10-26-16 03:52 PM
153 ... 4567
tools
  1. ardakca's Avatar
    The analogy I would use is the manual transmission. They are getting increasingly hard to find. Mainly on Jeeps and high end sports cars.

    When I go back to my 9900, I can barely type. It is a painful experience. If had the same experience when I first used my Z10. People adapt.

    Those who do not currently use a VKB or never have used a PKB are unlikely to do so now.

    Posted via CB10
    But manual transmission is also desired by many.
    10-19-16 08:22 AM
  2. MikeX74's Avatar
    Thread title should be "Is BB keyboard IP valuable?"
    Agreed. The title suggests that there is value in the IP to begin with.
    10-19-16 08:57 AM
  3. idssteve's Avatar
    When you dig what you think is a "worthless" KB IP out of BBRY's dumpster, I'll certainly take it off of your hands.
    10-19-16 10:23 AM
  4. cgk's Avatar
    Agreed. The title suggests that there is value in the IP to begin with.
    I was trying to be even-handed but I take your point(s).
    MikeX74 likes this.
    10-19-16 11:09 AM
  5. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    Assuming that the Mercury releases, it'll be interesting to see if anyone takes a shot at a PKB. Possible markets: law, medicine, dirt cheap handsets, and the older demographic. Maybe a super high end expensive device that is unaffordable to the average person?
    10-19-16 11:50 AM
  6. _dimi_'s Avatar
    Agreed. The title suggests that there is value in the IP to begin with.
    It's worth at least Ryan Seacrests investment in Typo. Besides, BlackBerry has many keyboard related patents, you'd really have to delve into each one of them to determine their true value

    Posted via CB10
    10-19-16 02:38 PM
  7. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    It's worth at least Ryan Seacrests investment in Typo.
    "Seacrest was a co-founder of Typo and reportedly invested $1 million in the firm."

    BlackBerry kills the Ryan Seacrest iPhone keyboard - Jun. 1, 2015

    Why is the BBRY Keyboard IP valuable?-cf19b3c98d0cf2fcd16480ee05c1a4586725ac37c090a56f68b8a4716612e6c0.jpg
    10-19-16 03:24 PM
  8. MikeX74's Avatar
    It's worth at least Ryan Seacrests investment in Typo. Besides, BlackBerry has many keyboard related patents, you'd really have to delve into each one of them to determine their true value

    Posted via CB10
    Yup. And of course, BB make the boneheaded move of suing the product just about out of existence instead of licensing their "valuable" IP. Typical.
    10-19-16 03:55 PM
  9. _dimi_'s Avatar
    Yup. And of course, BB make the boneheaded move of suing the product just about out of existence instead of licensing their "valuable" IP. Typical.
    “[The] keyboard is our identity,” he said. “If you copy our keyboard, of course we need to assert that right… If somebody wants to license it they’re welcome to do that, but they can’t just take it.”

    John Chen

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyols.../#5953f43c2b0d

    Posted via CB10
    10-19-16 04:24 PM
  10. _dimi_'s Avatar
    "Seacrest was a co-founder of Typo and reportedly invested $1 million in the firm."

    BlackBerry kills the Ryan Seacrest iPhone keyboard - Jun. 1, 2015

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	cf19b3c98d0cf2fcd16480ee05c1a4586725ac37c090a56f68b8a4716612e6c0.jpg 
Views:	190 
Size:	45.2 KB 
ID:	410282
    There you go.. it's worth at least a million.

    Posted via CB10
    DrBoomBotz likes this.
    10-19-16 04:32 PM
  11. MikeX74's Avatar
    “[The] keyboard is our identity,” he said. “If you copy our keyboard, of course we need to assert that right… If somebody wants to license it they’re welcome to do that, but they can’t just take it.”

    John Chen

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyols.../#5953f43c2b0d

    Posted via CB10
    So BB is willing to license one part of their identity(their name and logo) to slap onto someone else's device, but couldn't be bothered to do it then?
    10-19-16 05:15 PM
  12. early2bed's Avatar
    It looks like Apple is going to try to introduce standard smart keyboards by 2018.

    BEIJING— Apple Inc. has teamed up with an Australian startup to turn the standard QWERTY keyboard into a blank slate.

    The new keyboards will be a standard feature on MacBook laptops, and will be able to display any alphabet, along with an unlimited number of special commands and emojis, people familiar with the plans said.

    Apple is aiming for a 2018 launch, these people said.

    The keyboard technology has been developed by Sonder Design Pty Ltd., an Australian startup backed by Foxconn Technology Group. The keyboards will use so-called E Ink displays much like those seen on Amazon Inc.’s Kindle devices.

    A selection of Kindle e-readers. Apple’s new keyboards will use so-called E Ink displays much like those seen on the Amazon devices.

    Tim Cook, Apple’s chief executive, discussed the MacBook plans with the heads of Foxconn and Sonder on Oct. 11 in China, the people said.

    The Guardian and a Reddit user reported last week that Apple was in talks to acquire Sonder.

    Foxconn and Sonder said they do not comment on potential customers or dealings with other companies. Apple declined to comment.

    A few customizable keyboards have reached the market over the years, including the “Optimus Popularis” keyboard by Art. Lebedev Studio, a Russian design firm. But that unit sold for more than $1,000, limiting its mass-market appeal.

    Although the Apple keyboard would be a standard feature, it is likely to hold added appeal to those who frequently type in more than one language, including people in international business and students. People who use software with specialized commands, such as graphic designers and gamers, are also expected to welcome the versatility of the device.

    For everyday users, the new keyboard would also make it easy for people to spice up their communications with emojis and other symbolic substitutes for words, which have gained widespread popularity through the spread of smartphones and social networking apps.

    For Cupertino, Calif.-based Apple, an eye-catching feature such as a customizable keyboard could help retain interest in a maturing product line.

    Apple’s main manufacturing partner, Foxconn, also hopes the project can help it move up the value chain, supplying more key components in addition to assembling devices. Sonder is part of Foxconn’s incubator program and the Taiwanese manufacturer plans to invest in Sonder later this year, the people said.

    Production of advanced components nets higher margins than device assembly. Foxconn has made other efforts to shift its business mix toward components, including its recent acquisition of Japan’s Sharp Corp.

    Sonder’s stand-alone smart keyboards will be launched later this year. The preorder price is $199.
    10-20-16 12:06 AM
  13. Prem WatsApp's Avatar
    Well, there's still a market for whips I hear, just not for horses.
    Whips and horses, just don't mingle the two words... ;-)

    As to the keyboard issue, ... and anything will go retro again at some stage, people might discover the benefits of a physical keyboard again, many miss it, and most have never tried a touch sensitive / hybrid one, that offers the best of both worlds...

    :-D

    •   "BB10 dead?" - "Let's dance the Danse MacaBBRY! ... or is it..?" ;-D   •
    10-20-16 05:26 PM
  14. anon(8063781)'s Avatar
    After learning about Motorola and prior art earlier in this thread, I started looking into the licensing issues. Anyways, here's a new fact (to me at least): Palm and Handspring licensed keyboard tech from RIM back in 2002 after RIM sued Handspring. RIM licenses keyboard technology to Palm | Blurb | Geek.com

    I wonder if BlackBerry's aggressive defense of their patents is one of the reasons no small company has made candybar style keyboard phones as niche products. I wonder what the licensing terms will be? As a keyboard addict, I hope the terms are reasonable.

    Another note on this patent madness: I was reading a paper that quoted RIM's financials for 2004-6 and showed that they spent more on litigation than R&D (much of which was undoubtedly related to fighting off -- and paying off -- NTP). https://www.lib.uwo.ca/files/busines...folio%20v5.doc What a wonderful state of affairs.
    _dimi_ and cgk like this.
    10-21-16 08:50 AM
  15. thurask's Avatar
    Well, there's still a market for whips I hear, just not for horses.
    BlackBerry enthusiasts are about as masochistic...
    10-21-16 09:35 PM
  16. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    BlackBerry enthusiasts are about as masochistic...
    Maybe it's like caring about that friend that keeps screwing up. You know they have it in them, and you keep hoping they'll turn their life around for the better. I dunno, no matter what the majority thinks, they done a great job in many respects, imho. It just sucks what they did with the other half of the glass.
    JeepBB likes this.
    10-22-16 08:53 AM
  17. anon(8063781)'s Avatar
    More details that would have an impact on the value of these patents.

    When Motorola and RIM were involved in patent litigation between 2008 and 2010, thumb-optimized keyboard patents were part of the dispute (RIM, Motorola counter sue in patent licensing dispute - Lexology).

    The eventual settlement in 2010 settled all outstanding worldwide litigation (which would include that keyboard claim), required RIM to pay a cash sum and royalties related to wireless patents, and involved the transfer of certain unspecified patents (http://www.rrmediagroup.com/News/New...ls/NewsID/5754). Given that the keyboard technology was part of the dispute, a transfer of that patent might have taken place.

    Anyways, when Google purchased and then sold Motorola, they kept the patents (https://gigaom.com/2014/01/30/google...out-just-fine/). So it's possible that Google holds the BlackBerry keyboard patents too.
    cgk and _dimi_ like this.
    10-22-16 10:52 AM
  18. cgk's Avatar
    Well maybe it's just me but this thread has been a wealth of really useful info. If google holds the keyboard patents then everyone who uses google Android has access to them..
    (Because in the past google has said it will defend against IP trolls by allow users of android the protection of their patents).
    10-22-16 11:25 AM
  19. _dimi_'s Avatar
    More details that would have an impact on the value of these patents.

    When Motorola and RIM were involved in patent litigation between 2008 and 2010, thumb-optimized keyboard patents were part of the dispute (RIM, Motorola counter sue in patent licensing dispute - Lexology).

    The eventual settlement in 2010 settled all outstanding worldwide litigation (which would include that keyboard claim), required RIM to pay a cash sum and royalties related to wireless patents, and involved the transfer of certain unspecified patents (http://www.rrmediagroup.com/News/New...ls/NewsID/5754). Given that the keyboard technology was part of the dispute, a transfer of that patent might have taken place.

    Anyways, when Google purchased and then sold Motorola, they kept the patents (https://gigaom.com/2014/01/30/google...out-just-fine/). So it's possible that Google holds the BlackBerry keyboard patents too.
    Thanks Shuswap for the great contribution. Unfortunately there are others who first praise you, only to then take small pieces of info from you to start basing their (often false) assumptions on.

    Now, if you could please help me with something I have been trying to figure out: the patent dispute between RIM and Motorola originally started because they were unable to successfully renegotiate an existing cross-licensing deal. Was it RIM or Motorola who insisted the other party would start paying 'outrageous' licensing fees in the new deal? Because if it was RIM who initially paid a fee to Motorola in their cross-licensing deal, and RIM then started litigation claiming Motorola had infringed upon their keyboard patent, you could think that BlackBerry was trying to get some sort of reaction from Motorola for better terms?

    Wouldn't you think that - since in the new deal it's RIM paying out a licensing fee to Motorola, this specific BlackBerry keyboard patent would not have been included since it was merely a matter of getting Motorola's attention? Keep in mind that Motorola could still have prior act, meaning they could continue to build Motorola-style keyboards, but that there is a fair chance of them (Motorola/Google) not being able to build BlackBerry-style keyboards. Motorola didn't try to get access to the BlackBerry keyboard patent in the first place ; but it was BlackBerry using the patent in order to get Motorola's attention. So since the keyboard patent was never in Motorola's interest, there's a very legit chance that it never became part of the new cross-licensing deal. Otherwise, we could assume that they would have produced at least one BlackBerry-style keyboard device since they settled back in 2010?

    Posted via CB10
    10-22-16 02:35 PM
  20. cgk's Avatar
    what makes it even more complex is most android OEMs were forced to sign deals with MSFT and as a result are covered by their patents.

    Also something else that isn't clear - when you are on your knees before king Google like blackberry are, desperate (failed OS that has cost billions and you need access to a winning OS that sells) for their favour what you agree.

    It might be that in return to access to google you agree to either cross license some patents or simply agree not to sue. Who knows?

    Very complex area.
    Last edited by cgk; 10-22-16 at 03:08 PM.
    10-22-16 02:57 PM
  21. _dimi_'s Avatar
    what makes it even more complex is most android OEMs were forced to sign deals with MSFT and as a result are covered by their patents.

    Also something else that isn't clear - when you are on your knees before king Google like blackberry are, desperate (failed OS that has cost billions and you need access to a winning OS that sells) for their favour what you agree.

    It might be that in return to access to google you agree to either cross license some patents or simply agree not to sue. Who knows?

    Very complex area.
    So now you're dragging Microsoft into the discussion? What about exclusive patents held by BlackBerry, do you honestly think that Microsoft (and possibly others) are now covered by this pool of patents, possibly held by Microsoft?

    With regards to your assumptions about Google, I can just tell you that BlackBerry is out of the hardware game?!

    "BlackBerry’s patents are a gold mine – if they ditch handsets"

    https://www.google.be/url?q=https://...ZTXQyifp2FozPw

    It's a very complex area. But if you start speculating just for the heck of continuing a discussion, the real info (backed by credible sources) gets lost.

    Posted via CB10
    10-22-16 03:23 PM
  22. _dimi_'s Avatar
    Unable to add the link (it's a PDF).. just Google "BlackBerry's patents are a gold mine – if they ditch handsets - VERITAS Investment Research" and you'll get there

    Posted via CB10
    10-22-16 03:29 PM
  23. cgk's Avatar
    So now you're dragging Microsoft into the discussion? What about exclusive patents held by BlackBerry, do you honestly think that Microsoft (and possibly others) are now covered by this pool of patents, possibly held by Microsoft?

    With regards to your assumptions about Google, I can just tell you that BlackBerry is out of the hardware game?!

    "BlackBerry’s patents are a gold mine – if they ditch handsets"

    https://www.google.be/url?q=https://...ZTXQyifp2FozPw

    It's a very complex area. But if you start speculating just for the heck of continuing a discussion, the real info (backed by credible sources) gets lost.

    Posted via CB10
    Leaving aside everything else i em do think at the very least MSFT are covered by patents owned by em.. msft.

    Maybe you meant to type something else.
    10-22-16 03:31 PM
  24. anon(8063781)'s Avatar
    Now, if you could please help me with something I have been trying to figure out: the patent dispute between RIM and Motorola originally started because they were unable to successfully renegotiate an existing cross-licensing deal. Was it RIM or Motorola who insisted the other party would start paying 'outrageous' licensing fees in the new deal? Because if it was RIM who initially paid a fee to Motorola in their cross-licensing deal, and RIM then started litigation claiming Motorola had infringed upon their keyboard patent, you could think that BlackBerry was trying to get some sort of reaction from Motorola for better terms?
    That's exactly the interpretation I saw in several articles about the dispute. RIM was paying licensing fees. RIM filed suit, arguing that Motorola was demanding unreasonable compensation, and added in a number of claims that Motorola was violating RIM patents. Motorola filed suit in other courts on the same day, alleging that RIM was violating its wireless patents. So it seems like the failure of negotiations led both parties to sue.

    Wouldn't you think that - since in the new deal it's RIM paying out a licensing fee to Motorola, this specific BlackBerry keyboard patent would not have been included since it was merely a matter of getting Motorola's attention? Keep in mind that Motorola could still have prior act, meaning they could continue to build Motorola-style keyboards, but that there is a fair chance of them (Motorola/Google) not being able to build BlackBerry-style keyboards. Motorola didn't try to get access to the BlackBerry keyboard patent in the first place ; but it was BlackBerry using the patent in order to get Motorola's attention. So since the keyboard patent was never in Motorola's interest, there's a very legit chance that it never became part of the new cross-licensing deal. Otherwise, we could assume that they would have produced at least one BlackBerry-style keyboard device since they settled back in 2010?
    Definitely. Anything's possible. That's why I emphasized that it was only a possibility, since neither RIM nor Motorola disclosed terms. However, at least one analyst thought that Motorola needed a patent settlement to be able to continue selling its Q series (RIM, Moto Take Patent Fight to Court - InternetNews.). I've seen no mention of prior art in these articles, and in order to have prior art, I think Moto would have needed to have produced a thumb-style keyboard before 2002, when Handspring and Palm agreed to pay royalties. In any case, we can be sure that the courts did not determine the issue of prior art between 2008 and 2010, since the parties agreed to settle instead, and the settlement involved all claims worldwide.

    As to the relevance of the keyboard patent in a settlement, I thought that it might have factored into the settlement because the reports said that the parties agreed to "transfer certain patents to each other," implying a two-way transfer (Google-Moto pulls in $228m following settlement with RIM ? The Register). An agreement on the keyboard issue could have been used to reduce RIM's lump sum settlement and royalty payments on Motorola's wireless patents, which were huge.

    Of course, this is all definitely speculative, since the terms of the agreement were not made public.
    _dimi_ and cgk like this.
    10-22-16 04:31 PM
  25. _dimi_'s Avatar
    That's exactly the interpretation I saw in several articles about the dispute. RIM was paying licensing fees. RIM filed suit, arguing that Motorola was demanding unreasonable compensation, and added in a number of claims that Motorola was violating RIM patents. Motorola filed suit in other courts on the same day, alleging that RIM was violating its wireless patents. So it seems like the failure of negotiations led both parties to sue.



    Definitely. Anything's possible. That's why I emphasized that it was only a possibility, since neither RIM nor Motorola disclosed terms. However, at least one analyst thought that Motorola needed a patent settlement to be able to continue selling its Q series (RIM, Moto Take Patent Fight to Court - InternetNews.). I've seen no mention of prior art in these articles, and in order to have prior art, I think Moto would have needed to have produced a thumb-style keyboard before 2002, when Handspring and Palm agreed to pay royalties. In any case, we can be sure that the courts did not determine the issue of prior art between 2008 and 2010, since the parties agreed to settle instead, and the settlement involved all claims worldwide.

    As to the relevance of the keyboard patent in a settlement, I thought that it might have factored into the settlement because the reports said that the parties agreed to "transfer certain patents to each other," implying a two-way transfer (Google-Moto pulls in $228m following settlement with RIM ? The Register). An agreement on the keyboard issue could have been used to reduce RIM's lump sum settlement and royalty payments on Motorola's wireless patents, which were huge.

    Of course, this is all definitely speculative, since the terms of the agreement were not made public.
    But all this is very interesting and unbiased info! Thanks for sharing your insight.


    Posted via CB10
    10-22-16 04:38 PM
153 ... 4567

Similar Threads

  1. Dtek70 Mercury - is this real?
    By vpad10 hacker in forum BlackBerry KEYone
    Replies: 169
    Last Post: 12-25-16, 10:56 PM
  2. Replacing the third blank home screen
    By makaiman in forum BlackBerry Priv
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 10-21-16, 05:34 PM
  3. Why do all upcoming phones want to be iPhone ripoffs?
    By Amritv in forum General BlackBerry News, Discussion & Rumors
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: 10-19-16, 06:44 PM
  4. Why does my Dtec50 freeze when watching a sports channel?
    By CrackBerry Question in forum Ask a Question
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-14-16, 10:11 AM
  5. Will there be a New Keyboard release with Android bfr 30 DEC
    By CrackBerry Question in forum Ask a Question
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-13-16, 11:54 AM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD