10-26-16 03:52 PM
153 1234 ...
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  1. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    Billions or thousands............ great in-depth analysis! Let me stress that I don't know everything, unlike some other contributors here. However, I'm pretty positive that OEM's like Samsung, Huawei,... whom are desperately seeking to get their sales volume numbers up without losing too much margin, will try to diversify/improve their product offering whenever they can. It doesn't cost them a thing if they pay royalties to BlackBerry for every PK device sold.

    Posted via CB10
    It costs them the royalties.

    Do you assume a pkb is a competitive advantage?
    JeepBB and portplayer like this.
    10-14-16 10:22 AM
  2. JeepBB's Avatar
    But TODAY.. is there still a desire, need, or want to have a PKB device? Sure... but is that 10% of the overall smartphone market, or is it .00001%. The answer to that question is what would make the Keyboard IP worth Billions or worth Thousands.
    Given that a buyer could have bought the whole company for a few billion ($7B?, IIRC) back in 2013 when Thor put it up for sale, I doubt the PKB patents were worth billions even then when PKB use was more widespread.

    Fast forward to today, and how many PKB'd phones do you see during your travels?

    Interesting that buggy whips were mentioned earlier. I regularly see one of our local eccentrics driving a horse-drawn buggy through my village, and clutching a buggy whip! By contrast, I've seen one PKB'd BB10 device in four years. So, given that there a lot more eccentrics in the UK than there are PKB users ... if I had a choice of buying the buggy whips patent or the BB PKB patents, with a view to monetising it, I know which patents I'd go for!
    DrBoomBotz and Dunt Dunt Dunt like this.
    10-14-16 10:33 AM
  3. _dimi_'s Avatar
    It costs them the royalties.

    Do you assume a pkb is a competitive advantage?
    I'm sure they'll make the consumer pay for it? If you're the only OEM, obviously yes. Would you consider having exclusive rights to a hardware patent a disadvantage?

    Posted via CB10
    10-14-16 10:35 AM
  4. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    I'm sure they'll make the consumer pay for it? If you're the only OEM, obviously yes. Would you consider having exclusive rights to a hardware patent a disadvantage?

    Posted via CB10
    If I had to pay for it and nobody wanted it, yes.

    I'm suggesting that demand for a pkb is small and getting smaller.
    JeepBB likes this.
    10-14-16 10:46 AM
  5. JeepBB's Avatar
    I'm sure they'll make the consumer pay for it? If you're the only OEM, obviously yes. Would you consider having exclusive rights to a hardware patent a disadvantage?
    Several manufacturers have released a PKB phone in the past, so BB's patents are clearly not fundamental in nature, but cover aspects of "usability. I've used a few PKB devices in my time, and while I'll happily admit that BB's PKB is by far the best PKB I've used... the other PKB's have their fans. So, BB's exclusivity would be limited and it's only an advantage (to a business) if you can make significant money from it.

    Given the number of PKB devices for sale, or trailed as coming, it's pretty clear to me that no other phone manufacturer sees the PKB as offering any competitive advantage, still less a significant advantage.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt and DrBoomBotz like this.
    10-14-16 10:56 AM
  6. _dimi_'s Avatar
    If I had to pay for it and nobody wanted it, yes.

    I'm suggesting that demand for a pkb is small and getting smaller.
    Could that be because there's literally one option (PRIV) for that market currently? A phone that was priced too high, and where little marketing effort went towards. I'm sure Samsung would do a much better job, and PKB sales could add new customers (not necessarily replacements). Even if they sell as little as 10 mio devices per year, one of BlackBerry's initial targets, that could be 50-100 mio in high margin revenue each year.

    Posted via CB10
    10-14-16 11:11 AM
  7. _dimi_'s Avatar
    Several manufacturers have released a PKB phone in the past, so BB's patents are clearly not fundamental in nature, but cover aspects of "usability. I've used a few PKB devices in my time, and while I'll happily admit that BB's PKB is by far the best PKB I've used... the other PKB's have their fans. So, BB's exclusivity would be limited and it's only an advantage (to a business) if you can make significant money from it.

    Given the number of PKB devices for sale, or trailed as coming, it's pretty clear to me that no other phone manufacturer sees the PKB as offering any competitive advantage, still less a significant advantage.
    Okay, so you dismissed the fact that Samsung produced that keyboard add-on, even though it's ugly and counterproductive?

    Most OEM's are focussed on hardware aesthetics and software nowadays because spec improvements are barely noticeable and/or different from competitors. So unless each one of the Android OEM's have their own car-project running in the background to assure them of a future in hardware (since Android is not their OS), I would think that there is indeed interest to differentiate their hardware offering.

    We'll just have to see how this one plays out.

    Posted via CB10
    10-14-16 11:33 AM
  8. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    Could that be because there's literally one option (PRIV) for that market currently? A phone that was priced too high, and where little marketing effort went towards. I'm sure Samsung would do a much better job, and PKB sales could add new customers (not necessarily replacements). Even if they sell as little as 10 mio devices per year, one of BlackBerry's initial targets, that could be 50-100 mio in high margin revenue each year.
    I not sure what you are asking regarding the PRIV.
    Did you just make a Jenga tower of assumptions?
    10-14-16 11:41 AM
  9. _dimi_'s Avatar
    I not sure what you are asking regarding the PRIV.
    Did you just make a Jenga tower of assumptions?
    I didn't ask (you) anything regarding PRIV. Yes, I made some assumptions, like we all do around here.


    Why is the BBRY Keyboard IP valuable?-img_20161014_185737.png

    Posted via CB10
    10-14-16 11:58 AM
  10. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    Could that be because there's literally one option (PRIV) for that market currently?
    I didn't ask (you) anything regarding PRIV.
    Ok, fine.
    10-14-16 12:05 PM
  11. cgk's Avatar
    I'm sure they'll make the consumer pay for it? If you're the only OEM, obviously yes. Would you consider having exclusive rights to a hardware patent a disadvantage?

    Posted via CB10
    Bbry currently have the exclusive rights to that patent at the moment - how is that working out?


    About the same as BB10 is an advantage?
    DrBoomBotz and JeepBB like this.
    10-14-16 12:22 PM
  12. _dimi_'s Avatar
    If I had to pay for it and nobody wanted it, yes.

    I'm suggesting that demand for a pkb is small and getting smaller.
    Again, it wouldn't cost you:

    Royalties are typically agreed upon as a percentage of gross or net revenues derived from the use of an asset or a fixed price per unit sold of an item of such.

    Posted via CB10
    10-14-16 12:40 PM
  13. _dimi_'s Avatar
    Ok, fine.
    Let me know when you have figured out what the question was! ;-)

    Posted via CB10
    10-14-16 12:40 PM
  14. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    Let me know when you have figured out what the question was! ;-)

    Posted via CB10
    Sorry, I can't help you.
    Jack Chin likes this.
    10-14-16 12:50 PM
  15. ardakca's Avatar
    I don't know if ALL consumers really wanted touch devices or companies forced this since it is cheaper to produce. Pretty interesting case actually. Jobs declared war to stylus but Samsung held its ground. Look what we have now. BlackBerry's problem was not pkb phones died, BlackBerry could not compete in terms of OS and specs and quality. My 2 cents. I'm not saying pkbs will return or such. Pkbs might be MIGHT when foldable or stretchable screens and such gain ground who knows.
    _dimi_ likes this.
    10-14-16 01:00 PM
  16. _dimi_'s Avatar
    Bbry currently have the exclusive rights to that patent at the moment - how is that working out?


    About the same as BB10 is an advantage?
    Ok, so we're making progress. As you now acknowledge that they hold the exclusive rights, we'll have to see how it works out for them in Indonesia. I almost forgot that they are already partnering up with a carrier over there who will handle all of the manufacturing, distribution and marketing of devices for them. Next up: India, China,... I guess they already licensed their keyboard so no luck for Samsung after all.

    BB10 is getting NIAP certification (no joke!) and might be THE reason why they managed to hold onto a fair market share in the highly regulated industries. But for the future, secured Android is the way to go.

    Posted via CB10
    10-14-16 01:04 PM
  17. cgk's Avatar
    Ok, so we're making progress. As you now acknowledge that they hold the exclusive rights, we'll have to see how it works out for them in Indonesia. I almost forgot that they are already partnering up with a carrier over there who will handle all of the manufacturing, distribution and marketing of devices for them. Next up: India, China,... I guess they already licensed their keyboard so no luck for Samsung after all.

    BB10 is getting NIAP certification (no joke!) and might be THE reason why they managed to hold onto a fair market share in the highly regulated industries. But for the future, secured Android is the way to go.

    Posted via CB10
    Just as a technical point they aren't partnering with anyone in Indonesia.

    China and India is just talk and if Indonesia flops will never happen.

    And their own sales figures make if impossible for them to be holding onto a fair share in regulated industries - it's not possible with the numbers we get at the earnings.
    JeepBB likes this.
    10-14-16 01:21 PM
  18. _dimi_'s Avatar
    Just as a technical point they aren't partnering with anyone in Indonesia.

    China and India is just talk and if Indonesia flops will never happen.

    And their own sales figures make if impossible for them to be holding onto a fair share in regulated industries - it's not possible with the numbers we get at the earnings.
    They have a fair market share in the EMM world (=software) of the highly regulated industries. And BB10 did play a part in that.

    How much do you think their 44000 patents are worth? I'm talking your basement price in the current market environment. Don't want to hear anything about existing cross-licensing deals, expiration of patents,... give me a sales figure that you think could be likely ?

    Posted via CB10
    10-14-16 01:41 PM
  19. stlabrat's Avatar
    you own the patent does not mean you use it for full power... did you see new BB KB look like bold? passport got unique KB.. different design for sure. touch and feel may still got some BB feeling.. when you add new feature, you may or may not be able to utilize the patent (engineer trade off)... or it might be too expansive to use patented KB (MFG cost or limited CM choice you have, etc.etc... or just simply marketing mgr thought want some "new modern look" get away from the tradition... only take one KEY decision maker to change the whole dynamics...).
    10-14-16 01:54 PM
  20. anon(8063781)'s Avatar
    I think that was more about BB's annoyance that someone had so clearly copied a BB PKB and was trying to make money so blatantly from IPR theft. Once they'd stopped him (though only in Canada, or only in USA IIRC... I recall the judgement was limited in scope)... they also stopped the legal side.

    So, I doubt that if Samsung were to bring out a PKB'd phone that they'd need BB's help or IPR to do so, or would need to fear legal repercussions, because I just don't think BB's patents are that wide-ranging.
    I think this is spot on about the Typo. It was an obvious copy of the Q10 design.

    Motorola put out several phones with clearly BlackBerry-inspired keyboards, including the Droid Pro, Pro+, XPRT and Defy Pro. Those phones have the classic BlackBerry angled keys. Perhaps the differences (no frets, different key layout) were enough to avert a lawsuit, or maybe there was some kind of licensing agreement.

    If the patents weren't enough to stop those Moto keyboards (and that's an assumption), then the value is even lower than we might otherwise expect.
    JeepBB and Dunt Dunt Dunt like this.
    10-14-16 03:10 PM
  21. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Motorola put out several phones with clearly BlackBerry-inspired keyboards, including the Droid Pro, Pro+, XPRT and Defy Pro. Those phones have the classic BlackBerry angled keys. Perhaps the differences (no frets, different key layout) were enough to avert a lawsuit, or maybe there was some kind of licensing agreement.
    Actually, Motorola had beat RIM/BB to the punch. Motorola had already built physical keyboards similar (if not identical to) to the "built for thumbs" input. Technically RIM (now BBRY) copied Motorola, but RIM beat Motorola on the "first to file" patent concept, because despite Motorola having already designed in 3+ years prior, they never bothered to patent, because in those days it wasn't expected that somebody would patent such a basic concept. Motorola built it first, RIM/BBRY copied it, but only Motorola never bothered to patent. That's why to this day, Motorola can build identical keyboards to match BBRY's keyboards, because Motorola was able to prove prior art. There was a very long court battle over just this very concept, and Motorola won on prior art. So to this day, Motorola can duplicate BBRY's keyboards without fear of being sued, and are exempt.

    In a nutshell... RIM/BBRY stole the design from Motorola. Motorola didn't put out BB inspired keyboards. BB put out Motorola inspired.

    And now with Lenovo owning Motorola, Lenovo now gets that same gratis being the owner of Motorola.
    Last edited by DenverRalphy; 10-14-16 at 05:09 PM.
    cgk, Bbnivende, _dimi_ and 4 others like this.
    10-14-16 04:51 PM
  22. itsyaboy's Avatar
    I am still thinking of the potential future where smartphones can connect with a multitude of display screens without any cables... offering a full desktop experience on the larger screen. And then, a touch enabled keyboard like the Passport (though further improved) could do service for a mouse and keyboard. Then again, what is the chance you'll encounter a display screen without a full keyboard?

    Posted via CB10
    10-14-16 05:37 PM
  23. Nguyen1's Avatar
    I want a future with 3d keyboards projected from my smartphone, operating on induction principles so I can type in air!

    Sent from my BlackBerry Passport SE
    anon(8063781) and JeepBB like this.
    10-14-16 05:50 PM
  24. anon(8063781)'s Avatar
    Actually, Motorola had beat RIM/BB to the punch. Motorola had already built physical keyboards similar (if not identical to) to the "built for thumbs" input. Technically RIM (now BBRY) copied Motorola, but RIM beat Motorola on the "first to file" patent concept, because despite Motorola having already designed in 3+ years prior, they never bothered to patent, because in those days it wasn't expected that somebody would patent such a basic concept. Motorola built it first, RIM/BBRY copied it, but only Motorola never bothered to patent. That's why to this day, Motorola can build identical keyboards to match BBRY's keyboards, because Motorola was able to prove prior art. There was a very long court battle over just this very concept, and Motorola won on prior art. So to this day, Motorola can duplicate BBRY's keyboards without fear of being sued, and are exempt.

    In a nutshell... RIM/BBRY stole the design from Motorola. Motorola didn't put out BB inspired keyboards. BB put out Motorola inspired.

    And now with Lenovo owning Motorola, Lenovo now gets that same gratis being the owner of Motorola.

    Hey thanks for the GREAT explanation!

    Here's to hoping for Lenovo keyboard phones in the future... if anyone can build a nice keyboard, it's them.
    10-14-16 06:53 PM
  25. BB-JAM215's Avatar
    I don't know if ALL consumers really wanted touch devices or companies forced this since it is cheaper to produce. ...
    Cost doesn't appear to be a significant issue for all touch vs keyboard as some of the lowest cost phones sold by London Drugs in Canada are keyboard phones in the $30 to $60 range.
    10-14-16 08:51 PM
153 1234 ...

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