURELY they'd learned their lesson about pushing half baked Storm1 out the door! Surely. Our 9900s had suffered issues with early 7.1 versions at that time but we trusted BB valued their reputation and we eagerly jumped into Z10s. Our IT ordered and prepped over two dozen of them. At MY instigation. Lol.

    We expected a steep learning curve and, as advised by these forums, accepted that the newer & better OS just needed a little time. We were universally assured we'd be happy we'd abandoned the old 9900s and were eagerly expecting wondrous improvements in daily productivity. Despite some reliability bumps, BB had really done a great job with UX organization in BBOS. We blindly assumed they'd built on their 7.1 experience to create an awesome bb10... Lol

    After a couple days with the Zs, some usually VERY bright crew members started complaining that BB10.0 stood for "Barely Baked 10.0"... Lol. Assured by these forums, I doggedly assured my crew that we just needed time to get used to the "modern" technology and that we'd all ultimately be way more productive than ever once we mastered our Zs! After all, newer HAD to be better... EVERYone around here assured us that we were just clinging to old habits and that BB10 was great, perfect, and SO much better than 7.1 that we'd soon be getting twice the work done in half the time! Lol.

    About a month into it I had to suspect that BB10.0 wasn't only half baked but that batter wasn't even half mixed!! That key ingredients were clearly missing! Like baking a cake without flour! Lol. Ahrg!!

    My company's productivity had tanked but we were committed to sticking it out and assured ourselves that our problems were OUR fault. Lol. Several in my crew came to these forums seeking guidance and solutions and were flamed into the closet so deeply that, years later, I'm still the ONLY one of my crew or management who will post on these forums. Our IT guy felt especially abused. They still lurk and advise as great breakroom conversations... Guess I'm just thicker skinned... Lol.

    Nine months into the Z our productivity was still far, far below our 9900 experience of the previous year and we'd talked about the new Q10. I'm still the butt of jokes for clumsily crushing a HOT foam cup of coffee (with sugar & creamer! Lol) all over my Z while answering a VERY important call. I managed to complete the call but the Z was wrecked. Recalling our record productivity with 9900s, I opted to replace the Z with a Q. Stupid me, why did I expect the Q to come with toolbelt... Ahrg!!!!!! Fool me twice... Lol.

    Several of us toughed out the Q for another 3 months when a coworker failed to get a call properly ended on her Q. That client then listened to "shop talk" discussing his order AND his competitor's order. Also a client of ours, also bidding on the same project. That ethical client called me to explain what had happened and then disqualified himself from the competitive bid. Quite the embarrassment for us.

    Long story short, my three "smart guys" one day handed me an "old" 9900 and asked me to show them WHAT the Q does better than the Bold does for our use case. A few minutes with that Bold had me feeling like I was back home. Like I'd just slipped back into my most comfortable shoes! Despite being over a year since I'd touched a Bold!! Long story short, my crew of 26 staged a "mini revolt" and dragged out, or purchased, 9900s and our productivity set new records by end of the week! Our collective stress level turned Zen like! Haha. We've been on 99s since. As much as possible, at least.

    If Z/Q had launched with 10.2, that story might have turned out better. If the Q had been launched as Classic with 10.3, BB10 wouldve stood a chance with our company. So sad.

    I should note that my guys build our own apps, in house. They report that BBOS is FAR friendlier to dev than BB10. I don't claim to know anything beyond their reports but if true, it's easy to see how app devs would migrate to easier platforms... Fwiw.

    Sorry for the long post. Typing on 9900 is just TOO satisfying... Lol.
    JeepBB and TGR1 like this.
    11-14-16 02:42 AM
  23. linuslim's Avatar
    I don't think bb10 has failed on its own level. In fact it has received many good reviews and win many fans worldwide. I think the world is not ready for a third OS and physical keyboard phones. People like sexy things like mobile games and watching Youtube on the go. Many people hate the lack of Nokia innovation and when iphone came, it become a success overnight. Another reason is people associate BlackBerry as a business phone and will not relate themselves to this brand. And lastly is when people want to give it some chance, the app world just did not pick up as developers do not want to make app for another store that is no profiting. These are the factors during those times but maybe the opportunity has come again where we see apple and google are not innovative as they used to be. People are move savvy and aware the importance of privacy and data protection. Let see how the world welcome BlackBerry back to the table.

    Posted via CB10
    11-14-16 03:37 AM
  24. kvndoom's Avatar

    Sorry for the long post. Typing on 9900 is just TOO satisfying... Lol.
    No, that was an EXCELLENT post. I'd much rather read about the real-world problems people faced than all the "not enough marketing" vomit that keeps getting splashed on this forum.

    I've said myself that the Classic should have been the first phone they released, alongside the Z10. Would have helped 9900 owners transition much more easily.

    Blackberry Poptart SE - Cricket Wireless
    DonHB and Elephant_Canyon like this.
    11-14-16 05:08 AM
  25. Loc22's Avatar
    I think more people then you think tried, and are aware of BB10. The problem is BlackBerry blew it with the first impressions.

    I bought my Z10 in February 2013. It had major problems with randomly rebooting. It took BlackBerry way to long to fix the issue, as outlined here:

    https://supportforums.blackberry.com...s/td-p/2232037

    I, much like everyone here, blindly followed BlackBerry into BB10, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt, and gave them time to fix it.

    Second, in the early days, you had to find apks, which you needed to convert to bar files, and then sideload onto BB10 (Android apps) . The ability to run apks directly didn't come until 10.2. Point is, the average person probably did not want to deal with it. And I highly doubt any of the sales people were educated enough to explain this to customers.

    First impressions of new products is a big deal, and BlackBerry blew it.
    Well most of the people around me have never seen a BlackBerry Z10 or Z30 before I used it. Even if they saw it they still think it is an iPhone until today.

    Once they know that I'm using a BlackBerry they scoff at me and say why pay the additional $10 or $20 a month for BIS? Refuse to listen to the fact that BlackBerry 10 doesn't require BIS.
    11-14-16 05:15 AM
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