10-26-16 03:52 PM
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  1. cgk's Avatar
    One of the central concepts of the BBRY faith is the PKB IP is valuable and companies desperately want it.

    Without resorting to "it's valuable because it's valuable" can someone provide a rationale or argument for this ?
    Last edited by cgk; 10-13-16 at 01:14 PM.
    10-13-16 12:56 PM
  2. JeepBB's Avatar
    IMO the PKB patents for the PKB are valuable in the same way as various typewriter patents are valuable - which would be somewhere between worthless and not much. So I can't help you in your quest for answers I'm afraid.

    I realise that I'm going to receive outraged responses from BB9900 and Q10 diehards, but the world has moved on.

    For me personally, I can swype long and accurate texts with the VKB's on my last few phones much faster than I could ever type on my 9700! All of which time-saving makes me more productive. And I'm sure that I'm not alone in that - IIRC all of the speed typing records are now held by VKB's.
    10-13-16 01:16 PM
  3. cgk's Avatar
    IMO the PKB patents for the PKB are valuable in the same way as various typewriter patents are valuable - which would be somewhere between worthless and not much. So I can't help you in your quest for answers I'm afraid.

    I realise that I'm going to receive outraged responses from BB9900 and Q10 diehards, but the world has moved on.

    For me personally, I can swype long and accurate texts with the VKBs on my last few phones much faster than I could ever type on my 9700! All of which time-saving makes me more productive. And I'm sure that I'm not alone in that - IIRC all of the speed typing records are now held by VKB's.

    Part of the reason I asked is that on another thread people were talking about old PKB phones they owned and as far as I can tell every single major player made a keyboard phone at some stage so must either own their own keyboard IP or have access to it. Nokia made various keyboard phones which sold in their millions and must have ended up somewhere.

    So if someone wants to make a keyboard phone - what do they need BBRY or their IP for?
    10-13-16 01:22 PM
  4. ardakca's Avatar
    Well it might not be limited for mobile keyboards.
    10-13-16 01:28 PM
  5. JeepBB's Avatar
    Part of the reason I asked is that on another thread people were talking about old PKB phones they owned and as far as I can tell every single major player made a keyboard phone at some stage so must either own their own keyboard IP or have access to it. Nokia made various keyboard phones which sold in their millions and must have ended up somewhere.

    So if someone wants to make a keyboard phone - what do they need BBRY or their IP for?
    IIRC, some of BB's patents were for the little things that made their PKB's so nice to use... like the way the keys had that curve that helped your thumbs locate and hit the right keys. I don't remember the Nokia I once used being as "nice" (subjective I know) to type on. I doubt BB ever had the lock on the entire concept of PKB's - as you say, there were several makers of PKB'd phones back in the day ... which was when BB had money and clout, so I'm sure if BB did have an all-encompassing PKB patent, their lawyers would have done something to enforce it when it was valuable.

    So, I'll stick to my original answer - BB's PKB IPR, in today's world, is worth something between nothing and not much.
    cgk and kirson like this.
    10-13-16 01:34 PM
  6. cgk's Avatar
    I don't remember the Nokia I once used being as "nice" (subjective I know) to type on.
    I had an e phone and also a couple of treos (which raises the question of owns that IP because believe or not it didn't go to HP) and I also had a Motorola candybar. You could be right it was nicer but the E series phones sold in their millions so it was clear this didn't impact sales...

    Well it might not be limited for mobile keyboards.
    True but I'm not clear what other application it has that anyone would pay for?
    10-13-16 01:37 PM
  7. thurask's Avatar
    BlackBerry evidently thinks it's valuable enough to go patent trolling with it, as evidenced by that Typo thing.
    cgk, kirson, _dimi_ and 1 others like this.
    10-13-16 01:37 PM
  8. cgk's Avatar
    BlackBerry evidently thinks it's valuable enough to go patent trolling with it, as evidenced by that Typo thing.
    That's an excellent point!
    anon(5597702) likes this.
    10-13-16 01:38 PM
  9. Andy_bb_king's Avatar
    I have the answer but I won't tell you because it is pointless anyway for you.

    Posted from my trusted Passport
    10-13-16 01:43 PM
  10. thurask's Avatar
    I have the answer but I won't tell you because it is pointless anyway for you.

    Posted from my trusted Passport
    Is it "it's valuable because it's valuable"?
    JeepBB, cgk and Dunt Dunt Dunt like this.
    10-13-16 01:47 PM
  11. JeepBB's Avatar
    BlackBerry evidently thinks it's valuable enough to go patent trolling with it, as evidenced by that Typo thing.
    I think that was more about BB's annoyance that someone had so clearly copied a BB PKB and was trying to make money so blatantly from IPR theft. Once they'd stopped him (though only in Canada, or only in USA IIRC... I recall the judgement was limited in scope)... they also stopped the legal side.

    So, I doubt that if Samsung were to bring out a PKB'd phone that they'd need BB's help or IPR to do so, or would need to fear legal repercussions, because I just don't think BB's patents are that wide-ranging.
    anon(8063781) likes this.
    10-13-16 02:10 PM
  12. ardakca's Avatar
    We don't even know BlackBerry patents. They might have great stuff under their sleeves. Since information is very limited I don't see any value discussing the matter. If they see value then there might be. If they have the capacitive keyboard for instance, I would love to use my laptop keys as a trackpad which will help the overall weight and dimensions. Stuff like that. Who knows.
    10-13-16 03:14 PM
  13. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    The value of a pkb is the number of people who prefer it and the strength of the preference.

    If 100M people will pay a $100.00 premium for pkb then it's quite valuable.
    If it's only 100K people then the value is much less.
    I guess the number is somewhere in between.
    10-13-16 03:32 PM
  14. cgk's Avatar
    We don't even know BlackBerry patents. They might have great stuff under their sleeves.
    Maybe but Microsoft and everyone who kicked the tyres when they were up for sale would have a valuation and had some idea what IP they possessed - they all passed. At the time, they were worth $4 billion which is pocket-change to MSFT.
    10-13-16 03:32 PM
  15. cgk's Avatar
    I think that was more about BB's annoyance that someone had so clearly copied a BB PKB and was trying to make money so blatantly from IPR theft. Once they'd stopped him (though only in Canada, or only in USA IIRC... I recall the judgement was limited in scope)... they also stopped the legal side.

    So, I doubt that if Samsung were to bring out a PKB'd phone that they'd need BB's help or IPR to do so, or would need to fear legal repercussions, because I just don't think BB's patents are that wide-ranging.
    Well isn't you answer the fact that they didn't sue Samsung over their keyboard cover?
    JeepBB likes this.
    10-13-16 03:33 PM
  16. John Albert's Avatar
    It simply doesn't have any value. Every company ditched PK since ages, even BlackBerry ditched hardware all together.
    Its market is the very few Passport and classic owners.
    10-13-16 03:43 PM
  17. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I'm sure the patents for rotary phones still has some value....


    TIME - March 31, 2014
    Typo plans to appeal, though the company has said that it may go out of business if it can’t fulfill orders. As it stands, Typo has sold about 4,000, suggesting that the vast majority of iPhone users are happy enough typing on a touchscreen.

    If it’s any consolation, Typo didn’t win us over when we tried it at CES. Because the iPhone is narrower than BlackBerry’s smartphones, the keys are much more cramped, and they feel spongier as well. Bluetooth also isn’t the most elegant approach, as it requires a pairing process and a separate USB charger for the case itself.

    Still, BlackBerry’s court victory could prevent Typo from coming out with improved products over time, and may scare away other startups. Given that BlackBerry’s new turnaround plan involves a bigger focus on keyboard-equipped phones, the message is clear: If you want a smartphone with a good physical keyboard, you shouldn’t bother with an iPhone.

    A whole 4,000 of those they sold.... no wonder they threw in the towel.
    JeepBB likes this.
    10-13-16 03:51 PM
  18. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I can see a market for a low end Android PKB in Asia. Maybe five bucks a phone. In the high end market the BlackBerry PKB has some value but not for licensing.
    10-13-16 06:52 PM
  19. stlabrat's Avatar
    KB IP value: (1) it still best in the field - copy cat imitation still try to grasp the curve, the shape, the back lit, - typo is a example. (it is like Hollywood movie star, fake Elvis shows the true value of the real Elvis even after his passing). (2) reliability - bbos7 still going strong with left over access fee - check the financial statement, how old are those devices? apparently, still kicking. - typo only last one month or less (i remember reading some post by kevin or someone... i could be wrong... but it definitely not last very long compare to the BB KB). (3) overall industry design - bold curved KB plus metal rib. understatement of richness, but functionally better. it is hard to imitate without infringe the patent. (4) the optical track pad and track ball plus the programmable convenient key on the side and short cut in software are good overall package. - some user control feature, but limited to still has design control.. (fast, medium, slow movement for optical track pad sensing for example (5) automatic on/off back lit light based on user environment. etc. etc. I am sure it is still has a value for the whole package.. but pick bone here and there, you will lost majority of the value (software/hardware integration). IMHO.
    cgk likes this.
    10-14-16 09:16 AM
  20. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    KB IP value: (1) it still best in the field - copy cat imitation still try to grasp the curve, the shape, the back lit, - typo is a example. (it is like Hollywood movie star, fake Elvis shows the true value of the real Elvis even after his passing). (2) reliability - bbos7 still going strong with left over access fee - check the financial statement, how old are those devices? apparently, still kicking. - typo only last one month or less (i remember reading some post by kevin or someone... i could be wrong... but it definitely not last very long compare to the BB KB). (3) overall industry design - bold curved KB plus metal rib. understatement of richness, but functionally better. it is hard to imitate without infringe the patent. (4) the optical track pad and track ball plus the programmable convenient key on the side and short cut in software are good overall package. - some user control feature, but limited to still has design control.. (fast, medium, slow movement for optical track pad sensing for example (5) automatic on/off back lit light based on user environment. etc. etc. I am sure it is still has a value for the whole package.. but pick bone here and there, you will lost majority of the value (software/hardware integration). IMHO.
    The best and most reliable buggy whip is not very valuable.
    10-14-16 09:25 AM
  21. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    KB IP value: (1) it still best in the field - copy cat imitation still try to grasp the curve, the shape, the back lit, - typo is a example. (it is like Hollywood movie star, fake Elvis shows the true value of the real Elvis even after his passing). (2) reliability - bbos7 still going strong with left over access fee - check the financial statement, how old are those devices? apparently, still kicking. - typo only last one month or less (i remember reading some post by kevin or someone... i could be wrong... but it definitely not last very long compare to the BB KB). (3) overall industry design - bold curved KB plus metal rib. understatement of richness, but functionally better. it is hard to imitate without infringe the patent. (4) the optical track pad and track ball plus the programmable convenient key on the side and short cut in software are good overall package. - some user control feature, but limited to still has design control.. (fast, medium, slow movement for optical track pad sensing for example (5) automatic on/off back lit light based on user environment. etc. etc. I am sure it is still has a value for the whole package.. but pick bone here and there, you will lost majority of the value (software/hardware integration). IMHO.
    1) Agree
    2) Huge market for replacement keyboards
    3) when is the last time they built on of those? Trend today is thinner with almost no RIM or Band around the phone.
    4) Does it work with Android? Think it would take much more work than anyone would invest into making that work anymore
    5) Other keyboard devices have backlighting...

    Typo was introduced at CES 2014... BlackBerry didn't close them down till June 2015. If that 4,000 units was all that was sold in that period...

    But TODAY.. is there still a desire, need, or want to have a PKB device? Sure... but is that 10% of the overall smartphone market, or is it .00001%. The answer to that question is what would make the Keyboard IP worth Billions or worth Thousands.
    JeepBB likes this.
    10-14-16 09:32 AM
  22. Bla1ze's Avatar
    I think the value comes from what they can sue for when someone violates the patents lol. As for why they didn't sue Samsung, well, maybe they licensed some IP, maybe BlackBerry agreed not to go after them at that time, they do have some partnerships in play or maybe BlackBerry just saw how ugly it was and realized no one would mistake that for a BlackBerry keyboard and they'd lose the case anyway.
    JeepBB and cgk like this.
    10-14-16 09:37 AM
  23. _dimi_'s Avatar
    Well isn't you answer the fact that they didn't sue Samsung over their keyboard cover?
    Comparing it to the Samsung keyboard is just silly.. have you even seen one?! When Samsung launched it, everybody here laughed because it's a sad piece of engineering. When Typo launched their keyboard, although still inferior to BlackBerry's, we all knew that BlackBerry would be going after them. And BlackBerry won.

    Samsung is smarter than Typo. They knew how far they could go without getting into a lawsuit with BlackBerry.

    Posted via CB10
    10-14-16 09:58 AM
  24. stlabrat's Avatar
    1) Agree
    2) Huge market for replacement keyboards
    3) when is the last time they built on of those? Trend today is thinner with almost no RIM or Band around the phone.
    4) Does it work with Android? Think it would take much more work than anyone would invest into making that work anymore
    5) Other keyboard devices have backlighting...

    Typo was introduced at CES 2014... BlackBerry didn't close them down till June 2015. If that 4,000 units was all that was sold in that period...

    But TODAY.. is there still a desire, need, or want to have a PKB device? Sure... but is that 10% of the overall smartphone market, or is it .00001%. The answer to that question is what would make the Keyboard IP worth Billions or worth Thousands.
    (3) bold keyboard is not the same keyboard you have on bbdriod... industry design are different.
    (4) work with driod? don't know. if someone treated as iconic KB for BB, BB should utilize it. or who ever droid should license it and get it working on their advantage. small price pay for IP per unit bases to get a full package if they want.
    (5) there is backlighting ... but not the same. (light temperature, scattering, without hurt your eyes but sufficient, and not use too much battery power... like the 3 color LED - programmable, but ignored by many users... devil is in the details...just take a look at your car headlight, everybody got LED headlight, how many are good looking and warm with true color? beam quality? projection distance? check consumer report may be tell you the difference.. but most of car all have LED light (some running really hot and burn battery like no tomorrow and not lasting that long either--- 30,000 hour LED life? check replacement house if they are still in business ;-).
    10-14-16 10:07 AM
  25. _dimi_'s Avatar
    1) Agree
    2) Huge market for replacement keyboards
    3) when is the last time they built on of those? Trend today is thinner with almost no RIM or Band around the phone.
    4) Does it work with Android? Think it would take much more work than anyone would invest into making that work anymore
    5) Other keyboard devices have backlighting...

    Typo was introduced at CES 2014... BlackBerry didn't close them down till June 2015. If that 4,000 units was all that was sold in that period...

    But TODAY.. is there still a desire, need, or want to have a PKB device? Sure... but is that 10% of the overall smartphone market, or is it .00001%. The answer to that question is what would make the Keyboard IP worth Billions or worth Thousands.
    Billions or thousands............ great in-depth analysis! Let me stress that I don't know everything, unlike some other contributors here. However, I'm pretty positive that OEM's like Samsung, Huawei,... whom are desperately seeking to get their sales volume numbers up without losing too much margin, will try to diversify/improve their product offering whenever they can. It doesn't cost them a thing if they pay royalties to BlackBerry for every PK device sold.

    Posted via CB10
    10-14-16 10:13 AM
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