10-26-16 03:52 PM
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  1. ardakca's Avatar
    The child market evaporated when data became cheap. At one stage I was playing for BBM data for two nieces because it was great for them to communicate with friends. Then when decent data packages came on the market, they (and everyone else moved on).
    Doesn't change the fact about marketing and distribution. Saying there is no demand for pkb is pretty big. None of us may know until a big name OEM makes an effort.
    10-15-16 04:39 PM
  2. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    What if Apple releases an iPhone with a physical keyboard? What if Samsung does? Those are the top brand names currently out there... if they do it and nobody buys.. then I think we can safely say nobody wants physical keyboards. I mean, not to **** on Motorola, but how big of a brand is it in the eyes of the regular consumers?
    Samsung has, more than a few times with quality devices. And I'm not talking about their "add on" accessories. Samsung actually has released PKB devices, with keyboards that didn't "suck", and the sales were miserable compared to their VKB counterparts.
    10-15-16 04:45 PM
  3. ardakca's Avatar
    Samsung has, more than a few times with quality devices. And I'm not talking about their "add on" accessories. Samsung actually has released PKB devices, with keyboards that didn't "suck", and the sales were miserable compared to their VKB counterparts.
    Which data do you have? Which android pkb?
    10-15-16 04:49 PM
  4. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    I still wonder where the palm keyboard IP was - during the period when the company was split into two entities the IP was sold to a company called access (I think) and the bit HP purchased had a perpetual license for it.

    Thinking about it - is there any major player without existing keyboard IP?

    (And those who do not might be covered by the fairly secret licensing most gave signed with MFST).
    The problem with Palm devices, was that they had a good OS (and despite what people still like to recall, would probably stink by today's standards... the HTML based OS was great but now well outgrown) but the hardware on their last few devices were horrible. The keyboards being the worst of them. Tiny buttons in a cramped layout, which wore out rapidly. Palm died rapidly with the Pixel/Pre lines. Horrible pieces of hardware. Decent OS (for the time), but the hardware was suckity suck. Palm did do well with the bezel gestures, but they sacrificed too much to accommodate it.
    10-15-16 04:52 PM
  5. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Which data do you have? Which android pkb?
    Yeah... you being someone who's been around since Dec of last year (10 or 11 months), I'm gonna go ahead and let you research that one on your own. It's been repeated ad-nauseum on this site and others so many times, it doesn't justify repeating. Start by googling "samsung keyboard smartphone devices" and go from there. Go back as far as 2008 and work your way forward. There's just too much to list from then til now.
    JeepBB and Ronindan like this.
    10-15-16 04:58 PM
  6. portplayer's Avatar
    Royalties of which blackberry is paid by hundreds if not thousands of companies. but as far as i know, not one company pays bb a royalty for pkb phones.

    That could soon change if bb indeed makes that an option. As of now though, BlackBerry truly has an almost absolute advantage of having patents for their pkb phone; an absolute advantage that they may seek to diversify to other interested parties who will pay BB the royalties for using their pkb patent and pull BB out of their past hardware oriented business model for pkb phones for what they hope will be more profitable, being possibly licensing out pkb patents for other parties to use.

    BB has some really cool patents that do not ever get talked about and seemingly are up for sale at any given time. Pkb patents may or may not be next to take bids, but theres far more things I am interested in.
    10-15-16 05:02 PM
  7. canuckvoip's Avatar
    On the other side of the coin...
    I'm not convinced that BB has the desire or ability to launch frivolous/grey area (my partial definition of patent troll) patent infringement. I just don't think they can afford to lose, which leads me to think there may be merit.

    Additionally, what is the point of creating and holding a patent if you are not going to defend it? Might as well get rid of the entire process.

    The Typo keyboard is an excellent example of blatant infringement IMHO. I am amazed at anyone who thinks that BB should have just shrugged their shoulders and let that slide...er :>)
    10-15-16 05:27 PM
  8. ardakca's Avatar
    Yeah... you being someone who's been around since Dec of last year (10 or 11 months), I'm gonna go ahead and let you research that one on your own. It's been repeated ad-nauseum on this site and others so many times, it doesn't justify repeating. Start by googling "samsung keyboard smartphone devices" and go from there. Go back as far as 2008 and work your way forward. There's just too much to list from then til now.
    I don't really know why my membership date matters but here you go.

    http://www.mymobiles.com/phones/samsung/tag/qwerty

    So when samsung introduced its last qwerty phone it was in 2012 (the year Galaxy S3 made rounds) No OEM except Motorola Droid made an effort for qwerty phones with flagship specs. Being only in US (Verizon Exclusive?) and competing with Apple and all touch device hype. It did pretty well.

    Flagship pkb simply was not tried in anyways. The reason is because pkb phones cost much more to manufacture and OEMs don't want to cut their profits. It is simple as that. Guess being here for long does not matter at all right?

    I am talking about Android and iOS worlds.
    10-15-16 05:40 PM
  9. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Could you cite a reference that could support the statement that a PKB costs much more to manufacture. There have been a lot of cost summaries in the past and sure some cost more and some cost less but significantly so.

    I gather that it costs BlackBerry more but probably not so much for Samsung.

    No the real issue is the lack of demand.

    I do think there is sufficient demand for BlackBerry to make an Android PKB. Maybe 2 mill units per year world wide?

    A Curve priced Android BlackBerry would do reasonably well as a legacy device replacement in Indonesia and maybe Nigeria.
    10-15-16 07:13 PM
  10. ardakca's Avatar
    Could you cite a reference that could support the statement that a PKB costs much more to manufacture. There have been a lot of cost summaries in the past and sure some cost more and some cost less but significantly so.

    I gather that it costs BlackBerry more but probably not so much for Samsung.

    No the real issue is the lack of demand.

    I do think there is sufficient demand for BlackBerry to make an Android PKB. Maybe 2 mill units per year world wide?

    A Curve priced Android BlackBerry would do reasonably well as a legacy device replacement in Indonesia and maybe Nigeria.
    Well looking at it as an engineer. The casing would cost more to produce since you have more stuff to carve out (assuming a metal case like flagships) plus capacitive keyboard is another cost instead of just putting on the screen. Then you have to put same internals in a more crowded inner space to compete with flagships. So these would increase the cost to produce. Apart from all those, you'll need tool setups different then the other oems so the firm you outsource your device will charge you more.

    How am I suppose to demand anything if it is not produced? Or if I am unaware of the only one that is produced?

    I am not saying it will sell like hot cakes, but it will have a solid ground for keeping production and sake of product variations. If this rumored Mercury is successful in some way, we may see its successors be it BlackBerry designed or not.
    Last edited by ardakca; 10-16-16 at 04:25 AM.
    10-16-16 04:11 AM
  11. farmwersteve's Avatar
    I don't think we'll ever know how well a PKB'd iPhone would sell because Apple is making money hand-over-fist with their current design and that doesn't seem to be about to change any time soon... so there is no reason for Apple to offer anything different.

    I've seen no evidence that more than a small set of users are demanding a PKB device period... and I'm pretty sure that most of them are members of these forums! I've certainly seen no "please Apple, give us a keyboard phone" threads on the iPhone forums, so I doubt Apple's customers are interested in the "choice" you're offering.

    There is only "value" in a patent if somebody is willing to pay to license it -and they'll only pay if they see advantage/profit to themselves in doing so. So, I doubt Apple will be buying a PKB licence off BB anytime soon.
    So, your entire argument is that because it hasn't happened yet, therefore it will not happen... what a boxed way of thinking

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    _dimi_ likes this.
    10-16-16 06:39 AM
  12. JeepBB's Avatar
    So, your entire argument is that because it hasn't happened yet, therefore it will not happen... what a boxed way of thinking
    It has happened... several times ... read up the thread.

    Several manufacturers (though I'll concede, not Apple) have released a PKB phone - they don't sell in any significant numbers.

    No crystal ball is necessary to predict how a PKB phone would perform in the markets... just a glance through the historical sales records is enough.

    The demand for a PKB device you imagine to be present... patently (ha-ha) isn't there.
    StephanieMaks likes this.
    10-16-16 06:55 AM
  13. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Well looking at it as an engineer. The casing would cost more to produce since you have more stuff to carve out (assuming a metal case like flagships) plus capacitive keyboard is another cost instead of just putting on the screen. Then you have to put same internals in a more crowded inner space to compete with flagships. So these would increase the cost to produce. Apart from all those, you'll need tool setups different then the other oems so the firm you outsource your device will charge you more.

    How am I suppose to demand anything if it is not produced? Or if I am unaware of the only one that is produced?

    I am not saying it will sell like hot cakes, but it will have a solid ground for keeping production and sake of product variations. If this rumored Mercury is successful in some way, we may see its successors be it BlackBerry designed or not.
    There are plenty of tear down videos of the Q10 or 9900. Think of the keyboard as almost an extension of the screen. The cost differential or engineering is not the issue.

    The one engineering problem that BlackBerry has to be better at is balance. The device cannot be top heavy.

    Unfortunately, I do not know anyone who would buy a PKB but creative marketing could bring on a minor renaissance .
    10-16-16 08:53 AM
  14. cgk's Avatar
    There are plenty of tear down videos of the Q10 or 9900. Think of the keyboard as almost an extension of the screen. The cost differential or engineering is not the issue.

    The one engineering problem that BlackBerry has to be better at is balance. The device cannot be top heavy.

    Unfortunately, I do not know anyone who would buy a PKB but creative marketing could bring on a minor renaissance .
    The bigger problem is that apps have moved to large displays - the size screen you had with a 9900 and q10 is unattractive for modern buyers. You then have the option of a slider (adds thickness and movements) or a really top-heavy phone (as you yourself mention).
    10-16-16 09:14 AM
  15. ardakca's Avatar
    There are plenty of tear down videos of the Q10 or 9900. Think of the keyboard as almost an extension of the screen. The cost differential or engineering is not the issue.

    The one engineering problem that BlackBerry has to be better at is balance. The device cannot be top heavy.

    Unfortunately, I do not know anyone who would buy a PKB but creative marketing could bring on a minor renaissance .
    Q10 and 9900 internals are subpar. Let me put it this way, which chassis is easier to build? Rectangular slab or the one that has keyboard housing?

    For sliders the gap should be more.

    I'm not talking about 100 $ difference, difference could be 15 $ max? But when you sell 50 million iphones the amount is considerably large .
    Last edited by ardakca; 10-16-16 at 09:42 AM.
    10-16-16 09:15 AM
  16. Bbnivende's Avatar
    The bigger problem is that apps have moved to large displays - the size screen you had with a 9900 and q10 is unattractive for modern buyers. You then have the option of a slider (adds thickness and movements) or a really top-heavy phone (as you yourself mention).
    There are folks here on the 9900 Resurgence thread that mainly use their 9900's as a mailing device. For pure Enterprise communication, it would be great . Like the iPhone SE but for a PKB.

    But you are correct. The demand would be too small at the price point required .
    cgk and DrBoomBotz like this.
    10-16-16 09:52 AM
  17. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Q10 and 9900 internals are subpar. Let me put it this way, which chassis is easier to build? Rectangular slab or the one that has keyboard housing?

    For sliders the gap should be more.

    I'm not talking about 100 $ difference, difference could be 15 $ max? But when you sell 50 million iphones the amount is considerably large .
    The cheapest feature phones have PKB's.

    The real issue is not that PKB'S may cost more to manufacture. The issue is that the market is too small. If Samsung thought that they could sell a good PKB they would . A sale is better than none at all.

    Unfortunately the typewriter analogy is probably appropriate.
    10-16-16 10:19 AM
  18. anon(9721108)'s Avatar
    There are folks here on the 9900 Resurgence thread that mainly use their 9900's as a mailing device.
    Email, texting, whatsapp, BBM, Facebook. Twitter, CB App, Instagram, photo Editing, TuneIn Radio, Blackberry Maps, Google Maps (until recently, don't need it, BB maps works great) IMDB app, Youtube and uploading and watching videos, Associated Press News.

    We do a LOT more than just emails which is still unsurpassed by any other device for this purpose.

    The device is still fast. It was futureproofed with it's processor.

    There is no bloatware or adds to slow it down, BBM audio calling still works great despite what someone in another thread said, but he never used one to know.

    I posted a series of vids showing the still fast functionality of the 9900 doing various aspects but most do not care, they are here to mock despite not still currently using one

    Bam
    farmwersteve likes this.
    10-16-16 12:03 PM
  19. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Excuse me... CB 9900 resurgence folks are hobbyists that get out every last ounce of functionality left.

    I would suggest that the majority of BBOS devices still be used are in what we used to call third world countries where BBM is still popular.

    I have tried the CB app and Instagram and browsing on my retired 9900 and while it can be done the experience is not even close to current phones. The 9900 is a beautiful phone and that is justification enough.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by Bbnivende; 10-16-16 at 01:33 PM.
    10-16-16 01:07 PM
  20. anon(9721108)'s Avatar

    I have tried the CB app and Instagram and browsing on my retired 9900 and while it can be done the experience is not even close to current phones.
    I don't even bother with my 5C anymore, it is dead slow in comparison to the 9900. I think the fact that it was designed with ios7 in mind, it struggles a bit with ios 10.

    But of course a new iphone 7 would be faster.

    That said, I do not see any mass movement to PKB's in the future, there might be some buisness peeps who prefer them still but otherwise the future looks dim.
    JeepBB likes this.
    10-16-16 03:19 PM
  21. anon(9721108)'s Avatar
    I will make a vid showing how lightning fast my CB app works on the 99, look for it later today.
    10-16-16 03:21 PM
  22. Bbnivende's Avatar
    That is like saying we can all golf like Rory if we used his clubs.

    You are a subject matter expert. Phones OS's today need to be intuitive. Even Apple is continually adding features that no one know exists and users do not care.
    10-16-16 03:49 PM
  23. anon(9721108)'s Avatar
    That is like saying we can all golf like Rory if we used his clubs.

    You are a subject matter expert. Phones OS's today need to be intuitive. Even Apple is continually adding features that no one know exists and users do not care.
    yes I agree, new devices need some new feature or "gimmick" to keep people coming into the showrooms.

    Believe me my friend I am no "expert." I just wanted to drive the point home that it is still quite "versatile" for a few functions.

    Vid uploading and the results might shock you.
    10-16-16 04:18 PM
  24. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I just would just point out that keyboard short cuts , a big feature for BBOS power users, holds very little appeal to today's consumers. I am not sure how to market a PKB today or in 2017. Maybe as a retro device like the mini car .
    10-16-16 05:31 PM
  25. ardakca's Avatar
    I just would just point out that keyboard short cuts , a big feature for BBOS power users, holds very little appeal to today's consumers. I am not sure how to market a PKB today or in 2017. Maybe as a retro device like the mini car .
    Retro device with powerful internals. Kind of Mini Cooper I guess. There would be couple of million eccentrics going after the device . Because phones are not just devices anymore, they are like accessories.
    10-16-16 05:33 PM
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